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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

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IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 30th Apr 2020, 15:40
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: hector's house
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Originally Posted by Fly747 View Post
I have a family to support, kids in uni, elderly parents and only a few years left to work before that is it for 20+ years of retirement. Many of you meanwhile have years of employment ahead of you and if the airlines don't bounce back you can do something else.
I still enjoy my job. I'm living this life for me and mine, not for you and yours. I owe you nothing. Good luck to all; I ain't going nowheres voluntarily. Nothing sad in it at all.
Originally Posted by Dobby the house elf View Post

I used to be proud of the community of pilots that I could call myself part of, now some of them embarrass me with their forum posts. I'm embarrassed for myself because I might have called some of those greedy, selfish pilots my friends. I hope I never knew Fly747.

Good luck to all of you out there, whoever you fly for. Most guys at the top had an expectation of a career at BA until 55. Every extra year a bonus. I hope that at least some do the right thing.
What is greedy and selfish about putting your kids through Uni and caring for elderly parents?
Very few pilots can afford to retire comfortably at 55
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 15:42
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Originally Posted by Dobby the house elf View Post
I too am retired, at 55, reasonably comfortable and have no personal interest. I am 100% in agreement with RoyHudd.

I used to be proud to be part of BA, now I am embarrassed by their attack on the pilots. Sad that my BA could have changed so much.

I used to be proud of the community of pilots that I could call myself part of, now some of them embarrass me with their forum posts. I'm embarrassed for myself because I might have called some of those greedy, selfish pilots my friends. I hope I never knew Fly747.

Good luck to all of you out there, whoever you fly for. Most guys at the top had an expectation of a career at BA until 55. Every extra year a bonus. I hope that at least some do the right thing.
Bringing a ten year old plus (or more like 16 year old?) situation into this discussion is irrelevant. (I suspect that Fly747 hopes that he never flew with you.) Pensions are very, very different now.
Have people seen this

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...JNFG8lAroPI0Kc

Might not do much good but we can only try
Done. And I will be encouraging others.


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Old 30th Apr 2020, 16:00
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns View Post
Airbubba I don't work for BA but yes that scenario is realistic, begs the question in the future will a larger proportion of senior FO's continue to pass on opportunities for Command due to this risk? You could have a scenario where someone takes a command, never gets the payrise due to Furlough, and is now looking down the barrel of redundancy. Ask me how I know....
Not only that but who’s going to want to take the chance of being junior in either seat? It impacts fleet moves too. Lots of consequences here (unintended or otherwise).
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 16:10
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Currently you need to be more senior to get an internal RHS move to the 777 than you do to take a reasonably middle of seniority LHS on the 'bus out of Heathrow!
Progressive degradation of lifestyle on SH has led to many pilots taking lifestyle decisions and going part time whilst remaining RHS on a LH fleet.

So, yes, there are an awful lot of Captains who are much more junior than SFO's.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 16:19
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Just read Balpa’s reply to AB’s letter. Pretty much sums it up I think. It will be interesting to hear the companies’ responses to the various points raised. Personally, I don’t acknowledge that pleading poverty while sitting on a 7-9 Billion Euro cash pile is morally or legally justifiable.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 16:28
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hunterboy View Post
Just read Balpa’s reply to AB’s letter. Pretty much sums it up I think. It will be interesting to hear the companies’ responses to the various points raised. Personally, I don’t acknowledge that pleading poverty while sitting on a 7-9 Billion Euro cash pile is morally or legally justifiable.
Anyone able to share the letter?
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 16:34
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
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Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns View Post
Airbubba I don't work for BA but yes that scenario is realistic, begs the question in the future will a larger proportion of senior FO's continue to pass on opportunities for Command due to this risk? You could have a scenario where someone takes a command, never gets the payrise due to Furlough, and is now looking down the barrel of redundancy. Ask me how I know....
Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
VR is not being offered: why are we even discussing it?
Wow, it does look like the company does want to make folks redundant out of seniority order based on 'factors' such as 'operational needs, the anticipated flying programme, skills (including type rating), and, if required, an assessment process'.



