Turboprop transition to jet?
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John smith can you explain a bit the experience of these TP And corporate pilots?
It is hard to believe for me. I am a corporatepilot myself. Got accepted by 3 airlines recently but refused due to poor contracts.
It is hard to believe for me. I am a corporatepilot myself. Got accepted by 3 airlines recently but refused due to poor contracts.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Location
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Turboprop pilots or light jets who go to big jets are way better then wannabes, you don't learn piloting in a sim.
Sorry, but that is categorically not the experience of our training department.
I've said it a couple of times on here: the overwhelming majority of training issues here have been with experienced ex-turboprop and corporate jet pilots (captains and FOs).
Cadets have rarely had significant issues in sim or line training.
Turboprop pilots or light jets who go to big jets are way better then wannabes, you don't learn piloting in a sim.
Sorry, but that is categorically not the experience of our training department.
I've said it a couple of times on here: the overwhelming majority of training issues here have been with experienced ex-turboprop and corporate jet pilots (captains and FOs).
Cadets have rarely had significant issues in sim or line training.
If you hire turboprop candidates between 25-35 of age, motivated and capable, there won't be any issues for sure.
Now don't tell me a cadet is safer or more capable then an experienced and well trained ex-turboprop pilot, because this is
and definitly not my experience. When
hits the fan, captain is doing single pilot. That is what I heard. Now tell me you'll disconnect the AP at 10000' and have you cadet fly the approach at minimums with a strong crosswind on his own. Yup sure me too I drink coolaid.
I have come to understand that some people have an agenda that is probably money related behind those cadets programs, there are no way you can have a reasonable argument with this people.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John S, do you have shares in Easyjet?
John S were you a cadet
John S can you put substantive proof to your statement that the problems are with ex TP or IE emb Legacy guys etc
John S can you categorically prove that cadets are a better trainee
What I do know is that your training department is geared up for lowest common denominator cadets and some experienced guys may feel like being taught how grandmother should suck eggs. The reality is as I see it it, more experienced guys would create a different training regime style suited to the demographic. End result is a competent and sop orientatated crew member, but with a greater experience to draw upon. If you think easy have reinvented the wheel, you are mistaken. Unless the wheel is how to get a legal product for less cash.
John S were you a cadet
John S can you put substantive proof to your statement that the problems are with ex TP or IE emb Legacy guys etc
John S can you categorically prove that cadets are a better trainee
What I do know is that your training department is geared up for lowest common denominator cadets and some experienced guys may feel like being taught how grandmother should suck eggs. The reality is as I see it it, more experienced guys would create a different training regime style suited to the demographic. End result is a competent and sop orientatated crew member, but with a greater experience to draw upon. If you think easy have reinvented the wheel, you are mistaken. Unless the wheel is how to get a legal product for less cash.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funny! I remember circa 2007 when easy took a large number of embraer 145 pilots as direct entry captains! Many are still there to my knowledge. The only problem an experienced pilot offers the likes of easy training department, is they ask a lot of questions, and are not afraid to say no! When the need may arise 
Cadets are ok, they may know how to operate the aircraft, but you can't teach experience!
Truth is they are cheap! The accountants love that, and when crewing shaft them they say yes please but no Vaseline for me!
You best cling to whatever job you can these days, as plenty of rich kids willing to work for nothing, waiting to take your place!
Cadets are ok, they may know how to operate the aircraft, but you can't teach experience!
Truth is they are cheap! The accountants love that, and when crewing shaft them they say yes please but no Vaseline for me!
You best cling to whatever job you can these days, as plenty of rich kids willing to work for nothing, waiting to take your place!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John S, shares and dividends?
The rumour mill in aviation is one of the best ever!
Agree a training department is obligeded to get people to the line, but easy has a very different candidate profile to BA for example. Would you like to compare the percentage of cadet pilot intake at easy to BA?
When in a training role it is important to embrace the quality and experience someone has to offer. If the majority have nothing to give other than the integ course then you have to plan on the lowest denominator.
So if an investment bank took on a graduate and an accomplished trader, would you disregard the experienced guys knowledge? Well you can't delete it so go for the one with no experience. And it's cheaper to boot. As I said, it's all about the money.
The rumour mill in aviation is one of the best ever!
Agree a training department is obligeded to get people to the line, but easy has a very different candidate profile to BA for example. Would you like to compare the percentage of cadet pilot intake at easy to BA?
When in a training role it is important to embrace the quality and experience someone has to offer. If the majority have nothing to give other than the integ course then you have to plan on the lowest denominator.
