Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences
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biddedout
Well as in all those texts, one has to read very careful. The summary says there is a framework for professional qualification recognition (but not recognition in itself), which can be done in the future on a profession by profession basis. The only one implemented from the start was a very narrow recognition of legal services.
That said, the EU only regulates very few professions to begin with, most are nationally regulated in each EU and EFTA country and not subject to EU agreements. Some of those few are pilots and ATCOs. For most professions the UK has to negotiate with every single one of the EU and EFTA countries, basically nearly all UK earned degrees and qualifications are worthless in the EU, which, i am sure, will give a big boost to the UKs university sector.
Well as in all those texts, one has to read very careful. The summary says there is a framework for professional qualification recognition (but not recognition in itself), which can be done in the future on a profession by profession basis. The only one implemented from the start was a very narrow recognition of legal services.
That said, the EU only regulates very few professions to begin with, most are nationally regulated in each EU and EFTA country and not subject to EU agreements. Some of those few are pilots and ATCOs. For most professions the UK has to negotiate with every single one of the EU and EFTA countries, basically nearly all UK earned degrees and qualifications are worthless in the EU, which, i am sure, will give a big boost to the UKs university sector.
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I think what a lot of you are failing to realise is;
The UK CAA wound down when the UK became EASA. Then Brexit happened, for better or worse. And the EU took a hard stance and shafted the UK in every possible way in the divorce, out of spite I suppose, and probably to prevent EU/Leaver fever from catching on in many other countries who would love to leave the EU. Denmark, Holland?
The UK CAA was caught in the cross fire, and they've had to recover back to fully operational status. Not easy to do in the middle of a pandemic.
It's pretty bad timing, and very unfortunate for all our British licence holder friends. Just bad luck. But hopefully things get sorted eventually.
The UK CAA wound down when the UK became EASA. Then Brexit happened, for better or worse. And the EU took a hard stance and shafted the UK in every possible way in the divorce, out of spite I suppose, and probably to prevent EU/Leaver fever from catching on in many other countries who would love to leave the EU. Denmark, Holland?
The UK CAA was caught in the cross fire, and they've had to recover back to fully operational status. Not easy to do in the middle of a pandemic.
It's pretty bad timing, and very unfortunate for all our British licence holder friends. Just bad luck. But hopefully things get sorted eventually.
Well top marks to someone in the CAA today. Within a few hours of my post #20 above, six months worth of CAA Board Minutes have been uploaded onto the CAA site. Quickest response ever and good to see they monitor Prune so closely.
Unfortunately other than a few comments about departmental workload processing applications, there is no obvious acknowledgement from the board in any of the minutes that UK licence holders have been completely shafted.
Unfortunately other than a few comments about departmental workload processing applications, there is no obvious acknowledgement from the board in any of the minutes that UK licence holders have been completely shafted.
bidded,
I know that many of the CAA folk are not loved by Aviation, but quite a few of them read this site. Probably not the folk responsible for publishing minutes, tho'.
I know that many of the CAA folk are not loved by Aviation, but quite a few of them read this site. Probably not the folk responsible for publishing minutes, tho'.
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Really? That old thing again? No, the EU did not try to shaft the UK, that was the UK government all by itself. It is very simple: The EU is a rule based organization with its own fixed and written Treaty (constitution), something the UK is inherently unfamiliar with. According to that treaty once a country leaves, all treaties cease to apply for them at that date, except if anything else is negotiated. And the UK simply did not want to stay in EASA, although that option was of course there. Same as Erasmus+, the single market and so on. It was simply a purely political choice done by the UK, not the EU. In fact, the EU in many areas bends over backwards to accommodate those caught between the lines, like pilots for example with an extremely non-standard and very very easy way to get an EASA license which is not available to any other third country, and without any base in either the TCA nor any treaties, which might open those licenses up to legal review of their status.
