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Norwegian - Last 36 pilots not needed during the winter.

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Norwegian - Last 36 pilots not needed during the winter.

Old 6th Jul 2015, 09:48
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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M-ONGO, off topic but how do you insert a quote as you have done?
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 09:54
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Cut the text you need then hit the button third from the right (speech bubble)

Paste the text within the lines.
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 10:00
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M-ONGO View Post
Cut the text you need then hit the button third from the right (speech bubble)

Paste the text within the lines.
Or just hit the quote button in the post you wish to quote.
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 10:54
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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minimumunstick,

I cannot claim any particular skill for predictions, but what I posted back in February (the "offer" to take unpaid leave" ) coupled with the clear example of what happened the previous Winter, and bearing in mind the lack of any promise from Norwegian that going forward this clearly could not be allowed to happen again, made it pretty clear that this was a likely outcome.

Totally agree, that for some there was no better option available, and believe me I am not rejoicing in the fate of the unfortunates involved. What I cannot do though is offer too much sympathy for those who failed to see it coming, we are, after all, supposed to try & stay ahead of the game whilst exercising this profession, skills we should apply to our thinking with regard to our employment scenario too.
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 11:29
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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M-ONGO and LSM...... Thanks chaps. I view PPRuNe on an iPad so will take a look....
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 12:40
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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The captain who was alledgely (as per previous poster) promised Lgw and ultimately told he had to go to Spain won't get any sympathy. There is a base system in place and it is based on seniority- everyone who does an ounce of research before signing their contract will know that. Good luck to him or her.
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 14:18
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Widebdy - I read it that he had a contract at Gatwick (signed and accepted) and that the company decided to change it to a Spanish one. If that was the case then I for one are somewhat under impressed by the company position and actions.
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 15:34
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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I fully agree, if true I am not impressed nor surprised by the companies actions but I still struggle to have pity for the individual.

There is a small number of pilots moaning that they were "promised" a certain base - contract or not - there isn't much reason to complain. The greatest tragedy for many people in Ryanair (where most of us have come from) was the lack of a transparent basing system - it had the potential to ruin families and family planning- a big problem in a company with so many bases and the willingness to open and close them in a blink of an eye. In Norwegian we have a system and yet pilots think they can walk into Norwegian and skip the queue for a base - contract or no contract - that selfish attitude is not welcome. I will be the last to defend any company making broken promises, however the health warnings regarding those promises were public knowledge. The seniority system is there for everyones long term benefit.

Go to the junior base and do your time. In any event given the expansion a UK base will not take very long. The reward for short term pain will be a protected place in a base you want.

Norwegian has issues but it has a certain amount of established "transparent" systems which are followed 95% of the time. Issues can be fixed through improved communication and negotiations. Essentially, as usual pilots will need to act collectively to encourage the company to move in a certain direction. Pilots believing promises or signing contracts that go against those systems like basing are not helping anyone. A number of pilots who got notified of lay offs this winter apparently only joined the union last week and then demand help - reap what you sow.

Last edited by Widebdy; 6th Jul 2015 at 23:44.
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 16:03
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Latest info from Oslo is the company met the pilots notified of unpaid this winter, and the union rep.

No doubt the pilots explained the individual problems unpaid leave creates, as well as the potential problems of damage to Norwegians reputation as an employer as they approach a time of major recruitment. It will take at least a few days for a solution, should one be forthcoming.
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 18:16
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Widebdy. I don't agree with a number of your comments. You say you have no pity for this individual? Most people reading this would expect an employer to honour the terms of a signed contract. By signing a contract, both employee and employer agree to certain terms and conditions. It is a legally binding document that defines the parameters of the working relationship. The minute it becomes acceptable to terminate a contract because those terms become a little inconvenient then we are all doomed.

An employer breaking a promise is one thing, but breaching a contract in this way is unacceptable. Would you expect pity if your contract was torn up and you were told you would be terminated if you failed to agree to their new terms? I don't suppose you'd be that amused either. From what I recall this is no different to how Norwegian tried to treat the Scandi pilots over their contracts.

I agree that transparent systems are vital and seniority is all important for base allocation. But what control would this pilot have had over these systems? He received an acceptable contract and signed it. Who would honestly do any different? You say that the seniority system is there for everyone's long term benefit - I agree. However I would add that the legal system of the state takes precedent and is there for all our protection from the unscrupulous actions of immoral employers.

If this event is true, then I do have pity for the pilot concerned - this could happen again to any pilot currently engaged by Norwegian. The actions of the company go to prove that it's moral values are clearly in the gutter.

Last edited by LoCo Commotion; 6th Jul 2015 at 21:37.
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Old 6th Jul 2015, 23:43
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Fair point, I was a little unfair. I would pity any pilot having their contract breached.

It is not acceptable to see any company breaching pilots contracts nor is it acceptable to see any pilot, regardless of their contract, expecting to jump a seniority list. If his or her contract was breached I wish them well in finding a solution. It is worth pointing out that, if true, the situation is unusual, most pilots entering Norwegian, even those with promises, do not have contracts reflecting that and are also well aware their seniority may require them to work from another base for a short time.