Wonder what they mean by an 'assessment process'. A 'you bet your licence' sim check?
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 16:41
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Originally Posted by hunterboy View Post
Just read Balpa’s reply to AB’s letter. Pretty much sums it up I think. It will be interesting to hear the companies’ responses to the various points raised. Personally, I don’t acknowledge that pleading poverty while sitting on a 7-9 Billion Euro cash pile is morally or legally justifiable.
Originally Posted by TheAirMission View Post
Anyone able to share the letter?
Don't have the BALPA letter yet but here's today's 'fighting for every pilot job' media release:

BALPA 'fighting for every pilot job at BA'

Release date: 30/04/2020

Responding to the latest news on British Airways, BALPA General Secretary, Brian Strutton said:

“BALPA is fighting to save every pilot job at BA. The company has declined Government support claiming it is financially secure enough to survive the coronavirus crisis, so it is hard to see how these cuts can be justified.

“There are many options to ensure BA can continue its business and survive coronavirus and BALPA does not accept that job losses are the only answer. Pilots want evidence that all options have been explored fully.”

Commenting on reports that BA is pulling out of Gatwick Airport, BALPA General Secretary, Brian Strutton continued:

“As far as BALPA is aware there is no truth in the rumour that British Airways will pull out of Gatwick and there has been no indication of that from BA to us. However, it is on our list of questions to ask them.”
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 16:43
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
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I know this is an unpalatable thing to discuss, but we have to consider the environmental aspect of this. Of course it's terrible for everyone who will lose a job, and that may bring much hardship, but the continual talk of the aviation industry 'bouncing back' and perhaps getting sizeable government support is to decry totally the awful environmental mess we were already in, and continue to be in. Aviation as it was 6 weeks ago is absolutely not sustainable environmentally, anymore than it now is economically. We need to face up to this.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 16:57
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Another April 28 BA letter reported in the media.

Letter to colleagues from Alex Cruz, Chairman and CEO at British Airways

Yesterday, British Airways flew just a handful of aircraft out of Heathrow. On a normal day we would fly more than 300. What we are facing as an airline, like so many other businesses up and down the country, is that there is no ‘normal’ any longer.

The global aviation body, IATA, has said that the industry has never seen a downturn this deep before, and that full year industry passenger revenues could plummet 55% compared to 2019, while traffic falls 48%. Many airlines have grounded all of their planes. Sadly, we will see some airlines go out of business with the resulting job losses.

Our very limited flying schedule means that revenues are not coming into our business. We are taking every possible action to conserve cash, which will help us to weather the storm in the short-term. We are working closely with partners and suppliers to discuss repayment terms; we are re-negotiating contracts where possible; and we are considering all the options for our current and future aircraft fleet. All of these actions alone are not enough.

In the last few weeks, the outlook for the aviation industry has worsened further and we must take action now. We are a strong, well-managed business that has faced into, and overcome, many crises in our hundred-year history. We must overcome this crisis ourselves, too.

There is no Government bailout standing by for BA and we cannot expect the taxpayer to offset salaries indefinitely. Any money we borrow now will only be short-term and will not address the longer-term challenges we will face.

We do not know when countries will reopen their borders or when the lockdowns will lift, and so we have to reimagine and reshape our airline and create a new future for our people, our customers and the destinations we serve. We have informed the Government and the Trade Unions of our proposals to consult over a number of changes, including possible reductions in headcount. We will begin a period of consultation, during which we will work with the Trade Unions to protect as many jobs as possible. Your views matter and we will listen to all practical proposals.

The scale of this challenge requires substantial change so we are in a competitive and resilient position, not just to address the immediate Covid-19 pandemic, but also to withstand any longer-term reductions in customer demand, economic shocks or other events that could affect us. However challenging this is, the longer we delay difficult decisions, the fewer options will be open to us.