Really? That old thing again? No, the EU did not try to shaft the UK, that was the UK government all by itself. It is very simple: The EU is a rule based organization with its own fixed and written Treaty (constitution), something the UK is inherently unfamiliar with. According to that treaty once a country leaves, all treaties cease to apply for them at that date, except if anything else is negotiated. And the UK simply did not want to stay in EASA, although that option was of course there. Same as Erasmus+, the single market and so on. It was simply a purely political choice done by the UK, not the EU. In fact, the EU in many areas bends over backwards to accommodate those caught between the lines, like pilots for example with an extremely non-standard and very very easy way to get an EASA license which is not available to any other third country, and without any base in either the TCA nor any treaties, which might open those licenses up to legal review of their status.
storm deserves a career in politics, not aviation.
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I certainly do not defend the problems the UK government caused by its decisions. Remember, the UK government decided to leave the EU and also decided how it wanted to leave it. Causing all this mayhem. If one is to blame: it is the Johnson administration and his unelected lackey Lord Snowflake.
Perhaps a gentle nudge in the direction pilots may wish to vote in the next general election should they want a reasonable solution to this predicament to be made.
It’s quite clear that this mess has been orchestrated by those in Government who wanted to completely remove the U.K. from any ECJ jurisdiction, and that has therefore precluded our membership of EASA.
Its all well and good making off the cuff remarks about the EU on a thread which has been negated as a direct result of politics, but the facts must be pointed out clearly as to not allow the continued sloping shoulders approach to the decisions made by those in our elected parliament, and the finger being pointed solely at the EU, which is wholly inaccurate.
It’s quite clear that this mess has been orchestrated by those in Government who wanted to completely remove the U.K. from any ECJ jurisdiction, and that has therefore precluded our membership of EASA.
Its all well and good making off the cuff remarks about the EU on a thread which has been negated as a direct result of politics, but the facts must be pointed out clearly as to not allow the continued sloping shoulders approach to the decisions made by those in our elected parliament, and the finger being pointed solely at the EU, which is wholly inaccurate.
Who is taking aim at U.K. Licenced pilots? I know a fair few who voted leave but who say they didn’t vote to leave EASA. I still wouldn’t take aim at them, despite the irony. I do think the point is lost on you somewhat. Unless you’re advocating a Globally recognised licence, in which case I would tend to agree, but that then also comes down to politics.
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Sorry!!…. guidance required regards the dreaded EASA/UK licence drama please…
I currently hold a valid rating issued by GCAA, operating for a major player in the middle east (which adheres to EASA rules). I also hold a ‘UK issued EASA licence’ which was issued in 2013 (IR expired).
UK CAA have confirmed that my UK issued EASA licence will revert back to a UK licence automatically. They also confirmed that I can transfer my current rating onto my UK licence, which will reset the 7 year IR cycle with no requirement to resit any theoretical examinations with the CAA. This can only be done as my operator conforms to ICAO third country regulations.
My main question is…….Has anyone done something similar with regards to the EASA licence? Are there any EU states that will still allow me to retain my EASA licence privileges, either via SOLI, rating transfer or conversion from UK/CAA licence to EASA state etc, without any need to retake any theoretical examinations?
Is anyone in a similar situation or can share any ideas/solutions?
Thanks
I currently hold a valid rating issued by GCAA, operating for a major player in the middle east (which adheres to EASA rules). I also hold a ‘UK issued EASA licence’ which was issued in 2013 (IR expired).
UK CAA have confirmed that my UK issued EASA licence will revert back to a UK licence automatically. They also confirmed that I can transfer my current rating onto my UK licence, which will reset the 7 year IR cycle with no requirement to resit any theoretical examinations with the CAA. This can only be done as my operator conforms to ICAO third country regulations.
My main question is…….Has anyone done something similar with regards to the EASA licence? Are there any EU states that will still allow me to retain my EASA licence privileges, either via SOLI, rating transfer or conversion from UK/CAA licence to EASA state etc, without any need to retake any theoretical examinations?
