Ryanair to recruit 1000 Pilots
Joined: May 2008
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From: Planet earth
Wake up
eduelp
Right on.
Time for pilots to stop accepting poor conditions, pay to fly.
Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
What we think, we become.
We all need to play our part and be responsable to that the ones who have their asses on the line get the pay they deserve.
Remember the CEOs get bonuses to negotiate our pay less.
Until pilots stand up like men....
Not easy but worth fighting for better conditions and get the respect back. As the Sully movie comes out
Right on.
Time for pilots to stop accepting poor conditions, pay to fly.
Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
What we think, we become.
We all need to play our part and be responsable to that the ones who have their asses on the line get the pay they deserve.
Remember the CEOs get bonuses to negotiate our pay less.
Until pilots stand up like men....
Not easy but worth fighting for better conditions and get the respect back. As the Sully movie comes out
Joined: Nov 2014
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
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From: six micro tesla zone
Just got this off ppjn:
"new agency called bluesky set up with much lower pay rates. Capt rates 125e per hr vs 145 storm, top fo rate 63e per hr vs 83 on brookfield or 75 with storm..."
Any truth to it?
If true it, its in stark contrast to the record profits Ryanair are making at the minute.
"new agency called bluesky set up with much lower pay rates. Capt rates 125e per hr vs 145 storm, top fo rate 63e per hr vs 83 on brookfield or 75 with storm..."
Any truth to it?
If true it, its in stark contrast to the record profits Ryanair are making at the minute.
Joined: Aug 2015
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From: Escaped the sandpit 53° 32′ 9.19″ N, 9° 50′ 13.29″ E
According to an german newspaper that's correct. It's mentioned in the Sueddeutsche
Guaranteed are 450 hours, holiday pay and no sick pay
Ryanair will Piloten nun doch anstellen - Wirtschaft - Süddeutsche.de
In einem internen Bluesky-Schreiben, das WDR, NDR und SZ vorliegt, werden die Details der neuen Arbeitsverträge dargestellt. Demnach werden die Piloten weiterhin nur nach Stunden bezahlt, Kapitäne bekommen rund 125 Euro, Co-Piloten 63 Euro, hinzu kommt noch Urlaubsgeld. Erreichen die Piloten die maximal zulässige Zahl von 900 Stunden pro Jahr, verdienen Kapitäne etwa 125 000 Euro, die Co-Piloten etwa die Hälfte. Allerdings zahlt Bluesky dem Schreiben zufolge kein Basisgehalt und will nur 450 Flugstunden pro Jahr garantieren. Bei Krankheit verdienen die Piloten nichts.
Ryanair will Piloten nun doch anstellen - Wirtschaft - Süddeutsche.de
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
MP. Are you suggesting that an airline can force a self-employed contractor to be provide their services via one agency instead of another, with no choice, when one agency is offering lower rates than another?
Joined: Nov 2014
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From: six micro tesla zone
Ryanair pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools
Pretty drastic reductions if indeed true, to spell it out:
Storm Captain E145 x 850hrs = E123,250 gross pa
'bluesky' Captain E125 x 850hrs = E106,250 gross pa
Brookfield SFO E83 x 850hrs = E70,550 gross pa
Storm SFO E75 x 850hrs = E63,750 gross pa
'bluesky' SFO E63 x 850hrs = E53,550 gross pa
Joined: Jan 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Between a rock and a hard place
Is the employment model with Bluesky the same as with Brookfield/Storm?
I have a gut feeling this model is similar to the cabin crew arrangement (and Norwegian), i.e. direct employment with the agency. Would it not be suicidal to put up another self-employment scam after all the fuss that's been with that employment model in Germany?
I have a gut feeling this model is similar to the cabin crew arrangement (and Norwegian), i.e. direct employment with the agency. Would it not be suicidal to put up another self-employment scam after all the fuss that's been with that employment model in Germany?
Joined: May 2008
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From: 04°11′30″N 073°31′45″E
Brookfield -> Investigation -> Brookfield closed.
