BA Holdpool

[White Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Seosan

Serious question; may I ask what’s so bad with the rostering at the moment? I work for a large A320 operator in Europe and across this whole summer have had nothing but short notice changes, changes on report, standbys galore, liberal use of discretion etc. I always presumed BA was a more stable ship. Is it just the most junior on the list getting these reserve blocks?

BA rostering is still very stable once the roster is published. SH is being affected by large numbers of cancellations this summer though.
I think what the above are complaining about is
1) the new(ish) rostering preferences system which is not giving as optimum outputs as it had previously - even the very top pilots who should be able to nearly write their own rosters, are now having what they've asked for denied, and instead assigned trips they don't want over days they want off. Admittedly the system has some funny quirks which I can't explain. I'm very junior and don't ask for much, I seem to get about half of what I've requested.
2) the new short (14 day) reserve periods which the company is making the most of, resulting in a reserve period every month for many pilots. This must be very frustrating particularly for commuters and those with responsibilities that need to be planned in advance. But if you don't really mind reserve it's less of an issue.

hopefully you'll get a detailed response from someone at the SH coalface (I'm LH) but I don't see it as bad as some of those who posted above

[thetimesreader84]

I think White Van Driver covered the main points. Just to add, on SH it's a 6 day reserve not 14 (which means it's possible to be assigned 2 in a month - rare, but it has happened). One of the main gripes is the seniority gradient for roster bidding on short haul. Maybe it's a bit more equitable on your LH fleet, but people at the top of P32 are writing their rosters, and anyone >40% seniority can guarantee pretty much every weekend off. The flip side is if you're <40%, you'll get pretty much no weekends off - the divide (at least going by ibid) is that sharp. Given most people originally bid SH for lifestyle reasons (ability to be home, no jetlag etc) it's a real issue. It's am issue no-one seems to want to try and solve, when I raised it with the union I was (to paraphrase) told "it's always been like this for junior pilots, what do you expect".

Can't say for all fleets but SH is not a nice place to be right now.

[3Greens]

Originally Posted by thetimesreader84

I think White Van Driver covered the main points. Just to add, on SH it's a 6 day reserve not 14 (which means it's possible to be assigned 2 in a month - rare, but it has happened). One of the main gripes is the seniority gradient for roster bidding on short haul. Maybe it's a bit more equitable on your LH fleet, but people at the top of P32 are writing their rosters, and anyone >40% seniority can guarantee pretty much every weekend off. The flip side is if you're <40%, you'll get pretty much no weekends off - the divide (at least going by ibid) is that sharp. Given most people originally bid SH for lifestyle reasons (ability to be home, no jetlag etc) it's a real issue. It's am issue no-one seems to want to try and solve, when I raised it with the union I was (to paraphrase) told "it's always been like this for junior pilots, what do you expect".

Can't say for all fleets but SH is not a nice place to be right now.

just to be correct. You CANNOT be ASSIGNED two SRP in one month.

[Alrosa]

It’s worth bearing in mind that there will be individuals applying to the current BA campaign that would be over the moon to be offered BA SH, despite the current issues outlined above - and that is simply because BA SH is FAR from the worst option out there.

There are eligible applicants currently working for some truly atrocious European operators out there with terrible rosters, abusive management and less than professional operating behaviour being exhibited on the flightdeck. This is no exaggeration, and it is happening in Europe.

I’m not here to defend BA management or BALPA or whoever else - or wave the BA flag, and tell everyone how amazing BA is, or how much better BA is than Virgin, TUI or anyone else….all of that is very much dependent on your individual circumstances, and what you want out of a flying career - but there will be plenty of applicants for whom BA SH would represent a MASSIVE improvement.

If you can’t understand that, consider yourself very fortunate. I speak from experience. BA is not what it was, I agree with that - but there are some truly shocking operators out there…

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by G SXTY

Just to reinforce the above posts…

As things stand, anyone joining right now is signing up to years of open-ended and variable pay cuts. Even if you can find our current pay scales (and good luck with that, because I can’t) they are meaningless: the ‘Delta’ that BA imposed during Covid - ‘negotiating’ with a gun held to BALPA’s head - means we are still paying for the privilege of having our industrial agreements upheld. Nobody knows for how long and how much, and despite endless and meaningless soothing messages from management, there’s no sign of it changing. Be sure to ask them about Delta at your interview.

I’ve worked for several airlines and some other big companies (much bigger than BA) before getting into aviation. The management culture here is truly toxic, and worse than anywhere I’ve ever experienced.

As an outsider, why is it so difficult to find your pay scales? On this side of the pond they’re all but publicly available.

The secrecy (if that’s the right word) makes it’s pretty difficult to make an informed decision when comparing companies.

[G SXTY]

Quite simply, the published pay scales are out of date. They are dated 1st Jan 2018, which pre-dates the 2019 strike and subsequent settlement, and BA has not bothered to update them since.

