swiss air + CRX Air = (swiss-lx)=0
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Skypointer:
We all know what an avid Swissair fan Sepp Moser is, and his mishap with the water/fuel mixture in his tank is also well known.
The above notwithstanding, he has in his article come up with figures, and there is little point in accusing him of ignorance or even malice, unless someone can put forward other (and possibly more correct) figures.
733829:
I'm not sure how your calculation of the total number of pilots has any bearing on their productivity, as Sepp Moser's definition of "productivity" is the revenue earned per pilot per month.
However, the issue becomes more interesting if we look at "pilot profitability", by dividing the total revenue on regional routes with the aggregate remuneration of regional pilots, and compare that figure with the total revenue on long haul routes divided by the aggregate remuneration of long haul pilots.
We already know that the total remuneration bill for the long haul pilots (i.e. ex-SR pilots) amounts to around CHF173 million. The equivalent figure for the 1,050 ex-Crossair pilots is around CHF100 million.
Even Arthur Andersen could (if they were still around) and Sepp Moser can figure out that if revenue from long haul and regional operations is the same, pilot profitability of the regional operations would be 1.7 times higher. Conversely, in order to be as profitable as the regional routes, the revenue from the long haul network has to be 70% higher than that of the regional operations.
We all know what an avid Swissair fan Sepp Moser is, and his mishap with the water/fuel mixture in his tank is also well known.
The above notwithstanding, he has in his article come up with figures, and there is little point in accusing him of ignorance or even malice, unless someone can put forward other (and possibly more correct) figures.
733829:
I'm not sure how your calculation of the total number of pilots has any bearing on their productivity, as Sepp Moser's definition of "productivity" is the revenue earned per pilot per month.
However, the issue becomes more interesting if we look at "pilot profitability", by dividing the total revenue on regional routes with the aggregate remuneration of regional pilots, and compare that figure with the total revenue on long haul routes divided by the aggregate remuneration of long haul pilots.
We already know that the total remuneration bill for the long haul pilots (i.e. ex-SR pilots) amounts to around CHF173 million. The equivalent figure for the 1,050 ex-Crossair pilots is around CHF100 million.
Even Arthur Andersen could (if they were still around) and Sepp Moser can figure out that if revenue from long haul and regional operations is the same, pilot profitability of the regional operations would be 1.7 times higher. Conversely, in order to be as profitable as the regional routes, the revenue from the long haul network has to be 70% higher than that of the regional operations.
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 14th Sep 2002 at 08:50.
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R I C
You still don't get it, he? It was the SAir Group, of which LX was part of, that made this debit. Also former LX helped quite a bit to grow this figures. So for the next time you spread your wisdom, switch on your brain first!
You still don't get it, he? It was the SAir Group, of which LX was part of, that made this debit. Also former LX helped quite a bit to grow this figures. So for the next time you spread your wisdom, switch on your brain first!
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At least I have a brain.
Crossair has been a succesfull rapidly growing company. It was a flexible airline with good service standard . It has been a profitable company in the past.
This is exactly why the new airline is build upon the old Crossair philosofy. It was a succesfull formula.
I also think that the ex-Swissair pilots have nothing to do with the Swissair fiasco. They are very professional and hard working pilots but their mentality towards ex-Crossair staff stinks.
I can not understand their arguments and the way they issue their views.
Crossair has been a succesfull rapidly growing company. It was a flexible airline with good service standard . It has been a profitable company in the past.
This is exactly why the new airline is build upon the old Crossair philosofy. It was a succesfull formula.
I also think that the ex-Swissair pilots have nothing to do with the Swissair fiasco. They are very professional and hard working pilots but their mentality towards ex-Crossair staff stinks.
I can not understand their arguments and the way they issue their views.
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RIC
On whose cost Crossair was rapidly growing? Maybe you still remember on how many times you called clearance delivery with the callsign Swissair?? I admit, it was a clever move from MS to increase LX's fleet size and let SR paying for. But more it was very stupid from SR management to let that happen. But be honest, where would LX be without SR. It would still be a healthy niche-carrier. But most of you guys wouldn'have a job there. Cause there would not be a need for that many pilots.