So if an investment bank took on a graduate and an accomplished trader, would you disregard the experienced guys knowledge? Well you can't delete it so go for the one with no experience. And it's cheaper to boot. As I said, it's all about the money.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you say big airlines often send their sponsored cadets to TP subs to gain experience. For good reason!!its interesting how locos turn over FOs for newbies who are willing to pay! But every so often they realise, oh crap no one to promote, then all of a sudden experienced guys are back in favour! Divide and conquer for the lowrst pay bill!!! Shame most people are to dumb or desperate to realise!
Having sacrificed everything and worked myself
To death to get into my current job/career! I fear I wasted my time and actively looking into an alternative career before its to late! That's the sadness of this industry! I cannot see it paying my mortgage for the next 30 years!!!
Having sacrificed everything and worked myself
To death to get into my current job/career! I fear I wasted my time and actively looking into an alternative career before its to late! That's the sadness of this industry! I cannot see it paying my mortgage for the next 30 years!!!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dark Side of The Moon
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentlemen,
I can only second the statement of john_smith in respect to our airline.
This has nothing to do with his or my opinion, neither of us says that we like this fact, but these are the facts.
I was trying to help understand what's going on in the industry and explain why our airline might not be hiring TP guys.
T&Cs are not the issue here - there are many experienced TP guys desperate to fly jet on any T&C (and of course complain endless after signing the contract) so how can this be related?
Anyway, looks like the factual information here is not appreciated, was just trying to give some inputs.
I can only second the statement of john_smith in respect to our airline.
This has nothing to do with his or my opinion, neither of us says that we like this fact, but these are the facts.
I was trying to help understand what's going on in the industry and explain why our airline might not be hiring TP guys.
T&Cs are not the issue here - there are many experienced TP guys desperate to fly jet on any T&C (and of course complain endless after signing the contract) so how can this be related?
Anyway, looks like the factual information here is not appreciated, was just trying to give some inputs.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have two friends at easy, and it seems that some trainers are sold on the cadet 100% for the reasons you said but there are others that that say that cadets are not better than an experienced DEP.
It's been said 1 million times before, cadets are part of the industry, always have and always will be. What has changed is the employers are skewing the terms and conditions of the pilot work force by flooding the industry with low hour guys by using the big training providers and a carrot of a jet job at the end.
If it wasn't about money then cadets would be straight in on full FO pay. If the big cadet taking low co companies employed experienced or a greater mix of pilots then the integ training providers and the post frozen atpl jet training providers wouldn't have the carrots in the same numbers and the gravy train comes off the rails.
Also, do the trainers at Orange have shares and receive dividends? If so, they have a vested interest in screwing over the new starts for their own profit.
If the companies were to be honest and say we are screwing you because we can, you know what, I can accept this. What I don't like is trying to wrap it up in coloured paper to make it look presentable when the bull**** is leaking through the seams.
Oh and easy seemed to do ok with there pilot workforce training before cadets, I'm guessing most of the more senior pilots weren't cadets. Also like in the workplace outside aviation, you have the same talk about graduate employment. Grads like to employ grads and I guess cadets will say they are the best also.
Rant over, off to the beach.
It's been said 1 million times before, cadets are part of the industry, always have and always will be. What has changed is the employers are skewing the terms and conditions of the pilot work force by flooding the industry with low hour guys by using the big training providers and a carrot of a jet job at the end.
If it wasn't about money then cadets would be straight in on full FO pay. If the big cadet taking low co companies employed experienced or a greater mix of pilots then the integ training providers and the post frozen atpl jet training providers wouldn't have the carrots in the same numbers and the gravy train comes off the rails.
Also, do the trainers at Orange have shares and receive dividends? If so, they have a vested interest in screwing over the new starts for their own profit.
If the companies were to be honest and say we are screwing you because we can, you know what, I can accept this. What I don't like is trying to wrap it up in coloured paper to make it look presentable when the bull**** is leaking through the seams.
Oh and easy seemed to do ok with there pilot workforce training before cadets, I'm guessing most of the more senior pilots weren't cadets. Also like in the workplace outside aviation, you have the same talk about graduate employment. Grads like to employ grads and I guess cadets will say they are the best also.
Rant over, off to the beach.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading these forums I still see there is a misconception about the meaning of "progression" or "advancement". What we`re really talking about here is a "sidestep".
When talking about careers & airline flying we`ve basically got 3 categories or industries, i.e
Regional / Short haul - Glass cockpit heavy Turboprops (ATR, DHC8),
Short Haul / Medium Haul - Regional / Medium sized turbofans (Emb/737/A320)
Long Haul - Heavy turbofans (747, A330)
The differences in actually flying between these categories are fairly small, it`s really only the operations that might change to some extent. They`re all pretty much fully automated these days, I still hear pilots mentioning "stick and rudder" skills on nextgen turboprops, another misconception. Those of us who have flown in multiple categories know that it`s all the same s**t.
