Airlines that have its pilots pay to fly
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 265
Likes: 164
From: Sunnydale
Because a) you don't have to if you can get a bank guarantee and b) you get the money back including interest (an addmitedly measly sum but so is all interest).
It's not ideal. For some it's a stepping stone, for some it's a way home and for others it's a way out of where they are now.
Personally unless necessity dictates otherwise I wouldn't go there. But I know several people who have and none of them have regretted it.
Although the real argument I wanted to make is if you're going to use figures to bolster your argument at least make sure they're accurate.
It's not ideal. For some it's a stepping stone, for some it's a way home and for others it's a way out of where they are now.
Personally unless necessity dictates otherwise I wouldn't go there. But I know several people who have and none of them have regretted it.
Although the real argument I wanted to make is if you're going to use figures to bolster your argument at least make sure they're accurate.
Last edited by back to Boeing; 7th June 2017 at 10:36.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 286
Likes: 1
From: N/A
Any payment after becoming qualified to work (ie CPL MEIR) should be considered as pay to fly.
You have done your part in getting qualified, just like a law student, a medical student or an engineering student. Though your bills were most likely much higher
You have done your part in getting qualified, just like a law student, a medical student or an engineering student. Though your bills were most likely much higher
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 4
From: last time I looked I was still here.
What happens with PSV & HGV non-rated cadets? They have a 'driving licence' but not the type. How's it for them? I'm not advocating paying up front; bonding, with full salary, seems reasonable. It's not easy to compare with other industries, e.g. train drivers, ships' captains etc. I suspect not many of us have knowledge of those industries.
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
From: UK
Still a lot of airlines, i.e. the flag carriers do pay for everything but the airline industry has changed so much since those days for e.g. it has become a lot affordable to travel, increase in airline numbers esp. lo-co, pilots, traffic, so on and so forth.
Perhaps, that has enabled the airlines to 'do whatever they like' i.e. charging for TR, line-training taking advantage of the number of unemployed low-houred pilots out there. They (airlines) have a greater bargaining power. #porters-5-forces
Sadly, this has become a norm and in my humble opinion is considered a shadow industry where revenue is generated through an exploitation. (Hope this doesn't sound very harsh).
Fair or not fair in comparing other industries isn't really relevant here because wether paying for TR or interview assessment is considered paying...? I.e. Does a HR personnel have to pay to get an interview at an airline?
Perhaps, that has enabled the airlines to 'do whatever they like' i.e. charging for TR, line-training taking advantage of the number of unemployed low-houred pilots out there. They (airlines) have a greater bargaining power. #porters-5-forces
Sadly, this has become a norm and in my humble opinion is considered a shadow industry where revenue is generated through an exploitation. (Hope this doesn't sound very harsh).
Fair or not fair in comparing other industries isn't really relevant here because wether paying for TR or interview assessment is considered paying...? I.e. Does a HR personnel have to pay to get an interview at an airline?
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 4
From: last time I looked I was still here.
Does a HR personnel have to pay to get an interview at an airline?
Very good point. Who else other than pilots have to pay to apply for a job? You pay and still might not be interviewed. How is it with cabin crew & engineers? What about ground/office staff, even managers?
Very good point. Who else other than pilots have to pay to apply for a job? You pay and still might not be interviewed. How is it with cabin crew & engineers? What about ground/office staff, even managers?
Joined: May 2004
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 965
Likes: 46
From: Ташкент
This has been going on for years.. recall a L-410 FO position at MAN(?) (on a 'N' reg) in the early to mid 90's you pay you fly.... this was the beginning....
EagleJet have been offering the 737 since the late 90's... and recently offered wide-body Captain positions for 50K+
It's one thing RHS P2F bad as it is.... but Widebody Captain? wtf.
Cabin crew scams are ten a penny as well. Engineers... no... too much of a shortage (and not as glamorous).
