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Old 4th Jun 2021, 11:21
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Pretty ballsy plan. Not sure our government has the brains for something that clever.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 14:28
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Whitemonk Returns

I disagree, I've heard this argument before. There is a glut of type rated pilots. It doesn't take long to get a pilot back on line if they are fairly current right now, after all airlines don't recruit until the winter ready for summer.

That said I presume TUI will be in this situation, they kept everyone on. One has to wonder if the DFO had an ulterior motive as his ex colleagues are in the firing line if they start laying people off at this late stage.

It looks like Jet2 made the right decision to delay a return to flying and again after yesterday's new have delayed yet again. Empty aircraft are no good to anyone. I'm just hoping their plan will keep the airline healthy once things pick up.

It's a nightmare.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 14:43
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MrKipling

Not sure how you think Jet2 have made the right decision in this. At least Tui are operating some flights and generating some financials in charter, cargo and pax. Can’t be cheap grounding all your aircraft for an extra 9 weeks with no income and massive mortgages to pay for.
I see the Jet2 coolaid is still very much a thing. You’ve got to wonder how much longer they can hold onto books. Not that I want them to reduce in size or make redundancies.

This whole thing about how great Jet2 is vs other operators is starting to be like a cult. They’re not amazing. No company is, especially at the moment.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 15:38
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I agree Whitemonk, not really time to make normal redundancies. Sadly it’s now highly probable that we might lose jobs to companies going bankrupt rather than job cuts.

Some have cashflow coming in from European arms/ flying (EZY Europe/Swiss, IAG, RYR). But others? Really hope all airlines can make it to next summer.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 17:04
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Whitemonk Returns

Perhaps the Spanish pilots slipped your mind 'cos your financial situation isn't a disaster but to say that the fault lies with the lack of generosity of the Spanish furlough scheme can only be described as a possible attempt to insult my intelligence. The UK furlough scheme is paid to the employer up to a maximum of 2,500 per month and JET2 are paying their UK pilots 70% of their salaries. For the sake of simplicity assuming a monthly salary of 10,000 per month, JET2 gets 2,500 and pays out of the JET2 bank account 70% of the salary or 7,000, of which JET2 have been paid 2,500 by the UK government. This means that JET2 are out of pocket by 4,500 (7,000 salary at 70% less 2,500 UK furlough scheme). Evidently and according to the foregoing figures JET2 is only meeting 45% of the hypothetical 10,000 monthly wage, due to the reduction of salaries by 30% and the contribution of 2,500 from the UK furlough scheme.

If there wasn't any specific discrimination intended of the JET2 Spanish based pilots, then a similar offer of meeting 45% of their original salaries the same as the UK pilots would seem to have been fair and would have been gladly accepted. As things stand one of the important financial supports of JET2 are the Spanish based pilots and their sacrifice won't even be appreciated, when this is all over.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 17:30
  #66 (permalink)  
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I don't disagree with you. It's shameful and I can assure you there are plenty of UK based Jet2 pilots who are also struggling. The fact is that the Spanish pilot contracts were part time, most hadnt been in the company very long (I say most I know there are plenty who have) and it is easier for the company to treat them differently and not destroy the relationship with the UK pilot group. I'm not saying I agree with it but that's the situation at hand.

As for the Jet2 'coolaid' comment, I have flown for many airlines and at every one of them there have been a large percentage of the workforce who think the company is the best thing since sliced bread, despite all evidence to the contrary. The reality is always somewhere in the middle to differing degrees. Keep the updates coming, I will post the PMs as they come in as always. May the next few months be kind to us all.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 20:33
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No business is perfect I agree, and I'm not saying Jet2 is dealing with things better than anyone else, time will tell. I think comparing Jet2 to TUI is an interesting exercise as they are direct competitors in many ways.