And for the second point; I don't care if you get more money even if it is above worlds average. But don't take it from my salary (because mine is about 40% below). I have already payed my due.
BTW I still say hello to anybody in the Ops-Center. I can not understand why most of the time I don't get an answer from ex LX staff. Do you think this doesn't stink. Or is this our future attitude.
Don't make us responsible for your unions childish attitude. They had the chance to participate and ran away although the negotiations were legal (even recognized by the court, as you know).
On whose cost Crossair was rapidly growing? Maybe you still remember on how many times you called clearance delivery with the callsign Swissair?? I admit, it was a clever move from MS to increase LX's fleet size and let SR paying for. But more it was very stupid from SR management to let that happen. But be honest, where would LX be without SR. It would still be a healthy niche-carrier. But most of you guys wouldn'have a job there. Cause there would not be a need for that many pilots.
And for the second point; I don't care if you get more money even if it is above worlds average. But don't take it from my salary (because mine is about 40% below). I have already payed my due.
BTW I still say hello to anybody in the Ops-Center. I can not understand why most of the time I don't get an answer from ex LX staff. Do you think this doesn't stink. Or is this our future attitude.
Don't make us responsible for your unions childish attitude. They had the chance to participate and ran away although the negotiations were legal (even recognized by the court, as you know).
Last edited by what_goes_up; 16th Sep 2002 at 07:57.
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WGU : I appreciate your comments. Your arguments are reasonable however, outsourcing production in the past was due to the fact that Crossair product was cheaper and specially used on low demand routing were Airbus was simply to big or expensive. True that a lot of Crossair production was Swissair flight. This is also what is happening in Lufthansa(cityline) and KLM(cityhopper) and BA (Cityexpress)etc...
As for Swissair current salary; I know it is below average.
I also don't mind Airbus earns more than Saab.
Studi : Your figures might be correct but your reasoning with it doesn't make any sense. You get a better picture if you take revenue minus costs times amount of pilots. With other words profit/pilot. Whole other outcome.
But all this figure bla bla, I do not care. I would prefer to see Swiss figures to be good and interesting conditions for both OC1 and OC2.
I am having a beer now; Cheers !
As for Swissair current salary; I know it is below average.
I also don't mind Airbus earns more than Saab.
Studi : Your figures might be correct but your reasoning with it doesn't make any sense. You get a better picture if you take revenue minus costs times amount of pilots. With other words profit/pilot. Whole other outcome.
But all this figure bla bla, I do not care. I would prefer to see Swiss figures to be good and interesting conditions for both OC1 and OC2.
I am having a beer now; Cheers !
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studi:
The figures for Swissair revenue in 2000 are at most of historical interest and have little or no bearing on today's situation. I tried to open the pdf file but was unsuccessful so far. In the meantime the following questions/issues that would spring to mind are:
a) is the revenue of CHF 5.8 billion that of SAir Group or that of the airline operations only?
b) the long haul fleet size and the number of long haul destinations have been cut back since
c) SR's network formerly included short and medium haul destinations that today are essentially "Crossair" destinations
d) "Swiss" have just reported revenue of CHF 1.75 billion for the first six months of 2002, which would suggest annual revenue of around CHF 4 billion
The figures for Swissair revenue in 2000 are at most of historical interest and have little or no bearing on today's situation. I tried to open the pdf file but was unsuccessful so far. In the meantime the following questions/issues that would spring to mind are:
a) is the revenue of CHF 5.8 billion that of SAir Group or that of the airline operations only?
b) the long haul fleet size and the number of long haul destinations have been cut back since
c) SR's network formerly included short and medium haul destinations that today are essentially "Crossair" destinations
d) "Swiss" have just reported revenue of CHF 1.75 billion for the first six months of 2002, which would suggest annual revenue of around CHF 4 billion
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 16th Sep 2002 at 06:54.
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studi:
I am not sure how you come to your conclusion about productivity. We're not talking of past productivity and profitability, but of present conditions, where it is possible to compare ex-SR and ex-Crossair pilots side-by-side in real time.
Again, unless anyone can come up with current figures to contradict those splashed around by Sepp Moser, there is no point in debating the issue.