EagleJet have been offering the 737 since the late 90's... and recently offered wide-body Captain positions for 50K+
It's one thing RHS P2F bad as it is.... but Widebody Captain? wtf.
Edit.
How is it with cabin crew & engineers?
How is it with cabin crew & engineers?
Joined: Sep 2025
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 27
Likes: 25
From: Birmimgham
I know this is an old thread but I’ve been debating some of these questions recently and viewing the overlap between employment law and aviation regulations and struggling to see how airlines are able to legally charge for Type Ratings that include the non-delegable OCC components and are run to company SOPs! It seems very much like cost shifting, disguised employment and debt bondage to me.
I also noted the mention of safety throughout the thread and thought this recent article in the guardian may be of interest if any one revisits this thread.
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2...es-study-warns
One has to ask how safe is it for a pilot who is in masses of debt to be expected to call fatigued when required even though they know their pay will be heavily deducted on a disguised 0 hour Line Training Contract.
I also noted the mention of safety throughout the thread and thought this recent article in the guardian may be of interest if any one revisits this thread.
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2...es-study-warns
One has to ask how safe is it for a pilot who is in masses of debt to be expected to call fatigued when required even though they know their pay will be heavily deducted on a disguised 0 hour Line Training Contract.
Joined: Apr 2012
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 389
Likes: 134
From: N/A
Why is nobody asking how is it possible that a 13 hours fdp is legal?
That's the core issue of fatigue, laughable FTLs.
Why can I legally fly an aircraft 18 hours after waking up?
Why is the daily limit only on FDP and not on total duty?
Why can we legally work 60 hours in 5 consecutive days?
Why is split duty even a thing?
Why (in my country) an office worker can't work more than 10 hours (so 8+2 overtime), but I can be rostered a 13 hours fdp (even more, in some circumstances)?
That's the core issue of fatigue, laughable FTLs.
Why can I legally fly an aircraft 18 hours after waking up?
Why is the daily limit only on FDP and not on total duty?
Why can we legally work 60 hours in 5 consecutive days?
Why is split duty even a thing?
Why (in my country) an office worker can't work more than 10 hours (so 8+2 overtime), but I can be rostered a 13 hours fdp (even more, in some circumstances)?
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 37
Likes: 10
From: UK
Let's say a certain airline I know that was bonding people illegally in a certain EU state, did it purely as a paper exercise. It was completely illegal. If you are in that company for at least a few months the word would have reached you that people still leave, and no one chases them for the money. Effectively it was an illegal practice (is it illegal if it is not enforced?), that was never enforced. A lot of people were still scared to leave regardless, so in a way it did work for that airline. The so called bonding is a piece of paper a person would have been forced to sign at a joining date in a form of IOU. I can't remember the exact wording, but it was very simply written on one side of A4 paper.
Joined: Sep 2025
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 27
Likes: 25
From: Birmimgham
Why is nobody asking how is it possible that a 13 hours fdp is legal?
That's the core issue of fatigue, laughable FTLs.
Why can I legally fly an aircraft 18 hours after waking up?
Why is the daily limit only on FDP and not on total duty?
Why can we legally work 60 hours in 5 consecutive days?
Why is split duty even a thing?
Why (in my country) an office worker can't work more than 10 hours (so 8+2 overtime), but I can be rostered a 13 hours fdp (even more, in some circumstances)?
That's the core issue of fatigue, laughable FTLs.
Why can I legally fly an aircraft 18 hours after waking up?
Why is the daily limit only on FDP and not on total duty?
Why can we legally work 60 hours in 5 consecutive days?
Why is split duty even a thing?
Why (in my country) an office worker can't work more than 10 hours (so 8+2 overtime), but I can be rostered a 13 hours fdp (even more, in some circumstances)?
Ive seen group chats from a large carrier where they’re expecting / resulting in regular 18+ hours when you look at the duties they’re assigning people and account for the parts they like to omit.
With respect to pay to fly though and the whole safety question I’d like to put this to everyone.