I want to pay tribute to the thousands of British Airways colleagues who are playing a vital role in the global response to the Covid-19 crisis. Whether you are supporting our repatriation flights or the transport of essential cargo; or one of the hundreds of colleagues volunteering with organisations such as the NHS, you have my sincere respect and thanks.

This has been a difficult message to write and one I never thought I would need to send. I know how tight-knit the BA family is, and how concerned you will be, not just for yourself but for your colleagues, too. We must act decisively now to ensure that British Airways has a strong future and continues connecting Britain with the world, and the world with Britain.

Thank you.

Alex
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 17:11
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Wonder what they mean by an 'assessment process'. A 'you bet your licence' sim check?
I think the proposed assessment process will only be when they have identified the fleets and seats in “surplus”. At a rough guess that process will be when be a selection matrix will come into play - which may or may not include LIFO or weighted LIFO - that hasn’t exactly been spelled out at this point. As you say, they can hardly make you go into the Sim to see if you can perform well enough to keep your job.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 17:11
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
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Originally Posted by Donkeygone View Post
I know this is an unpalatable thing to discuss, but we have to consider the environmental aspect of this. Of course it's terrible for everyone who will lose a job, and that may bring much hardship, but the continual talk of the aviation industry 'bouncing back' and perhaps getting sizeable government support is to decry totally the awful environmental mess we were already in, and continue to be in. Aviation as it was 6 weeks ago is absolutely not sustainable environmentally, anymore than it now is economically. We need to face up to this.
I'll bite because I have nothing better to be doing during quarantine. It's widely accepted in the industry that we must do everything we can to reduce our environmental impact. It's even more widely reported in the media, and shouted loudly from the rooftops by every social media user, how bad aviation is for the environment. The issue is, it gets a disproportionate amount of coverage and hate, for the actualimpact it has on the environment.

Of global CO2 emissions, aviation counts for just 2%.

Road transport is many many times worse (and increasing at a higher rate than aviation), shipping is about as much, too. Transportation accounts for roughly 15% of global CO2, and Aviation is one of the smallest parts of the transportation group - as I say road transport being considerably worse.

Why am I saying all of this?

Yes, I accept aircraft pollute. But I don't accept the hysteria associated with flying, because it's popular to flight shame, if people also don't get hysterical about all the other contributors. The simple fact is the large majority of transportation pollutions (road) can be eliminated by using electric power from a green source. The same can be done for most of the other contributing sectors (energy). It cannot be done for aircraft and likely wont in our lifetimes.

How about we stop the hysteria surrounding Aviation and actually do our own research before posting all over social media how bad flying is.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 17:13
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
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we would propose to use statutory terms for redundancy pay
I kept my head down through at least two waves of redundancies in the 90s, and finally went after 9/11 with a pretty generous package that included an enhanced 4 weeks per year, uncapped, plus all the statutory and contractual stuff. I had 15 years.

To be clear, the current 'statutory' is 1.5 weeks per full year (over age 40), capped @ £538 per week, and capped at 12 years.

I am now working elsewhere am about to leave on statutory plus enhancement of just 1 extra week for every 3 years.

Times they are a-changing indeed.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 18:17
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
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Thank you for engaging with the issue (unlike clvf88 who just went for the unflattering ad hominem). You're right of course that aviation is one of many polluting industries. Two of your points stick out to me:
1) one single industry (aviation) counts for 2% of emissions. That's astonishing for a single industry
2) whereas other modes of transport can probably reduce emissions, it's not realistic that aviation will in any reasonable time

If the climate were in a moderately worrying position I think we could accept aviation's contribution and tackle the rest. However, the broad scientific consensus now seems to be that we just cannot be picky about the industries who do and don't contribute.

So I stand by my point: sadly, very sadly, aviation cannot return to business as usual. And that is very apposite to this discussion.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 18:40
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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Originally Posted by Donkeygone View Post
Thank you for engaging with the issue (unlike clvf88 who just went for the unflattering ad hominem). You're right of course that aviation is one of many polluting industries. Two of your points stick out to me:

1) one single industry (aviation) counts for 2% of emissions. That's astonishing for a single industry

2) whereas other modes of transport can probably reduce emissions, it's not realistic that aviation will in any reasonable time


If the climate were in a moderately worrying position I think we could accept aviation's contribution and tackle the rest. However, the broad scientific consensus now seems to be that we just cannot be picky about the industries who do and don't contribute.