Each category is potentially a career in itself, progression or advancement would be F/O, Capt, TRI / TRE, post holder for example. There are pros and cons to each category, I personally prefer the regional TP as the advantages really do outweigh the other categories but what the OP is talking about here is boredom which most of us suffer after a while flying any aircraft. This often means pilots want to make a sidestep to another category to try something different which can be difficult due to hiring policies. As mentioned previously long haul and medium turbofan pilots can find it just as difficult to sidestep into the TP industry so it works both ways. Every now and then doors open up between the categories due to supply and demand but often it means starting from the bottom again and joining cadets.
With the introduction of LCC`s and cadet schemes, the 737 and A320 have now become the main entry level aircraft for new pilots although some long haul operators take on cadets also. So for the OP, I would advise remaining in the TP category as you are potentially in a better position than starting at the bottom again. Changing to a better type or operator within the same category would be "advancing". I constantly see pilots making that sidestep and trying to run back after realising.
Of course there are exceptions to the above with regards to hiring policies, direct entry captains positions, airlines operating within multiple categories etc.
Of course there are a number of factors when considering a move within your category or making a sidestep but it boils down to the individual operator (RATE of pay, base, home every night etc).
When talking about careers & airline flying we`ve basically got 3 categories or industries, i.e
Regional / Short haul - Glass cockpit heavy Turboprops (ATR, DHC8),
Short Haul / Medium Haul - Regional / Medium sized turbofans (Emb/737/A320)
Long Haul - Heavy turbofans (747, A330)
The differences in actually flying between these categories are fairly small, it`s really only the operations that might change to some extent. They`re all pretty much fully automated these days, I still hear pilots mentioning "stick and rudder" skills on nextgen turboprops, another misconception. Those of us who have flown in multiple categories know that it`s all the same s**t.
Each category is potentially a career in itself, progression or advancement would be F/O, Capt, TRI / TRE, post holder for example. There are pros and cons to each category, I personally prefer the regional TP as the advantages really do outweigh the other categories but what the OP is talking about here is boredom which most of us suffer after a while flying any aircraft. This often means pilots want to make a sidestep to another category to try something different which can be difficult due to hiring policies. As mentioned previously long haul and medium turbofan pilots can find it just as difficult to sidestep into the TP industry so it works both ways. Every now and then doors open up between the categories due to supply and demand but often it means starting from the bottom again and joining cadets.
With the introduction of LCC`s and cadet schemes, the 737 and A320 have now become the main entry level aircraft for new pilots although some long haul operators take on cadets also. So for the OP, I would advise remaining in the TP category as you are potentially in a better position than starting at the bottom again. Changing to a better type or operator within the same category would be "advancing". I constantly see pilots making that sidestep and trying to run back after realising.
Of course there are exceptions to the above with regards to hiring policies, direct entry captains positions, airlines operating within multiple categories etc.
Of course there are a number of factors when considering a move within your category or making a sidestep but it boils down to the individual operator (RATE of pay, base, home every night etc).
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with John Smith post above. Our experience shows it is mostly ex-TP guys who struggling. The only category who is worse - guys with thousands of GA/bush hours - those are deemed untrainable and no longer passing initial CV screening.
ps we don't have cadets nor P2F.
ps we don't have cadets nor P2F.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: gashbag
Age: 52
Posts: 558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of the training department at airlines that use "cadets" ( i hate that word. Either you are a pilot, or you are not.) top up their pensions by working for the "training providers".
A cosy little arrangement that they won't want to give up.
A cosy little arrangement that they won't want to give up.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: asia
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The argument of cadets being cheaper for airlines is not true in my opinion. Why would an airline employ a cadet for his cpl, type rating, line training and pay the cadet a salary starting from day 1 in flying school, and once checked out as FO, paid the same salary in the same scale as a DEP. If cost is a factor, why not just employ DEP from TP and start paying only from type rating onwards, ok of cos I am not talking about P2F cadets here
Well, I can only speak from my experience. I flew four-engined TPs for 16 years and my first jet was the DC-10. I found the transition very easy and the DC-10 presented little challenge compared to my last TP (the Short Belfast) which I loved. Due to an outburst of company expansion I found myself in the left seat of the DC-10 in just over a year as an F/O and I never looked back after that.
I spent many years as a TRI/TRE on jet aircraft and trained low-hour cadets, high time TPs, ex-military (including FJs) and Uncle Tom Cobbly and All. All of the pilots from the various categories were usually successful. Those who were not were very few and far between and would probably have been better advised to have taken up a career growing mushrooms rather than approaching a flying machine.
With my hand on my heart, I really could not say that any particular group presented more of a challenge than the other. It is my opinion that it is all down to the talent of the individual.