Let’s assume you’re a new entry pilot 60-100k in debt or paid out already in licensing. A large part of the industry has pivoted it seems to the yellow and blue model of charging for large aircraft type ratings… these type ratings are 30k and coincidentally include the OCC a non-delegable provision of the operator rendering them airline specific… you’ve paid for and are unpaid during this period… amounting more debt. You are then given a contract to operate for the airline as crew for your lifus and beyond… crew definition being indistinguishable from the tests for direct employment you are paid a paltry fee that barely covers living costs, during this time the company also reserves the right to claw back money should you report sick/fatigued. You’re safety pilot released… you’re likely fatigued as they’re running you a new entry onto the line at FTL maximums while you’re still in LIFUS… and you literally can’t afford to call fatigued due to the clear debt bondage and fear of reprisals.
… how is that anything but a safety issue?
Let’s then consider your safety pilot released and the line training captain becomes incapacitated. You’re effectively paying to be there… scared to call fatigued, inordinate stress from debt as you continue to learn your trade… under significant cognitive load in a fast paced environment you have to then ensure the safety of 180+ pax and yourself.
The European system has been corrupted and it’s insidious and even if it doesn’t result in the worst scenario of an accident… what is it doing to the individual people involved is abhorrent.
it cannot be remotely compliant with the overlap between aviation, employment, labour, consumer and even contract law, which tells us regulators are s**ting the bed. As much as I abhor the cost of train tickets… you don’t see train drivers even close to accruing debt to transport passengers and isn’t safety and just culture supposed to be the absolute pinnacle.
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 575
Likes: 431
From: Outbush
Ive seen group chats from a large carrier where they’re expecting / resulting in regular 18+ hours when you look at the duties they’re assigning people and account for the parts they like to omit.
With respect to pay to fly though and the whole safety question I’d like to put this to everyone.
Let’s assume you’re a new entry pilot 60-100k in debt or paid out already in licensing. A large part of the industry has pivoted it seems to the yellow and blue model of charging for large aircraft type ratings… these type ratings are 30k and coincidentally include the OCC a non-delegable provision of the operator rendering them airline specific… you’ve paid for and are unpaid during this period… amounting more debt. You are then given a contract to operate for the airline as crew for your lifus and beyond… crew definition being indistinguishable from the tests for direct employment you are paid a paltry fee that barely covers living costs, during this time the company also reserves the right to claw back money should you report sick/fatigued. You’re safety pilot released… you’re likely fatigued as they’re running you a new entry onto the line at FTL maximums while you’re still in LIFUS… and you literally can’t afford to call fatigued due to the clear debt bondage and fear of reprisals.
… how is that anything but a safety issue?
Let’s then consider your safety pilot released and the line training captain becomes incapacitated. You’re effectively paying to be there… scared to call fatigued, inordinate stress from debt as you continue to learn your trade… under significant cognitive load in a fast paced environment you have to then ensure the safety of 180+ pax and yourself.
The European system has been corrupted and it’s insidious and even if it doesn’t result in the worst scenario of an accident… what is it doing to the individual people involved is abhorrent.
it cannot be remotely compliant with the overlap between aviation, employment, labour, consumer and even contract law, which tells us regulators are s**ting the bed. As much as I abhor the cost of train tickets… you don’t see train drivers even close to accruing debt to transport passengers and isn’t safety and just culture supposed to be the absolute pinnacle.
With respect to pay to fly though and the whole safety question I’d like to put this to everyone.
Let’s assume you’re a new entry pilot 60-100k in debt or paid out already in licensing. A large part of the industry has pivoted it seems to the yellow and blue model of charging for large aircraft type ratings… these type ratings are 30k and coincidentally include the OCC a non-delegable provision of the operator rendering them airline specific… you’ve paid for and are unpaid during this period… amounting more debt. You are then given a contract to operate for the airline as crew for your lifus and beyond… crew definition being indistinguishable from the tests for direct employment you are paid a paltry fee that barely covers living costs, during this time the company also reserves the right to claw back money should you report sick/fatigued. You’re safety pilot released… you’re likely fatigued as they’re running you a new entry onto the line at FTL maximums while you’re still in LIFUS… and you literally can’t afford to call fatigued due to the clear debt bondage and fear of reprisals.