Storm Mc Ginley (lower pay) -> Investigation -> Storm closed.
Bluesky (lower pay) -> guess in a couple of years.
And so on.... Congratulations.
Storm Mc Ginley (lower pay) -> Investigation -> Storm closed.
Bluesky (lower pay) -> guess in a couple of years.
And so on.... Congratulations.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 532
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From: UK
As eduelp eloquently said on the previous page:
...........and now we see this new agency arrive with markedly lower levels of pay which, let's not be naive about this, some pilots will accept without question.
We, as a pilot community, are indeed the "utter culprits of this situation."
Sadly all these ever decreasing T&C don't have a guiltier party than the pilot community itself...
We have seen and accepted all these ever decreasing T&C for many many years with no action whatsoever. This is even more true in airlines of the likes of RYR.
Don't blame recessions, don't blame the lack of European Commission support, don't even blame MOL. In the end it is just us the pilots having no balls at all the utter culprits of this situation. It really pisses me off...
And until that changes, the T&Cs all over Europe will keep going down...
We have seen and accepted all these ever decreasing T&C for many many years with no action whatsoever. This is even more true in airlines of the likes of RYR.
Don't blame recessions, don't blame the lack of European Commission support, don't even blame MOL. In the end it is just us the pilots having no balls at all the utter culprits of this situation. It really pisses me off...
And until that changes, the T&Cs all over Europe will keep going down...
We, as a pilot community, are indeed the "utter culprits of this situation."
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
Indeed. What is very sad is the reversal of old edicts. I have an old mento from my father which he had on his desk throughout his management career. "Things go wrong from the top down." It used to be true in the days of respectful ethics. It related to internal workings of the company and any effects on productivity & profit. It was the chiefs who had the greatest effect on those not the indians.
Sadly, the same can not now be said of T's & C's. Under pressure from the top the lower levels have capitulated and allowed things to to go wrong from the bottom. Back to the future and the middle ages of peasantry and land owners.
Sadly, the same can not now be said of T's & C's. Under pressure from the top the lower levels have capitulated and allowed things to to go wrong from the bottom. Back to the future and the middle ages of peasantry and land owners.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: commuter
I came across some info about the bluesky, apparently they were forced to create this setup as they now will have to pay a certain amount of social contribution , not much but some, and give holiday pay and son on to be able to be legal in Germany , this setup of course required to move the money from pilots pocket to company as to be the same cost overall. In all honesty , a direct employed pilot with Ryanair can't be expected to pay all taxes and legal social security and earn -50% net of a contractor that refuses to pay , in most cases , the most basic contributions and laught his way forward (ex. 3700 FO Ryanair , 7800 FO Brooksfield, seen with my own 2 eyes) . Still not ideal but this is slightly more plain field . But I may be wrong, all this info was from a forum of pilots working for the mentioned company .
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Philippines
I'm always surprised that the UK HMRC hasn't clamped down heavily on contract pilots.
This must be a political expedient rather than one based purely on regulatory considerations.
Self-employed people must, together with other considerations, have the opportunity to substitute themselves and should be able to show that they do not have a fixed location to carry out there duties. Otherwise it could be construed that they are 'employed'.
How a pilot could 'substitute' their services (by allowing another, similarly qualified individual, to carry out their duties in their absence) is hard to imagine - and the left or right hand seat of a jet is a pretty 'fixed' as their base through which they carry out those duties.
This employment -v- self-employment arguments are ongoing in many industries - maybe the HMRC aren't really that bothered after all.
But it is a real concern and any decent contract for professional services will make it VERY clear that you are NOT an employee by expressly stating that it is not a contract of employment.
Maybe the airlines make that very clear too - the problem is that the manner in which the service is provided contradicts any terms and conditions stated to the contrary and the regulations of the HMRC.