Just because the message is unpalatable, we shouldn't be shooting the messenger.......
I am not sure how you come to your conclusion about productivity. We're not talking of past productivity and profitability, but of present conditions, where it is possible to compare ex-SR and ex-Crossair pilots side-by-side in real time.
Again, unless anyone can come up with current figures to contradict those splashed around by Sepp Moser, there is no point in debating the issue.
Just because the message is unpalatable, we shouldn't be shooting the messenger.......
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Just a question, can anyone guess how long will swiss remain in th business? or how long does it take before spliting into 2(Regional and long haul). Above two point will solve all our discussion.
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we shouldn't be shooting the messenger
He cannot operate a small plane decently, he has no idea how an Airbus works, he dreams up his figures and doesn't know his mats. Who did make him an aviation expert? Alpha Leader, don't you have any better sources? This is embarassing!
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skypointer:
I find it embarrassing that you continue to rail against the author of an article instead of coming up with factual arguments.
As for the A330 matter: you will note from other threads, such as the one which covered the GF072 crash (A320), that even A3X0 pilots are sometimes at odds over the exact capabilities of the on-board computer systems to override pilot error.
studi:
We are in 2002, not 2000. Let's agree on that, and that the projected total revenue of long haul and regional operations for Swiss will be around CHF 4 billion for 2002.
Once we know separate revenue figures for long haul and regional operations respectively, we can work out
a) revenue per pilot
b) profitability per pilot (revenue minus average salary).
Until then, let's sit back an forget 2000.
I find it embarrassing that you continue to rail against the author of an article instead of coming up with factual arguments.
As for the A330 matter: you will note from other threads, such as the one which covered the GF072 crash (A320), that even A3X0 pilots are sometimes at odds over the exact capabilities of the on-board computer systems to override pilot error.
studi:
We are in 2002, not 2000. Let's agree on that, and that the projected total revenue of long haul and regional operations for Swiss will be around CHF 4 billion for 2002.
Once we know separate revenue figures for long haul and regional operations respectively, we can work out
a) revenue per pilot
b) profitability per pilot (revenue minus average salary).
Until then, let's sit back an forget 2000.
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@ AL
So you want a proof that Sepp Moser is working with wrong figures, you shall have it:
The topic of an A330 with flaps out at FL 330 was discussed already. I just don't agree with you, that a misprint like this can happen. This is basic aerodynamics and if one just switches on his brain, he must be aware that there someting can not be right. For an aviation expert, as SM calls himself, it's basic knowledge. But I agree that the problems of highlevel and highspeed aerodynamics have not to be known to a C152 pilot. I doubt if he has ever flown something larger and faster than this.
Second proof:
The right figures are:
F/O 4th year of service:
Swissar: 104'817 Swiss: 95'900
Where is this 7% increase? For me it is a decrease of roughly 8.5%. Deduct the retirement fund and you get 15%. to that my personal final target in my pension fund decreased by 2 third (yes you read that right 2/3. I will only get one third of that planned.). How should the net payout with swiss be higher than thatone from Swissair?
Even worse for CMD: I don't give you the exact figures, because I am F/O and don't spread around with others salaries. But I figured out that a CMD after 30 years of service looses about 32% of his net income. Not yet taken in account the decrease in paid expenses of 25% (same for F/O).
I just calculated the average salary of a ex SR pilot with 30 years of service, upgrading after 12 years (very optimistic, I know). It's SFR 175'500. It's only about 14% wrong. Are your inertial system working with the same error and everybody is happy with this minor negligible fault?
BTW:
If the ex LX figure of average salary is correct,with the new contract they would reach this as F/O after 11 years and as CMD (what most of them are already) after 3 years of service.
Ex SR reaches their average as F/O after 20 years and as CMD after 14 years.
There are several other things that were simply a lie in Sepp Mosers articles over the past years. But I hope you do not urge to post all of them.
I find it even more embarrassing that the public is fed with proofably wrong information by a lunatic like Sepp Moser who still fight with the non-acceptance as pilot with Swissair and ATC controller at skyguide (former Radio Schweiz/ Swisscontrol).
These are the things that really poison the present situation.
