Airlines that have its pilots pay to fly
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BA Take a proportion of their intake as cadets. I understand the selection and screening procedures to be such that the attrition rate is very high. In a similar vein to the cadet schemes successfully run by Aer Lingus for decades both the BA and the Aer Lingus schemes have been the bedrock of these airlines recruitment for years. These are the cadet schemes that any right minded youngster should have on the top of their priority list
Lets not start to pretend that the loco en masse path of over paying and starting on reduced wages is the same. Its not.
Plus BA and Aer Lingus havent shoved droves of low hour guys into the mix on low pay. They tend to act with more responsibility with respect to the wider industry.
Lets not start to pretend that the loco en masse path of over paying and starting on reduced wages is the same. Its not.
Plus BA and Aer Lingus havent shoved droves of low hour guys into the mix on low pay. They tend to act with more responsibility with respect to the wider industry.
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Incorrect. My reply was to pt6 post regarding low hours pilots in the industry and the fact that BA took low you hours cadets.
For utter clarity I could have put "industry" in that sentence, but even then some one could have taken the super literal meaning that BA are in the industry, they are doing this as well.
Info find it highly amusing that the industry, terms and conditions and lifestyle of pilots are disappearing down the drain at Mach .95 and people want to have an argument about how a post is written.
Company CEOs if they read this will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Definition of Point of order
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For utter clarity I could have put "industry" in that sentence, but even then some one could have taken the super literal meaning that BA are in the industry, they are doing this as well.
Info find it highly amusing that the industry, terms and conditions and lifestyle of pilots are disappearing down the drain at Mach .95 and people want to have an argument about how a post is written.
Company CEOs if they read this will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Definition of Point of order
A point of order is a matter raised during consideration of a motion concerning the rules of parliamentary procedure.
In organizations other than legislative bodies, the ruling of the chair may be appealed to the assembly in most cases. Unless the chair's ruling is overturned by tie or majority vote in the negative, it stands. (The vote that is taken is a vote on whether or not to uphold the decision of the chair, so if the motion fails the decision is overturned.
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The cadet scheme run by many major airlines for decades has nothing to do with anything. These are people who pass many stages of rigorous selections, and are checked closely during all phases of training. They are not comparable at all to pay to fly, the same way as a 300 hrs pilot flying a Tornado isn't.
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D and F
Lets put this to bed
The context in which you put
Was immediately after the comments about ba, hence myself and others took this to mean ba was currently only recruiting cadets.
You have clarified that you meant the industry in general and barring a few good airlines I agree with you.
How a post is written has a big impact on what the reader understands you meant as opposed to what you meant, as we have all just re learned
Safe to say pt6, b,d and f are in agreement about p2f being undesirable to say the least. Regarding attitude agreed I have come across a number of new fo who firmly believe the threat is the captain! This being on day 1 released to the line
Lets put this to bed
The context in which you put
The current trend is to solely recruit cadets.
You have clarified that you meant the industry in general and barring a few good airlines I agree with you.
How a post is written has a big impact on what the reader understands you meant as opposed to what you meant, as we have all just re learned
Safe to say pt6, b,d and f are in agreement about p2f being undesirable to say the least. Regarding attitude agreed I have come across a number of new fo who firmly believe the threat is the captain! This being on day 1 released to the line
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Agreed.
My manner may have been taken as rude, but I am passionate about this industry and although I doubt PTF or airline aircraft type ratings will be a part of my remaining career, I don't want this industry to become a mediocre existence for my industry colleagues cabin or flight deck.
Low cost airline have saturated short haul and it is only a matter of time before they get longer range aspirations and companies such as BA have seen a reduction of profits on short haul which could and I believe will impact long.
Easy took the bmi Moscow slots, already do sharm and tel aviv. A321 would I guess give them access to the sort of range flights bmed did or even a330 without a huge training cost.
but I guess if you work for orange and have served your penance, then you may see this as a good thing.
My manner may have been taken as rude, but I am passionate about this industry and although I doubt PTF or airline aircraft type ratings will be a part of my remaining career, I don't want this industry to become a mediocre existence for my industry colleagues cabin or flight deck.
Low cost airline have saturated short haul and it is only a matter of time before they get longer range aspirations and companies such as BA have seen a reduction of profits on short haul which could and I believe will impact long.