I spent many years as a TRI/TRE on jet aircraft and trained low-hour cadets, high time TPs, ex-military (including FJs) and Uncle Tom Cobbly and All. All of the pilots from the various categories were usually successful. Those who were not were very few and far between and would probably have been better advised to have taken up a career growing mushrooms rather than approaching a flying machine.
With my hand on my heart, I really could not say that any particular group presented more of a challenge than the other. It is my opinion that it is all down to the talent of the individual.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TP to Jet
It seems that Cargolux are happy to look at TP pilots wanting to move onto jets, depends if you are happy to fly freight rather than passengers:
https://www.career.aero/site/en/job/show/id/1012
Flight Experience Option C:
• On a multi-pilot turbo-jet aeroplane certificated to the standards of CS-25 or equivalent airworthiness code or on a multi-pilot turbo-prop aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass of not less than 10 tonnes or a certificated passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, at least 500 hours flight time or 100 route sectors.
https://www.career.aero/site/en/job/show/id/1012
Flight Experience Option C:
• On a multi-pilot turbo-jet aeroplane certificated to the standards of CS-25 or equivalent airworthiness code or on a multi-pilot turbo-prop aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass of not less than 10 tonnes or a certificated passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, at least 500 hours flight time or 100 route sectors.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.K.
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did a couple of thousand hours flying the J31 TP before moving onto the B757 in 1994 .. to me it was very useful experience and formed part of a recognised career progression, then.
I think it is a great loss to the industry that this stepping stone seems to be lost, as it all comes under the heading of airborne experience .. which cannot be taught in the classroom. Flying TP's sometimes places different demands on the pilot, but any differences are easily overcome in a mature training environment .. and a good TP Captain/FO would make a good Jet Captain/FO in the fullness of time.
Having worked for many companies over the last 32 years, it is the variety of experience that makes up a balanced airline. No one background should be exclusive, and no other ignored ... Ex Military, cadet and TP all have their place, as they all bring something different to the table .. and that diverse background of experience should be treated as an asset. Having flown with all of the above extensively I would have no preference for any group ... more their professional attitude and relaxed demeanour individually.
If I were to start again, my Military experience would be less in demand as would my TP time .. I would also need much deeper pockets. From the smallest to largest aircraft, I have enjoyed and respected the bonding system, never having paid for a type rating ... this sadly does not seem part of the general model anymore, and I think that a shame. I know I have been lucky with timings and opportunities ...
In precis, there are good and bad from all backgrounds .. it is the variety that is needed ..
I think it is a great loss to the industry that this stepping stone seems to be lost, as it all comes under the heading of airborne experience .. which cannot be taught in the classroom. Flying TP's sometimes places different demands on the pilot, but any differences are easily overcome in a mature training environment .. and a good TP Captain/FO would make a good Jet Captain/FO in the fullness of time.
Having worked for many companies over the last 32 years, it is the variety of experience that makes up a balanced airline. No one background should be exclusive, and no other ignored ... Ex Military, cadet and TP all have their place, as they all bring something different to the table .. and that diverse background of experience should be treated as an asset. Having flown with all of the above extensively I would have no preference for any group ... more their professional attitude and relaxed demeanour individually.
If I were to start again, my Military experience would be less in demand as would my TP time .. I would also need much deeper pockets. From the smallest to largest aircraft, I have enjoyed and respected the bonding system, never having paid for a type rating ... this sadly does not seem part of the general model anymore, and I think that a shame. I know I have been lucky with timings and opportunities ...
In precis, there are good and bad from all backgrounds .. it is the variety that is needed ..
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Dublin
Age: 35
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to clarify
Easy do not have a 'cadet' scheme, they can call it what they want but having candidates pay 100k out of their own parents pockets and mortgaging the house does not make one a 'cadet', also they receive no pay during integrated training.
BA have a cadet scheme, and Lufthansa etc
The other difference is the highly competitive nature of those schemes generally mean the final candidates are the most capable, while easy or ryan's candidates are generally the ones with the deepest pockets.
And while Easy apparently seem troubled at the transition training of these 'difficult' ex TP guys the training departments of BA, Monarch, Jet2, FlyDubai, Emirates and Qatar are currently hiring ex Flybe Dash guys at a rate of 20 a month by current reports.
Just because a Trainer tells you something, does not make it true
BA have a cadet scheme, and Lufthansa etc
The other difference is the highly competitive nature of those schemes generally mean the final candidates are the most capable, while easy or ryan's candidates are generally the ones with the deepest pockets.
And while Easy apparently seem troubled at the transition training of these 'difficult' ex TP guys the training departments of BA, Monarch, Jet2, FlyDubai, Emirates and Qatar are currently hiring ex Flybe Dash guys at a rate of 20 a month by current reports.
Just because a Trainer tells you something, does not make it true