Is anyone in a similar situation or can share any ideas/solutions?
Thanks
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Denti
"Remember, the UK government decided ...." I'm not keen on being lectured, and this statement is incorrect. The electorate of the UK , (which is us), decided to leave the EU. The EU, to a great extent, was responsible for the terms under which we left.
You may not agree with the outcome of the referendum, but we live in a democratic country. I could be suggested that your energies might be more usefully spent by suggesting a solution, rather than apportioning blame ?
"Remember, the UK government decided ...." I'm not keen on being lectured, and this statement is incorrect. The electorate of the UK , (which is us), decided to leave the EU. The EU, to a great extent, was responsible for the terms under which we left.
You may not agree with the outcome of the referendum, but we live in a democratic country. I could be suggested that your energies might be more usefully spent by suggesting a solution, rather than apportioning blame ?
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Actually, the electorate voted a tory government into power several times. That is all they did. The referendum was an advisory referendum only, it was the governments decision, backed by parliament, to leave the EU. Or did you see 17 million signatures on the letter invoking article 50? Governments can disregard advisory referendum outcomes if they think those are stupid, trust me, i have seen that several times now over here.
The EU had certain red lines of course, same as the UK, but always left the choice on what to do to the UK government. It was the UK governments decision not to stay in EURATOM (an entity independent, but closely aligned with the EU), same as it was its decision to leave EASA. And that has led to the current mess with licenses. And yet again, EASA makes it as easy as possible to get an EASA license for UK license holders, without much base in treaties and hard law, trying to help as much as possible. No help at all of course is forthcoming from the UK government, not that anybody would expect that in the first place.
The EU had certain red lines of course, same as the UK, but always left the choice on what to do to the UK government. It was the UK governments decision not to stay in EURATOM (an entity independent, but closely aligned with the EU), same as it was its decision to leave EASA. And that has led to the current mess with licenses. And yet again, EASA makes it as easy as possible to get an EASA license for UK license holders, without much base in treaties and hard law, trying to help as much as possible. No help at all of course is forthcoming from the UK government, not that anybody would expect that in the first place.
Seems you need to be lectured. The electorate might have decided to leave the EU but the EU is not EASA. There was no box to be ticked for EASA nor would most voters even know who or what EASA is. To leave EASA was the decision of the UK government.
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Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Norway and Iceland seem to be doing just fine outside of EU, but still with EASA licences (among other things).
So it would seem EASA membership while being outside of EU is clearly possible.
So it would seem EASA membership while being outside of EU is clearly possible.
Would it not be easier to just accept the fact that those who held easa licences pre brexit should still be entitled to hold easa licences again regardless of the U.K. or brexit? I mean all of the training and standards were the same before 1st jan and to a large extent remain the same so on a practical level it makes no difference whatsoever. The only difference is politics. Its time we had a globally recognised licence and cohesion because all of this conversion nonsense is just ridiculous. The last time I checked an ILS was An ILS and an airbus was an airbus whatever it’s reg or wherever it was being operated!? And I thought the objective of our industry was to connect the world after all!?
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Of course it's political, it always was. You could argue the same for passports - why are British people, who held an EU passport not too long ago, suddenly disadvantaged when it comes to right to leave or work?
Since you mention that an Airbus is an Airbus and an ILS is an ILS... Would you be happy if Romanian or Bulgarian operator started flying domestic UK routes tomorrow? Surely an operator with EASA AOC is just as qualified to fly UK domestic routes as UK airlines are?
Since you mention that an Airbus is an Airbus and an ILS is an ILS... Would you be happy if Romanian or Bulgarian operator started flying domestic UK routes tomorrow? Surely an operator with EASA AOC is just as qualified to fly UK domestic routes as UK airlines are?
I couldn’t care less which operator was flying domestic U.K. routes to be honest. Just as Europeans don’t mind an Irish airline flying domestically across the whole continent…