Easy took the bmi Moscow slots, already do sharm and tel aviv. A321 would I guess give them access to the sort of range flights bmed did or even a330 without a huge training cost.
but I guess if you work for orange and have served your penance, then you may see this as a good thing.
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Why not we reverse the table and see the picture on the other side.
Airline used to sponsor pilots for the entire training in return hoping that they will stay and finish their contract and finish paying their bond.
But guess what and especially the expats/foreigners, once they have the hours and experience, grab their passport and leave the country and go back to thier own country or other airline.
Airlines end up losing millions and end up becoming a free scholarship training school for those who think the world owes them a job and everything should be free of charge.
So reverse role, imagine you are the boss of an airline, are you setting up an airline to make money or love burning cash just to train pilots who run away?
That is why it is less risky to hire local pilots and not get them upset for having foreigners stealing their jobs.
So who is the culprit for pay to fly? It's the senior pilot who are most of the time critical of p2f and could not care less those new CPL 200 hour pilots whether they get a job or not.
Who is there to protect the airline? Has to be a win win situation. Airline don't risk training fee training runaway pilots, while foreigners get hours and experience plus grabbing slots from locals.
But of course, there are huge success for those who got the hours/experience and are currently flying for major airlines in the world.
Airline used to sponsor pilots for the entire training in return hoping that they will stay and finish their contract and finish paying their bond.
But guess what and especially the expats/foreigners, once they have the hours and experience, grab their passport and leave the country and go back to thier own country or other airline.
Airlines end up losing millions and end up becoming a free scholarship training school for those who think the world owes them a job and everything should be free of charge.
So reverse role, imagine you are the boss of an airline, are you setting up an airline to make money or love burning cash just to train pilots who run away?
That is why it is less risky to hire local pilots and not get them upset for having foreigners stealing their jobs.
So who is the culprit for pay to fly? It's the senior pilot who are most of the time critical of p2f and could not care less those new CPL 200 hour pilots whether they get a job or not.
Who is there to protect the airline? Has to be a win win situation. Airline don't risk training fee training runaway pilots, while foreigners get hours and experience plus grabbing slots from locals.
But of course, there are huge success for those who got the hours/experience and are currently flying for major airlines in the world.
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Herb Kelleher did ok, lots of the pilots made a million also.
Treat em well and employ those who will be based where they want to be on good terms and conditions and I think you would see very few leave.
The bond system was fair and let's face it, Most airliner type ratings are not that expensive. A gulfstream G650 is $100000 apparently.
Corporate greed and mis management has caused most of these problems
I am sitting in a hotel surrounded by 12 MPL students from Lufthansa, all had their training paid for and even though there are no positions for them at the moment, they are being seconded to a partner airline while they wait. All nice guys and girls with solid educational backgrounds. Mostly engineering/science.
So it can be done properly if you take greed out of the equation.
Treat em well and employ those who will be based where they want to be on good terms and conditions and I think you would see very few leave.
The bond system was fair and let's face it, Most airliner type ratings are not that expensive. A gulfstream G650 is $100000 apparently.
Corporate greed and mis management has caused most of these problems
I am sitting in a hotel surrounded by 12 MPL students from Lufthansa, all had their training paid for and even though there are no positions for them at the moment, they are being seconded to a partner airline while they wait. All nice guys and girls with solid educational backgrounds. Mostly engineering/science.
So it can be done properly if you take greed out of the equation.
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Are there any other comparible industries where basic company introduction training costs are similar and where the trainee shoulders the costs: as bond or pay up front?
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Can't think of many off hand, however many parallels can be drawn against competitive motor racing - namely F1.
The similarities are huge. Genuine well respected drivers in the top teams making the big bucks, however, down the grid many drivers actually paying to drive! P2D! Huge private investment required to make it to the top level, many never make it. Sometimes (but not always) better drivers being pipped to the job by those with the ability to pay/bring sponsorship money to the team.
Sound familiar?
The similarities are huge. Genuine well respected drivers in the top teams making the big bucks, however, down the grid many drivers actually paying to drive! P2D! Huge private investment required to make it to the top level, many never make it. Sometimes (but not always) better drivers being pipped to the job by those with the ability to pay/bring sponsorship money to the team.
Sound familiar?
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P2F has nothing to do with replacing bonds.
Airlineexec companies that found expats leaving had quite often other reasons why pilots would leave "utopia".