I've stated in the past that one English pilot I met, who flew with an Irish carrier, openly stated that if the HMRC could track him down as a UK pilot, flying for an Irish carrier and based in Spain good look to them. They haven't so far, so lots of tax evaded there ... !!! lol
This must be a political expedient rather than one based purely on regulatory considerations.
Self-employed people must, together with other considerations, have the opportunity to substitute themselves and should be able to show that they do not have a fixed location to carry out there duties. Otherwise it could be construed that they are 'employed'.
How a pilot could 'substitute' their services (by allowing another, similarly qualified individual, to carry out their duties in their absence) is hard to imagine - and the left or right hand seat of a jet is a pretty 'fixed' as their base through which they carry out those duties.
This employment -v- self-employment arguments are ongoing in many industries - maybe the HMRC aren't really that bothered after all.
But it is a real concern and any decent contract for professional services will make it VERY clear that you are NOT an employee by expressly stating that it is not a contract of employment.
Maybe the airlines make that very clear too - the problem is that the manner in which the service is provided contradicts any terms and conditions stated to the contrary and the regulations of the HMRC.
I've stated in the past that one English pilot I met, who flew with an Irish carrier, openly stated that if the HMRC could track him down as a UK pilot, flying for an Irish carrier and based in Spain good look to them. They haven't so far, so lots of tax evaded there ... !!! lol
Joined: Jul 1998
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From: between 20 & 30 000'
in everyone's rush to get a left seat in a shiny new jet, they are accepting reduced/lower contracts and terms to get the left seat. They have achieved, in aviation terms, instant gratification.
Where to from there?
NOWHERE!!!
After a short time in the industry, a mid twenty something pilot is in the left seat of a shiny new jet, on poor conditions. Now the trick is to find a job with the great package the kid saw when he/she was young. Ooops, that package no longer exists.
I think the big change will come when the present group of younger pilots realise this, see what the next 40 years in the industry at these poor conditions will be like and start demanding better
Where to from there?
NOWHERE!!!
After a short time in the industry, a mid twenty something pilot is in the left seat of a shiny new jet, on poor conditions. Now the trick is to find a job with the great package the kid saw when he/she was young. Ooops, that package no longer exists.
I think the big change will come when the present group of younger pilots realise this, see what the next 40 years in the industry at these poor conditions will be like and start demanding better
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 4
From: last time I looked I was still here.
I think the big change will come when the present group of younger pilots realise this, see what the next 40 years in the industry at these poor conditions will be like and start demanding better
There are those who opinion that this realisation will cause young aspiring pilots to change course and not sign up. Supply & demand forces might then come into play. China seems to be throwing money like confetti. There must be a reason for it. Will it ever happen in the western world? Doubt it, but there does need to be an adjustment.
There are those who opinion that this realisation will cause young aspiring pilots to change course and not sign up. Supply & demand forces might then come into play. China seems to be throwing money like confetti. There must be a reason for it. Will it ever happen in the western world? Doubt it, but there does need to be an adjustment.
Joined: Aug 2015
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From: Escaped the sandpit 53° 32′ 9.19″ N, 9° 50′ 13.29″ E
Interesting development in Germany.
Vereinigung Cockpit e.V. : Details
This could be very interesting....
Vereinigung Cockpit e.V. : Details
Pilots of Ryanair in Germany join together
The German based pilots of the airline Ryanair founded a Company Council today under the umbrella of the German Airline Pilots Association (Vereinigung Cockpit) (VC).
For the first time, Ryanair pilots are organizing themselves in Germany in order to avoid the airline's questionable treatment of its employees. The goal will be to positively influence Ryanair's employment conditions. "What is self-evident for other employees in Germany, we must first achieve at Ryanair," says a member of the Company Council. "Decent employment contracts instead of atypical employment is one of the main goals of the Company Council."
Based on the principle, pilots for pilots, the Company Council is composed of active Ryanair pilots representing all groups. Members include Captains and First Officers who are directly employed as well as working for Ryanair on the so-called "Contractor model". To protect the Company Council from possible reprisals from Ryanair, the members of the Council will remain anonymous for the time being.