So I stand by my point: sadly, very sadly, aviation cannot return to business as usual. And that is very apposite to this discussion.

I also concur with the view that you are deliberately trying to be provocative on a thread being avidly followed by desperately worried BA pilots. Pilots who if they lose their current jobs will lose their careers not to mention the financial loss of their massive self funded training costs.


But I too will bite....

2% is astonishing considering the huge amount of vitriol it attracts from the likes of you. Go away and focus on something that will make a real difference.

If aviation were eliminated in one go, the planet will not notice. Indeed Indian industry would replace it within a month. The point being made though, as you well know, is that there are practical alternatives to other forms of more polluting transportation. There is not for aviation, yet.


Now, please, go away. This is a pilots forum, not for self styled climate activists.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 18:44
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Donkeygone View Post
Thank you for engaging with the issue (unlike clvf88 who just went for the unflattering ad hominem). You're right of course that aviation is one of many polluting industries.
1) one single industry (aviation) counts for 2% of emissions. That's astonishing for a single industry
2) whereas other modes of transport can probably reduce emissions, it's not realistic that aviation will in any reasonable time

If the climate were in a moderately worrying position I think we could accept aviation's contribution and tackle the rest. However, the broad scientific consensus now seems to be that we just cannot be picky about the industries who do and don't contribute.
Notwithstanding your incredible (disgusting?) lack of empathy for a whole host of real life people here about to lose their jobs and not have a replacement to go to, one assumes you only get a sailboat when you go back to Guernsey? I thought not.

Good luck to all of you at BA; hopefully CR can be avoided where possible.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 19:26
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
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Sorry to raise hackles folk. I realise this isn’t the place or audience for this. I’ll shall retire gracefully to the spotters balcony. I genuinely wish the best to everyone who will be affected by this
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 20:51
  #138 (permalink)  

Uncle Pete
 
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Originally Posted by RoyHudd View Post
Belated apology to Maximum Pete. You were indeed too subtle for me and my dim brain.

From chatting to a pal today, it seems that certain pension-rich 60+-year olds are happily operating long haul flights for BA with no view to retiring now and helping out others. Very sad. Selfish people. There were some at bmi too, evidently not yourself.
Many thanks for the apology, much appreciated but not necessary. Times are hard, feelings run high and then these parasites want more and more in this dreadful situation.
Stay safe everyone and good luck to you all.
MP
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 21:01
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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This is doing the rounds, make of it what you will but I think it pretty much hits the nail on the head.

This arrived from a friend this evening, it’s brilliant and she wants it to go viral, it pretty much says it all. Worth getting out there, send it to your other halves, friends, family, everyone. Perhaps the press will pick it up:

“My husband is a senior British Airways captain with over 30 loyal, devoted years of service with the airline. Middle class, solidly Home Counties, and precisely the person whose gentle tones you long to hear upon boarding a British Airways aircraft at the end of an arduous business trip in some moth-eaten corner of the world.

As soon as his mellow, Radio 2 voice, and his “Good evening and ladies and gentlemen “ welcome aboard announcement comes across the PA system, you feel safe and warm, cocooned in the knowledge that for the next however many hours, you are secure in the hands of a consummate professional and his crew.

Your subconscious immediately tries to picture him: a man in his late forties or early fifties, who, at the end of the flight, will no doubt fire up his trusty Volvo estate and drive home to his wife, 2.4 children, and ageing labrador or golden retriever. You might even meet him for a pint in the village local that evening.

You recline into your premium cabin seat, order a G&T, and in your head at least, you’re already back in Blighty as the careworn palm trees whip past your window and the plane rolls along the runway on its takeoff path. That’s my old man, the quintessential BA skipper.