So you want a proof that Sepp Moser is working with wrong figures, you shall have it:
The topic of an A330 with flaps out at FL 330 was discussed already. I just don't agree with you, that a misprint like this can happen. This is basic aerodynamics and if one just switches on his brain, he must be aware that there someting can not be right. For an aviation expert, as SM calls himself, it's basic knowledge. But I agree that the problems of highlevel and highspeed aerodynamics have not to be known to a C152 pilot. I doubt if he has ever flown something larger and faster than this.
Second proof:
Young F/O X has four years of service. His basic salary at former SR was just above CHF 100,000 p.a. At Swiss, he is now earning CHF108,700, an increase of 7%. Although he now has to contribute half of his contributions to the retirement fund himself (SR used to pay all contributions), his net payout is still somewhat higher than at former SR. So: no trace of any 35% salary sacrifice.
F/O 4th year of service:
Swissar: 104'817 Swiss: 95'900
Where is this 7% increase? For me it is a decrease of roughly 8.5%. Deduct the retirement fund and you get 15%. to that my personal final target in my pension fund decreased by 2 third (yes you read that right 2/3. I will only get one third of that planned.). How should the net payout with swiss be higher than thatone from Swissair?
Even worse for CMD: I don't give you the exact figures, because I am F/O and don't spread around with others salaries. But I figured out that a CMD after 30 years of service looses about 32% of his net income. Not yet taken in account the decrease in paid expenses of 25% (same for F/O).
All said, Swiss pays its total of 850 ex-SR pilots (of which 829 are full-time) an average of CHF203,530 p.a.
BTW:
If the ex LX figure of average salary is correct,with the new contract they would reach this as F/O after 11 years and as CMD (what most of them are already) after 3 years of service.
Ex SR reaches their average as F/O after 20 years and as CMD after 14 years.
There are several other things that were simply a lie in Sepp Mosers articles over the past years. But I hope you do not urge to post all of them.
I find it embarrassing that you continue to rail against the author of an article instead of coming up with factual arguments.
These are the things that really poison the present situation.
Last edited by what_goes_up; 17th Sep 2002 at 14:16.
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what_goes_up:
Appreciate your posting of figures in contrast with those in Sepp Moser's article. As both you and he are obviously using examples which can be documented, neither you nor he can be accused of being totally wrong or commended for being singularly right.
At the core of the issue is, really, what has happened to the statistical average of ex-SR pilots' salaries.
Given the huge infusion of public money into Swiss Intl Air Lines it is astonishing that the otherwise rather aggressive corporate PR machine has not been turned on to officially correct any wrong figures that Sepp Moser's article might have communicated to the public, or indeed to refute his allegations of inflight mishaps.
Indeed, I'm surprised that - given that his tenure as "Swiss" PR expert is fast running out - Thomas Borer has not been asked to step in and spread the official gospel.
Appreciate your posting of figures in contrast with those in Sepp Moser's article. As both you and he are obviously using examples which can be documented, neither you nor he can be accused of being totally wrong or commended for being singularly right.
At the core of the issue is, really, what has happened to the statistical average of ex-SR pilots' salaries.
Given the huge infusion of public money into Swiss Intl Air Lines it is astonishing that the otherwise rather aggressive corporate PR machine has not been turned on to officially correct any wrong figures that Sepp Moser's article might have communicated to the public, or indeed to refute his allegations of inflight mishaps.
Indeed, I'm surprised that - given that his tenure as "Swiss" PR expert is fast running out - Thomas Borer has not been asked to step in and spread the official gospel.
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Alpha Leader
I used exactly the exampels he was using and I took this figures from our old and new CLA. So Sepp Mosers figures can't be right. If we would turn on that PR machine, as you suggested, it would just be another "arrogant" act from ex SR. Don't you agree?
For me this figures are proof enough (with other examples). Now it's your choice whome you are believing. I do have it black and white on my papers. I doubt if Mister Mosers figures are more than hot air!
I used exactly the exampels he was using and I took this figures from our old and new CLA. So Sepp Mosers figures can't be right. If we would turn on that PR machine, as you suggested, it would just be another "arrogant" act from ex SR. Don't you agree?