On top of that, all BA pilots are subject to a “Delta” pay deduction; in simple terms it is the company charging us for keeping senior (expensive) pilots rather than junior (cheaper) ones when Covid hit. They are making us pay to have a seniority system. As is the BA way, the formula used to calculate the “Delta” is so complicated that no-one understands it (and the union disputes BA’s numbers in any case) and there is no end date to the pay deductions.

Therefore:
Current pay scales are not published anywhere official, and we are left to guess what we should be earning,
Pay is subject to ongoing variable deductions.
No-one knows when the pay deductions will end.

[Check Airman]

Thanks for the insight. That's certainly a different way of doing things. As BALPA will have a say in negotiating any new pay scales, would they not be able to provide accurate pay data to the membership? Isn't the salary the absolute minimum you need to know before applying for a job?

[White Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Check Airman

As an outsider, why is it so difficult to find your pay scales? On this side of the pond they’re all but publicly available.

The secrecy (if that’s the right word) makes it’s pretty difficult to make an informed decision when comparing companies.

G-SXTY has hit the nail on the head, but with that I can shed at least some (unashamedly complicated!) light on the subject.

DEP starting salary £63,342. Increases more-or-less linearly on 34 year scale to £141,377 (LH) £120,027 (SH).
Captain salary is 1.33xFO salary.
PLUS flight pay approx £11/hr (block hours)
PLUS allowances £4.08/hr away from base (HMRC taxes the majority)
PLUS untaxable allowance £10/day per overseas night.

MINUS covid pay cut ("delta") of 4.1% currently, predicted to increase to 10% pay cut in 2023. This will then slowly decrease over literally decades.

Company and union are currently in discussions over pay. We are also owed a 4% raise negotiated pre-covid but accepted that to be delayed from 2020 till 2023.

Pension is defined contribution scheme, highest rate 6% employee, 15% employer, on the basic salary.

[Potatos_69]

Originally Posted by G SXTY

Just to reinforce the above posts…

As things stand, anyone joining right now is signing up to years of open-ended and variable pay cuts. Even if you can find our current pay scales (and good luck with that, because I can’t) they are meaningless: the ‘Delta’ that BA imposed during Covid - ‘negotiating’ with a gun held to BALPA’s head - means we are still paying for the privilege of having our industrial agreements upheld. Nobody knows for how long and how much, and despite endless and meaningless soothing messages from management, there’s no sign of it changing. Be sure to ask them about Delta at your interview.

I’ve worked for several airlines and some other big companies (much bigger than BA) before getting into aviation. The management culture here is truly toxic, and worse than anywhere I’ve ever experienced.

Come try the Pink and you will truly understand what a toxic management culture is.

Don't get me wrong BA certainly has its issues, I'm not trying to minimize yours. But it is still a damn sight better than some places still even with all its problems...

[IslandHoppa]

For those of you in this thread who were part way through the assessment stage. On the email that was sent last week did you just complete the form or both the form and re apply?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Alrosa

It’s worth bearing in mind that there will be individuals applying to the current BA campaign that would be over the moon to be offered BA SH, despite the current issues outlined above - and that is simply because BA SH is FAR from the worst option out there.

There are eligible applicants currently working for some truly atrocious European operators out there with terrible rosters, abusive management and less than professional operating behaviour being exhibited on the flightdeck. This is no exaggeration, and it is happening in Europe.

I’m not here to defend BA management or BALPA or whoever else - or wave the BA flag, and tell everyone how amazing BA is, or how much better BA is than Virgin, TUI or anyone else….all of that is very much dependent on your individual circumstances, and what you want out of a flying career - but there will be plenty of applicants for whom BA SH would represent a MASSIVE improvement.

If you can’t understand that, consider yourself very fortunate. I speak from experience. BA is not what it was, I agree with that - but there are some truly shocking operators out there…

If they were European operators then will said pilots have the right to live & work in the UK? Some doubtless will. But there is a big difference with this recruitment campaign over previous ones. This time you need the right to live & work in the UK, which most Europeans no longer have.

[Alrosa]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

If they were European operators then will said pilots have the right to live & work in the UK? Some doubtless will. But there is a big difference with this recruitment campaign over previous ones. This time you need the right to live & work in the UK, which most Europeans no longer have.

Good question, answer some but not many - as you’ve pointed out. There are some Brits working for cargo and ACMI overseas who may feel BA is definitely worth a punt, as it can’t be any worse than where they are…

I should have worded the previous post better - I was trying to put across the general point that BA is not what it once was and many have the right to feel aggrieved at what happened there over the last 2 years ; but for some people, BA is still a good opportunity.

Dependent on circumstances, preferences and priorities, it might even be a better opportunity than some of the other options available. For others it won’t be - fair enough.

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by White Van Driver

G-SXTY has hit the nail on the head, but with that I can shed at least some (unashamedly complicated!) light on the subject.