The current situation at Ryanair creates uncertainty within the pilot body and puts unusual pressure on the employees. The on-going court trials and investigations, including many house searches in Germany, show just how dramatic the situation is for the Ryanair pilots.
"The founding of the Ryanair Company Council clearly shows that the airline's pilots are no longer willing to accept the doubtful methods used by their employer. In the future, they will act united to achieve their basic employee rights," says Ilja Schulz, president of the German Airlines Pilots Association.
"In Germany we have workers' rights which apply to all pilots based here. Ryanair must finally acknowledge this. Ryanair pilots must be able to express their wishes and concerns about working conditions and salary without fear of discrimination from the management, " says Schulz.
The newly formed group benefits from the long-standing experience of the German Airlines Pilots Association in aviation safety and employee representation within the aviation industry.
The German based pilots of the airline Ryanair founded a Company Council today under the umbrella of the German Airline Pilots Association (Vereinigung Cockpit) (VC).
For the first time, Ryanair pilots are organizing themselves in Germany in order to avoid the airline's questionable treatment of its employees. The goal will be to positively influence Ryanair's employment conditions. "What is self-evident for other employees in Germany, we must first achieve at Ryanair," says a member of the Company Council. "Decent employment contracts instead of atypical employment is one of the main goals of the Company Council."
Based on the principle, pilots for pilots, the Company Council is composed of active Ryanair pilots representing all groups. Members include Captains and First Officers who are directly employed as well as working for Ryanair on the so-called "Contractor model". To protect the Company Council from possible reprisals from Ryanair, the members of the Council will remain anonymous for the time being.
The current situation at Ryanair creates uncertainty within the pilot body and puts unusual pressure on the employees. The on-going court trials and investigations, including many house searches in Germany, show just how dramatic the situation is for the Ryanair pilots.
"The founding of the Ryanair Company Council clearly shows that the airline's pilots are no longer willing to accept the doubtful methods used by their employer. In the future, they will act united to achieve their basic employee rights," says Ilja Schulz, president of the German Airlines Pilots Association.
"In Germany we have workers' rights which apply to all pilots based here. Ryanair must finally acknowledge this. Ryanair pilots must be able to express their wishes and concerns about working conditions and salary without fear of discrimination from the management, " says Schulz.
The newly formed group benefits from the long-standing experience of the German Airlines Pilots Association in aviation safety and employee representation within the aviation industry.
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Sydney
Germany is a signatory to the conventions of the International Labor Organization. Those representing Ryanair pilots in Germany should read the ILO Guide to Regulating the Employment Relationship in Europe:-
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
“GERMANY– “Employee-like persons” (or quasi workers) are recognized in Germany (so-called arbeitnehmerahnliche person). Labor courts have jurisdiction in relation to employee-like persons and the general terms and conditions of their contracts are subject to judicial supervision.
Employee-like persons are entitled to collective bargaining. The essential features of the category of employee-like persons are statutorily established in Section 12a of the Act on Collective Bargaining Agreements”
The same ILO conventions defining the ‘employment relationship’ and associated collective bargaining rights apply to pilots at another low cost carrier. For whatever reason, those chumps would rather pay union dues for representation to the service provider agency, rather than representation to the airline controlling their working and “family” life.
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
“GERMANY– “Employee-like persons” (or quasi workers) are recognized in Germany (so-called arbeitnehmerahnliche person). Labor courts have jurisdiction in relation to employee-like persons and the general terms and conditions of their contracts are subject to judicial supervision.
Employee-like persons are entitled to collective bargaining. The essential features of the category of employee-like persons are statutorily established in Section 12a of the Act on Collective Bargaining Agreements”
The same ILO conventions defining the ‘employment relationship’ and associated collective bargaining rights apply to pilots at another low cost carrier. For whatever reason, those chumps would rather pay union dues for representation to the service provider agency, rather than representation to the airline controlling their working and “family” life.