Slice him in half, and you’ll discover the BA logo running through him like a stick of Brighton rock.
I cannot begin to list how many times he has gone above and beyond for his colleagues, passengers and employer.

Always the first to board, and the last to disembark, regardless of how exhausted he might be.

A passenger in need of assistance? He’s there like a shot.

A late wheelchair on arrival back at base? He’ll send everyone home and stay with the passenger until one eventually turns up, which these days can sometimes be an hour or more, not the ideal conclusion to a long night flight.

Crew member taken ill down route? He’ll accompany them to hospital and keep in regular contact until he’s satisfied that they’re ok and all relevant parties have been notified.

Duty. Honour. Responsibility. Decency. Solid British Airways characteristics, or at least they used to be.

BA is his life, and in spite of me telling him for years that his spaniel-like fidelity would always go unrecognised (how right I was), he has stubbornly put his unswerving duty to “The Company” ahead of any other commitments to family or friends.

Now we fear the worst, and fully expect that Messrs Walsh and Cruz will stab him in the back in grateful recognition of his many years of blind loyalty.

COVID-19 is manna from heaven for IAG and the BA board: an opportunity for the company to divest itself of those employees who still enjoy the relative luxury of a half-decent contract and working conditions.

Make no mistake. Henceforth, ALL British Airways employees will be working on minimum salary contracts, with little job security and the cheapest and worst working conditions legally allowable.

“Don’t like it, Captain X? Shove off and we’ll have you replaced within a month...”

Fills one with pride to Fly the Flag, does it not?

BA has the cash reserves to come to a better and infinitely more humane solution than to sack 12,000 employees who would, I am in no doubt, be prepared to work for a reduced salary, thereby reducing costs and meeting the shortfall by sharing out the workload.

The snag with that plan, however, is that IAG, WIllie Walsh and Alex Cruz would lose this never-to-be-repeated-once-in-a-lifetime opportunity which offers them the chance to get rid of their more expensive employees under the cover of crisis.

It’s a gift horse not to be ignored.

Equally, for BA to accept a very cheap government loan would open the door for Virgin, it’s most bitter of rivals, to do the same, thereby giving it the opportunity to find possible salvation.

Walsh and Cruz have therefore concluded that, rather than give their UK opponents any chance of survival, it is preferable to throw their most loyal people to the wolves, and then replace them in a few years with far cheaper labour.

Two birds with one stone. Job done. Management bonuses and Veuve Clique all round.

And there, in a nutshell, is the brutal reality of the “we’ll come out of this a better society”, post-COVID world.

Gone are the gentlemanly days of Lords King and Marshall, who took it upon themselves to actually give a damn about their employees, and who, in return, were admired and respected by the workforce.

Today it is the Wolves of Harmondsworth in charge; they have scented blood and are going in for the kill.

Far from emerging from COVID into a kinder, more understanding place, we will discover that the vultures and hyenas who run our biggest companies will use today’s climate to slice, dice, and butcher their best people in the manner of the most brutal Wuhan wet market.

If you thought things became cutthroat after 2008-9, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Bottom dollar business, to hell with humanity, and let’s screw whoever we can, (as we have for many years), only now, we have the perfect excuse.

Morals? Decency? Respect?

Only if there’s a profit to be made.

I leave it to you to decide whether that is a reality which you wish to inhabit.

Or a flag you wish to fly.

We’ll take more care of you? Judge for yourself.”
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 21:51
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
Posts: 100
No wonder that Captain spent 30 years devoting his life to BA, the alternative would be staying at home with that wordsmith.. joking! Don't send the fun police after me... are IAG being cut-throat and extremely cruel? Yes. Is anyone outside of BA surprised? You certainly shouldn't be. My best wishes to all at BA and particularly to BALPA, they have a hell of a fight on their hands but now is not the time to waver, they are not just fighting for the pilots now, but for their own survival. If BA get away with this after the whimpering end to the strikes last year, Balpa will be dead and buried, and that is not good for any of us.
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