DEP starting salary £63,342. Increases more-or-less linearly on 34 year scale to £141,377 (LH) £120,027 (SH).
Captain salary is 1.33xFO salary.
PLUS flight pay approx £11/hr (block hours)
PLUS allowances £4.08/hr away from base (HMRC taxes the majority)
PLUS untaxable allowance £10/day per overseas night.

MINUS covid pay cut ("delta") of 4.1% currently, predicted to increase to 10% pay cut in 2023. This will then slowly decrease over literally decades.

Company and union are currently in discussions over pay. We are also owed a 4% raise negotiated pre-covid but accepted that to be delayed from 2020 till 2023.

Pension is defined contribution scheme, highest rate 6% employee, 15% employer, on the basic salary.

Thanks for those details. So a 34 year LH FO would make 141k plus flight pay?

[White Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Check Airman

Thanks for those details. So a 34 year LH FO would make 141k plus flight pay?

yes.
Though it would be exceedingly difficult to achieve that, as 34 years is a very long time to spend as an FO. And to progress past a certain point you need to bid for "all LHR command positions" - in the old 24pp contract that was pp18. No idea what it becomes under the 34pp contract.

[Tay Cough]

It’s worth pointing out that the pay discussions in question have seemingly just fallen apart.

It’s worth questioning why pretty much every other major airline is increasing pilot salaries while BA is still trying to reduce them.

[White Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Tay Cough

It’s worth pointing out that the pay discussions in question have seemingly just fallen apart.

I haven't seen this? Is that inside info?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Alrosa

Good question, answer some but not many - as you’ve pointed out. There are some Brits working for cargo and ACMI overseas who may feel BA is definitely worth a punt, as it can’t be any worse than where they are…

I should have worded the previous post better - I was trying to put across the general point that BA is not what it once was and many have the right to feel aggrieved at what happened there over the last 2 years ; but for some people, BA is still a good opportunity.

Dependent on circumstances, preferences and priorities, it might even be a better opportunity than some of the other options available. For others it won’t be - fair enough.

It’s true that for some people BA remains a good opportunity. I think the pool of people for which that is true is, and has been for some time, reducing. The principle reason for this (again in my view) is the inexplicable management culture at BA which sees senior management determined to constantly be at war with their own staff. This has resulted in a material reduction in terms & conditions & quality of life at BA with no sign of any improvement on the horizon. For whatever reason, the relationship is completely broken.

If you look at some of the places BA has historically recruited the majority of their experienced new first officers - easyjet, Ryanair, jet2 - it is far from clear to me that a move from any of these three places to BA makes any kind of sense anymore. Jet2 in particular stands in stark contrast to BA at the moment in terms of how they are treating their staff, and actually I’m aware of several people hoping to leave BA to go there in the near future.

If I was at one of the operators you describe, BA would not be my first choice at the moment, and choice - subject to your qualifications and hours - does exist.

[Seosan]

Originally Posted by Tay Cough

It’s worth questioning why pretty much every other major airline is increasing pilot salaries while BA is still trying to reduce them.

EZY are no better. Every single pay talk ends up in FTA level 2 before miraculously being resolved at two minutes to midnight. Our FOs get over 20k less than PP1 FO on a forced winter PT contract so variable pay is practically non-existent for 4-5 months. All this whilst still paying bonkers rent prices if you choose to live close to Gatwick in Brighton, Horsham etc. You can start to see the appeal on paper even if the reality is operationally worse.

No airline with shareholders is out to help the pilots, FAs or any other Tom, Dick or Harry combat inflation or improve their QOL. It’s all about the bottom line. Even J2 with their wonderful pay rises given by the hand of God himself still work in an airline who hate unionised workers and give out these perks in order to stem BALPA membership. Then again with BA BALPA you may be better off without them!

[Alrosa]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It’s true that for some people BA remains a good opportunity. I think the pool of people for which that is true is, and has been for some time, reducing. The principle reason for this (again in my view) is the inexplicable management culture at BA which sees senior management determined to constantly be at war with their own staff. This has resulted in a material reduction in terms & conditions & quality of life at BA with no sign of any improvement on the horizon. For whatever reason, the relationship is completely broken.

If you look at some of the places BA has historically recruited the majority of their experienced new first officers - easyjet, Ryanair, jet2 - it is far from clear to me that a move from any of these three places to BA makes any kind of sense anymore. Jet2 in particular stands in stark contrast to BA at the moment in terms of how they are treating their staff, and actually I’m aware of several people hoping to leave BA to go there in the near future.

If I was at one of the operators you describe, BA would not be my first choice at the moment, and choice - subject to your qualifications and hours - does exist.

Fair enough. Can I ask why BALPA hasn’t done more to look after its members’ interests at BA ? Or perhaps that might open a can of worms.

The picture I’m getting is of BA management doing whatever they want and BALPA saying ‘ok’ ….happy to be corrected!

[Pilot lad]

Originally Posted by IslandHoppa

For those of you in this thread who were part way through the assessment stage. On the email that was sent last week did you just complete the form or both the form and re apply?

You need to do the form and also apply for either positions advertised.