Different story for the guys notified about winter unpaid leave but we await further news from Oslo about what solutions are on the table. Norwegian need to get a handle on things quickly if they are too find high quality pilots when recruitment reopens. It is frustrating as generally Norwegian is a nice place to work once clear of the murky area at the bottom of the seniority list. The company need to stop abusing the junior pilots and approach the unions for a mutual solution to such issues.
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Old 7th Jul 2015, 06:57
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Seniority means different things depending on an individual's expectations. One guy may be more senior at base xx but joined the company after another guy at base yy that had more experience. In general the simplest form is by company join date but temporary postings and vague promises raise people's expectations artificially. Whilst it appears NAS are blatantly abusing the contracts on the surface it may well transpire the individuals concerned did not fully understand their positions. Now a permanent contract that gets massaged into a 6 month on 6 month off is another matter and perhaps NAS can take a leaf from the Ryanair book and offer meaningful permanent contracts directly with the company with the associated benefits. Ryanair seemed to have learnt a lesson from the exodus and now concentrate on pilot retention not alienation which appears to be the NAS policy
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Old 7th Jul 2015, 09:49
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Seems like they're going the RYR-route.

Cut costs and push the limits and then back up one notch just enough to keep people.

After such bad PR I really do wonder how they're going to find competent people. Me personally and others where I work now see Norwegian as a sub-Ryanair alternative.
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Old 7th Jul 2015, 13:23
  #54 (permalink)  
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Seems like they're going the RYR-route.

Cut costs and push the limits and then back up one notch just enough to keep people.

After such bad PR I really do wonder how they're going to find competent people. Me personally and others where I work now see Norwegian as a sub-Ryanair alternative.
Havent you heard? If companies like this can't find pilots, they just lower the bar, simple as that. There are always desperate pilots without experience.
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Old 7th Jul 2015, 18:13
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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There is several comments above suggesting Norwegian is "sub-ryanair". A word of caution, using a forum as a tool to weigh up different companies is probably not the best method. Personally I would regard the rates of attrition as a better indicator tool.

For Norwegians reputation to be as low as some people are suggesting goes to show just how poorly management have handled and communicated on some recent issues. They can only blame themselves if they do not attract quality candidates for interview next year. They must improve. In my opinion, Norwegian is a better place to work and Norwegian offer their pilots better longterm prospects.

Yes, Norwegian like all airlines has issues. However Norwegian, or at least their agency, has recently recognised BALPA and is about to start talks with SEPLA. The company fights with unions, like most companies do, but they have not point blank refused to deal with unions. BALPA reps have not been mistreated for putting their name beside the union badge and several have now in fact got line training captain positions. The path is now paved for future issues to at least be discussed in a meaningful way.

Personally I see more light at the end of the Norwegian tunnel then I see at the end of the Ryanair tunnel. All just my humble opinion And each individual will have their own views and requirements.

"Sub-Easyjet" perhaps!
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Old 7th Jul 2015, 19:20
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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It is generally excepted that Easy is the " place to be" if you go the loco route, they are akin to a national carrier in terms of pay and conditions, Ryanair may not have the warm and fussy feeling that NAS seems to inspire but at least at Ryanair guys can get a permanent contract, get a mortgage and have a stable roster. Even though there may be poorly handled communication issues at NAS this is not an excuse to deprive people of a decent and normal lifestyle. I know several guys at NAS, like most are happy with their colleagues and the roster is very light out of Spain, however, due to the ' contract terms" are in the financial wilderness..Lets hope NAS steps up to the mark on this issue and gives meaningful transparent direct employment contracts..
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Old 7th Jul 2015, 20:51
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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RTO

I think its very unlikely that NAS will lower the bar, the nature of their operations in Scandinavia precludes it.

I gather that Norwegian have now offered 50% contract for the winter period to the 36 pilots that are the subject of this thread

Last edited by LNIDA; 7th Jul 2015 at 21:15.
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Old 7th Jul 2015, 22:34
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Delusional, best describes many of you with respect to the legalities of your working relationship with Norwegian. Is there a signature from Norwegian on your agency contract? Do the terms "seniority" and "transparent systems" or similar, appear anywhere in your contract?

The Scandinavian core group are the only pilots having direct employment with Norwegian and associated employment rights. This group was unilaterally divided into three divisions during the strike (possibly illegally) and has a collective agreement with Norwegian for three years. After which, they too will become employees of an agency.

Norwegian is not obliged to give an agency pilot three months notice - they simply instruct the agency they no longer require your services, and the agency gives you three months notice, not Norwegian. The agency may find you alternative work during the three months notice period. If they do not, a clause in the contract indemnifies the agency from your financial loss a result of any action by the lessee airline - read your contract.

Who would you take to an Employment Tribunal? - certainly not Norwegian, they were not your employer.

BALPA and SELPA can only collectively negotiate with an employer. Norwegian has no legal requirement to comply nor honor any agreement reached between a pilot union and their employer agency.

Welcome to the Bjorn Kjos world of employment rights circumvention. A world with no lights at the end of any tunnels.
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Old 7th Jul 2015, 23:05
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Bondi

Pilots flying for Norwegian in Euro bases are not employed by Norwegian, no one is under any illusion about that. They are employed by an agency and just like most pilots they have a 3 month notice period.

The rest is froth, we get paid what we signed up for on time and there are far far worse place to work.
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Old 8th Jul 2015, 10:27
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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"there are far far worse place to work"

That may be the case but temp agency contracts are the poison pill in this industry and its reactions like that and a willingness to take them that is driving conditions down of all operators. The accountants are playing judge the lowest bar and pay 1/1 more and the applications come flying in.
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