European companies found that some pilots would renege on bonds. They therefore introduced upfront payments, which were REPAID over say 2 of 3 years. All the time the pilots would be on full time employment and paid a full salary. This is completely different to P2F schemes such as:
Getting v low hour pilots (including locals) to pay up front for a selection procedure, if successful to pay for the type rating and line training, with reduced salary for 6 months. At the end of which the pilot has 500 or less hours on type no job and is virtually unemployable! Oh and still has € 200, 000 debt after paying for initial training plus all the above.
Reducing the risk for airlines has changed into a revenue stream!
Airlineexec companies that found expats leaving had quite often other reasons why pilots would leave "utopia".
European companies found that some pilots would renege on bonds. They therefore introduced upfront payments, which were REPAID over say 2 of 3 years. All the time the pilots would be on full time employment and paid a full salary. This is completely different to P2F schemes such as:
Getting v low hour pilots (including locals) to pay up front for a selection procedure, if successful to pay for the type rating and line training, with reduced salary for 6 months. At the end of which the pilot has 500 or less hours on type no job and is virtually unemployable! Oh and still has € 200, 000 debt after paying for initial training plus all the above.
Reducing the risk for airlines has changed into a revenue stream!
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F1 doesn't really equate to flying, it's a sport with huge returns for the drivers if they make it and last time I watched, they weren't carrying fare paying passengers.
Also, many find rich sponsors who cough up for the prestigious paddock passes and thrill of being part of the team, although in reality they are just cash cows.
Also, as I understand, Easyjet don't pay dividends to the shareholders as the profits that are left after management have taken their huge bonuses and share options are put back into expansion. Stelios wanted div payments as I remember. So the management team seem to be the only ones sucking the profits if you disregard the share price, but as they say... Shares are a gamble and the price can go down as well as up. If for instance there was a big hull loss in any company and lawyers could pin it on recruitment, training or fatigue then you can imagine what would happen to the share price! And those responsible would have taken the cash, shares and pension contributions and move on. Again think Fred the Shread.
I guess we will have to see how it pans out.
Also, many find rich sponsors who cough up for the prestigious paddock passes and thrill of being part of the team, although in reality they are just cash cows.
Also, as I understand, Easyjet don't pay dividends to the shareholders as the profits that are left after management have taken their huge bonuses and share options are put back into expansion. Stelios wanted div payments as I remember. So the management team seem to be the only ones sucking the profits if you disregard the share price, but as they say... Shares are a gamble and the price can go down as well as up. If for instance there was a big hull loss in any company and lawyers could pin it on recruitment, training or fatigue then you can imagine what would happen to the share price! And those responsible would have taken the cash, shares and pension contributions and move on. Again think Fred the Shread.
I guess we will have to see how it pans out.
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I sorry if my info was out of date as I didn't check the date on the article but they started in 2010, I don't have or trade shares. I do forex.
Still any comments on the rest of the post? I guess we can now see how your bread is buttered from this and previous posts.
As for ignorance, well by definition as a lack of knowledge, we can all suffer that sometimes but if memory serves, your posts are about dumbing down the career and terms and profitability, then one catastrophic hull and passenger loss will teach you a lot about economics of airline shares if you do indeed hold them.
TBH I'm sitting in one of the major capitals in the world waiting for my table for dinner so I will have to catch up with your posts tomorrow to be utterly informed of the content.
Life's a beach )
Still any comments on the rest of the post? I guess we can now see how your bread is buttered from this and previous posts.
As for ignorance, well by definition as a lack of knowledge, we can all suffer that sometimes but if memory serves, your posts are about dumbing down the career and terms and profitability, then one catastrophic hull and passenger loss will teach you a lot about economics of airline shares if you do indeed hold them.
TBH I'm sitting in one of the major capitals in the world waiting for my table for dinner so I will have to catch up with your posts tomorrow to be utterly informed of the content.
Life's a beach )
Last edited by Deep and fast; 9th Feb 2015 at 14:55.
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Starfox
I think we are getting to the heart of the debate:
What constitutes P2F?
For example you say that paying for a type rating doesn't count. However I have a totally different view that unless you are repaid the cost of the type rating then it is P2F, or at least pay to gain employment.
I posted a list of aspects that could be considered examples of P2F, as yet no one else has commented on this.
Perhaps others would like to reiterate what they consider P2F?
I think we are getting to the heart of the debate:
What constitutes P2F?