Times are hard for all pilots so this is an emotive subject. Redundancy payments only need to be paid if an employee has more than 2 years service. Last year both airlines had employees that didn't have 2 years service. TUI kept their pilots employed on more than just furlough pay even though many were not rated. They have been taking on new aircraft and running command courses. Jet2 have done almost the opposite.

Flying empty aircraft around costs more money than parking them up. Freight is a good use of the airframes though.

One of the companies is billions in debt the other not so much. One company seems to have been over optimistic the other more pessimistic perhaps.

So which managers got it right?

Let's see how it pans out. Best of luck to all.
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 05:31
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Perhaps this can be explained by the fact that one of the companies is a global business with many assets and a FY2019 revenue of 18.9-billion Euros, the other not so much.

But all of that pails into insignificance when we have such an inept government intent on destroying our industry. Good luck to all - no matter the company, I think we all need it now.

Last edited by AirUK; 5th Jun 2021 at 05:57.
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 13:30
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Global business or not, debt is debt, turnover means nothing either it's profits at the end of the day. All those shiny new aircraft and cruise ships need paying for.

Obviously parking aircraft up and hibernating costs money, but less than flying aircraft that aren't full.

It's all a show no matter what your point of view.
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 13:59
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Originally Posted by MrKipling View Post
debt is debt.
But not all debt is equal. Being in debt to the government is very different to being in debt to the banks, especially to the German government who aren't hell bent on destroying the aviation industry.

Originally Posted by MrKipling View Post
One of the companies is billions in debt the other not so much. One company seems to have been over optimistic the other more pessimistic perhaps..
One is completely exposed to the decisions of the UK government, the other (and every other UK airline for that matter) is not. TUI, easyJet, Ryanair, Wizzair and IAG will all let their European operations drag the UK part through to the day when common sense finally prevails here. Virgin (and IAG) have built up a solid cargo operation which is seeing them through. Jet2 don't have any of that.

TUI and Jet2 may be direct competitors here, but they are fundamentally different companies as a whole. There's no point comparing their respective decisions to restart or not. It was easier for TUI to restart as they have resort staff, hotels and infrastructure in place to cater for the European factions that have had much fewer restrictions placed on them by their respective governments. TUI DE, NL and BE are more or less back up to a full schedule, with only a few destinations currently off limits.

I do believe the outlook is a lot rosier now though, for reasons highlighted by people above. The world is reopening, and unlike last year, jobs are starting to pop up. Any redundancies are unlikely at this stage due to the requirements for Summer 22, and any redundancies that are made won't necessarily spell the end of one's career.
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 17:22
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Good points we'll made. I still wonder how the decisions will affect the pilot workforce going forward. The debt has to be paid and the quicker the balance sheet is in the green the quicker the pilots can return to the new normal. Whatever that ends up being.

You can bet the amount of debt will be used to drive cuts in terms and conditions. If the companies need the pilots then they should have to pay for them not the workforce.
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Old 6th Jun 2021, 17:45
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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You appear to have got it wrong yet again. Only the PMI based pilots are part time. The ALC based pilots are full time. It is also not true that many have not been in employment with JET2 very long, as some are very experienced and similar to any base in the UK. JET2 paying their pilots in Spain 2,000 euros a month is discriminatory and taking full advantage of the present COVID-19 situation, where there is no other employment elsewhere . Saying it is simpler for JET2 to prejudice the overseas based pilots to avoid destroying the relationship with the UK pilot group speaks volumes and certainly not particularly favourable of the management at JET2.
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Old 6th Jun 2021, 20:19
  #73 (permalink)  
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I have tried to be diplomatic with you so far but considering you keep going I'll tell you the truth because you seem to have not figured it out yet. Nobody gives a damn about the Spanish based pilots and they never will. Nobody. Pre Covid they had a cushy number and never hesitated to brag about it, now they are getting screwed over. Life is not fair. JET2 management don't care, BALPA don't care and despite recognising the wrongness of what has happened, by and large the UK pilot group don't care either. I am sorry that any pilot from any company is struggling right now, JET2 Spanish pilots are doing far better than the many unemployed guys out there right now.
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Old 7th Jun 2021, 09:21
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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As a member of the Jet2 U.K. pilot group could I please disassociate myself, and probably the majority of Jet2’s pilots from Whitemonk’s Comments.
Rather than not caring, I wasn’t aware of the difference in pay during the pandemic. I was aware that the Spanish government contribution was lower, but had, wrongly, assumed that the Company would have at least paid the same in top up payments to the Spanish based pilots. It is also totally wrong of Whitemonk to say that BALPA don’t care, BALPA cannot represent the Spanish pilots, or at least that is my understanding, as they are a U.K. union.