For me this figures are proof enough (with other examples). Now it's your choice whome you are believing. I do have it black and white on my papers. I doubt if Mister Mosers figures are more than hot air!
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what goes up:
Well..... very simple indeed: you and Sepp Moser can't both be right then, although the examples he mentioned do hold water mathematically. But he's gone public with his figures and has, so far apparently, not been publicly challenged about them, particularly not with regard to his sweeping statement that not one single ex-SR pilot has had to forego 35% in salary reductions (using his basis for calculation).
Well..... very simple indeed: you and Sepp Moser can't both be right then, although the examples he mentioned do hold water mathematically. But he's gone public with his figures and has, so far apparently, not been publicly challenged about them, particularly not with regard to his sweeping statement that not one single ex-SR pilot has had to forego 35% in salary reductions (using his basis for calculation).
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studi:
...except for airlines where this is apparently not so, such as SK.
But nevertheless, let's wait for the annual figures and the breakdown into regional and long haul revenue and personnel costs
In this ratio lies the truth why regional pilots will never be paid the same money like wide-body-pilots
But nevertheless, let's wait for the annual figures and the breakdown into regional and long haul revenue and personnel costs
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studi:
You're probably being a bit presumptuous (I would hate to resort to your right/wrong stereotyping) here - a commuter airline is not a regional airline, although conversely a regional airline might offer what could be termed commuter flights.
What about all the B737's, for instance? Ryanair, a regional carrier, is all-737 with up to 189 pax. Plus there are various MD's in the list, none of which - one would assume, at least - venture beyond regional destinations. These a/c would add another cool 122 planes to your 28 ballshakers.
However, to revert to the matter at hand: you can bet your bottom dollar on the breakdown of figures into regional and long haul operations at "Swiss" making it into the public domain.
You're probably being a bit presumptuous (I would hate to resort to your right/wrong stereotyping) here - a commuter airline is not a regional airline, although conversely a regional airline might offer what could be termed commuter flights.
What about all the B737's, for instance? Ryanair, a regional carrier, is all-737 with up to 189 pax. Plus there are various MD's in the list, none of which - one would assume, at least - venture beyond regional destinations. These a/c would add another cool 122 planes to your 28 ballshakers.
However, to revert to the matter at hand: you can bet your bottom dollar on the breakdown of figures into regional and long haul operations at "Swiss" making it into the public domain.
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studi:
Let's leave all judgments on productivity and profitability for after the "Swiss" 2002 annual report (assuming they will remain in business under the current structure for the full fiscal year).
Your "common sense" figures are, as you after all state yourself, assumptions.
By the way: you will note that on the "Swiss" web site, only 27 a/c are denoted as "long haul". Let's hope their financial reports offer better separation between figures pertaining to ex-Crossair and ex-SR operations.
What's with the 156'535?
Let's leave all judgments on productivity and profitability for after the "Swiss" 2002 annual report (assuming they will remain in business under the current structure for the full fiscal year).
Your "common sense" figures are, as you after all state yourself, assumptions.
By the way: you will note that on the "Swiss" web site, only 27 a/c are denoted as "long haul". Let's hope their financial reports offer better separation between figures pertaining to ex-Crossair and ex-SR operations.
What's with the 156'535?
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F/O 4th year Swissair salary and pension pay: sFr. 147'267.00.
F/O 4th year Swiss salary and pension pay: sFr. 102'613.00.
Difference minus 30.3% plus travelexpenses minus 75% equals to about 2-5%. Here we have the 35%.
This figures I have black on white on original documents!!!!!
I understand the difference between main airline and regional (commuter) airline not in aircraft size but on network where they operate. If you have a network with marginal traffic or marginal prices you have to have a less expensive operation. That’s all!
F/O 4th year Swiss salary and pension pay: sFr. 102'613.00.
Difference minus 30.3% plus travelexpenses minus 75% equals to about 2-5%. Here we have the 35%.
This figures I have black on white on original documents!!!!!
I understand the difference between main airline and regional (commuter) airline not in aircraft size but on network where they operate. If you have a network with marginal traffic or marginal prices you have to have a less expensive operation. That’s all!