… how is that anything but a safety issue?
Let’s then consider your safety pilot released and the line training captain becomes incapacitated. You’re effectively paying to be there… scared to call fatigued, inordinate stress from debt as you continue to learn your trade… under significant cognitive load in a fast paced environment you have to then ensure the safety of 180+ pax and yourself.
The European system has been corrupted and it’s insidious and even if it doesn’t result in the worst scenario of an accident… what is it doing to the individual people involved is abhorrent.
it cannot be remotely compliant with the overlap between aviation, employment, labour, consumer and even contract law, which tells us regulators are s**ting the bed. As much as I abhor the cost of train tickets… you don’t see train drivers even close to accruing debt to transport passengers and isn’t safety and just culture supposed to be the absolute pinnacle.
Many people have answered your questions, but you don’t seem to want to listen. You must be a nightmare on the flight deck.
Joined: Sep 2025
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 27
Likes: 25
From: Birmimgham
I’ve never had a problem on the flight deck, I can’t imagine you’re much of a conversationalist in person you just like to try and shut discussion down with platitudes. Now feel free to toddle off and don’t let me interrupt you servicing that low cost carrier ceo cock you clearly like to caress. 👍
Oh and I can only assume seeing as this thread was pretty dusty you sought me out for a cheap uniformed shot. My god you must have a lot of time 😂.
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 52
Likes: 10
From: Manchester
Dude, chill. He’s just explaining how broken the pay to fly setup actually is. He’s not ranting — he’s laying out a genuine safety and ethics issue. Maybe try engaging with the point rather than shooting the messenger.
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 575
Likes: 431
From: Outbush
I think that we all recognise that pay to fly is BS, but it’s not something for the regulator. It’s for the unions.
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 575
Likes: 431
From: Outbush
Stating something doesn’t make it true. You seem very keen to close down arguments without anything of actual substance. I point to observed reality and the overlap of law … you point to the normalisation of something that I am suggesting should be illegal and regulated… I was looking for a debate… odd that on a forum. Got a vested interest that wants you to stop this conversation? I don’t see any other career front loading young people with debt to this extent… you seem to like that. Strange.
I’ve never had a problem on the flight deck, I can’t imagine you’re much of a conversationalist in person you just like to try and shut discussion down with platitudes. Now feel free to toddle off and don’t let me interrupt you servicing that low cost carrier ceo cock you clearly like to caress. 👍
Oh and I can only assume seeing as this thread was pretty dusty you sought me out for a cheap uniformed shot. My god you must have a lot of time 😂.
I’ve never had a problem on the flight deck, I can’t imagine you’re much of a conversationalist in person you just like to try and shut discussion down with platitudes. Now feel free to toddle off and don’t let me interrupt you servicing that low cost carrier ceo cock you clearly like to caress. 👍
Oh and I can only assume seeing as this thread was pretty dusty you sought me out for a cheap uniformed shot. My god you must have a lot of time 😂.
So no vested interest, just curious why you are trying to reinvent your old argument on a different forum.
Whats very interesting is that instead of a robust response, you have resorted to vulgar schoolboy insults. Well done.
Good luck getting a real job in a 2 crew environment champ.
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 52
Likes: 10
From: Manchester
Unions are meant to be the backstop when regulators fail and to set better Ts&Cs … pay to fly isn’t a T&C is exploitation and now we’re in a scenario where all sides are failing — and everyone’s just passing the buck.
This guy is making that point and you’re shooting him down for it as if other opinions have no validity… I can’t excuse his joke but I can understand his frustration.