For example you say that paying for a type rating doesn't count. However I have a totally different view that unless you are repaid the cost of the type rating then it is P2F, or at least pay to gain employment.
I posted a list of aspects that could be considered examples of P2F, as yet no one else has commented on this.
Perhaps others would like to reiterate what they consider P2F?
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Do train drivers pay for their type rating? Do HGV/coach drivers pay for their type ratings? Do oil tanker drivers pay for their type ratings? Did the Overspeed drivers pay for theirs? No idea, just asking. How did/do these industries deal with this aspect of employee training?If easyjet ask you to pay for an Airbus rating what happened to the B737 guys who had to change type within the company? Did they have to make a contribution? What do you think would happen if RYR bought B777, as rumoured? Would they ask for volunteers to move across and then charge them for the privilege?
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At the risk of being stoned to death! what's wrong with paying for your training? The scenario now is: You want to be a pilot, OK we screen your aptitude i.e reduce the risk of the no-hopers, here's the deal, you pay for the training, if you pass you get to fly one go our 65 Million pound jets, on the other hand, you can pay your training and buy your own jet!
Of course, I am not supporting the issue of getting no salary while flying, that is completely wrong, but during the " training phase" it is reasonable to have a reduced salary.
Training is continued assessment and guys can expect to be chopped at any stage if they don't make the grade. It is impossible for an airline to justify keeping marginal people flying at the risk to the public. Of course, some guys are slow learners but this is reflected in the accrued debt and the mind set " i've come this far I may as well continue". All this spouting that " proper companies" pay for everything " in my days".. let's move on and accept how it is. Take a long hard look at the " proper companies" and evaluate firstly how difficult it is to enter and how much the real cost of getting to their standard is. 10 Years ago Oxford students were paying almost 3 times as much as modular for the same CPL ticket, but then they could " fast track" to the majors..this was the real start of PTF at grass roots level. The likes of Eaglejet spurned a whole new avenue of progression for the marginal students and the rejects and this culture has prevailed ever since
Of course, I am not supporting the issue of getting no salary while flying, that is completely wrong, but during the " training phase" it is reasonable to have a reduced salary.
Training is continued assessment and guys can expect to be chopped at any stage if they don't make the grade. It is impossible for an airline to justify keeping marginal people flying at the risk to the public. Of course, some guys are slow learners but this is reflected in the accrued debt and the mind set " i've come this far I may as well continue". All this spouting that " proper companies" pay for everything " in my days".. let's move on and accept how it is. Take a long hard look at the " proper companies" and evaluate firstly how difficult it is to enter and how much the real cost of getting to their standard is. 10 Years ago Oxford students were paying almost 3 times as much as modular for the same CPL ticket, but then they could " fast track" to the majors..this was the real start of PTF at grass roots level. The likes of Eaglejet spurned a whole new avenue of progression for the marginal students and the rejects and this culture has prevailed ever since
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Avenger,
Come on Brian lets go to the stoning! Avenger you have been found guilty of blasphemy, no women here are there?
Paying for initial training up to FATPL has been here for many, many years and this will not change, I personally don't count this as P2F.
Once a pilot moves into an operation which is plainly commercial the customer should not have a pilot who is paying for the privilege of being there.
Therefore I would count reduced salary during training as a form of P2F. If the selection procedures have been rigorous enough then there is a big reduction of risk for the company and no need for this!.
Likewise paying for the type rating with no repayments (to reduce the risk of absconders) is a form of P2F.
Bamboo.
Interesting point about Europeans. America seems to have taken steps to prevent this. What is the situation for Chinese trainees, asia in general etc?
Chances of EASA doing anything that is not in the intrests of the airlines?
Come on Brian lets go to the stoning! Avenger you have been found guilty of blasphemy, no women here are there?
Paying for initial training up to FATPL has been here for many, many years and this will not change, I personally don't count this as P2F.
Once a pilot moves into an operation which is plainly commercial the customer should not have a pilot who is paying for the privilege of being there.
Therefore I would count reduced salary during training as a form of P2F. If the selection procedures have been rigorous enough then there is a big reduction of risk for the company and no need for this!.
Likewise paying for the type rating with no repayments (to reduce the risk of absconders) is a form of P2F.
Bamboo.
Interesting point about Europeans. America seems to have taken steps to prevent this. What is the situation for Chinese trainees, asia in general etc?
Chances of EASA doing anything that is not in the intrests of the airlines?