To put things in perspective, Jet2 have been surprisingly generous to the workforce who they have kept on during the pandemic, more so than many would have expected. However, apart from a bi-weekly email bulletin reminding us to let the APU cool down before turning off the battery, communication from Management have been lacking; unless you know anyone in the Spanish bases there is no way to know what is happening, but the fact that a large number of those transferring to the Bristol base are apparently coming from ALC presumably says something about the situation (and Brexit, possibly).
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Old 7th Jun 2021, 10:19
  #75 (permalink)  
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Over a year into this and you weren't aware of the discrepancy, proves my point exactly.
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Old 7th Jun 2021, 11:34
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No, it just proves that I don’t know anyone based there, as it certainly wasn’t publicised by management.
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Old 7th Jun 2021, 16:20
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It was my understanding this thread was for comparison to keep everyone abreast of the wider playing field. It seems to have turned into a bit of a sniping shop. And more recently a blue-on-blue (or should that be red on red) bicker fest.

Maybe best for all concerned the Jet2 fraternity may create a specific airline thread to help overcome, from what an outsider view would suggest, is possibly poor company comms (apologies if I’ve read it wrongly but that is certainly how it’s coming across to an outsider) and help keep this thread clean and as happy as is possible during these uncertain times

Many across all airlines are clearly concerned for their jobs and also many are actually out of jobs including some who have been made redundant in the last year and threads like these will attract those perhaps needing a bit of upbeat good news about the great job on various levels the different airlines are doing in very difficult circumstances to support employees, and this with the confusing governmental handling of the sector through the pandemic. As if it wasn’t challenging enough.

The airlines are hanging in there and in addition there may be new start ups too. So put the bickering and one-upmanship aside and try play your part in keeping everyone’s head up during this very difficult period for all.

Time to hang onto each other not look to batter someone from a different airline. Or your own. Even.

Green shoots of recovery and good examples of company support which are clearly widespread, are definitely worth sharing. But maybe best to keep the sniping behind closed doors.

Good luck guys and gals, hang in there. Whoever you work for.
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Old 8th Jun 2021, 19:09
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MrKipling View Post
It doesn't take long to get a pilot back on line if they are fairly current right now,
How many pilots are "fairly current" right now?

I suspect that Delta Hotel is amongst the only lot at are anywhere near that!
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Old 8th Jun 2021, 20:51
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A reality check is in order for those who underestimate the difficulty of getting this many people back on board. Many of those who will hopefully be brought back into the game in the coming year will have spent anywhere between 18 and 30 months on the ground, often out of a job and hence not entitled to any recurrent training. At best, they will have their type rating and medical; everything else will have lapsed. Think all the courses like CRM, Dangerous goods, Fatigue risk management etc. Even their Crew IDs will likely no longer be good - and those are not easy to obtain in many countries. There's more than one place where a bottleneck can form. Even if we assume excellent availability of ground courses and sim slots, what about line training and checking? There are only that many trainers in an airline (and not all of them are current themselves, to begin with). It will be a massive effort, taking anywhere between a few weeks for a small operation with a handful of aircraft and many months for the large companies with dozens of aircraft.
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Old 8th Jun 2021, 21:08
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Trossie. Sadly I suspect much truth in that. And my colleagues of course.
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