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Norwegian lays off 60 pilots

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Norwegian lays off 60 pilots

Old 15th Nov 2014, 22:51
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When we stop accepting it. it's not the companies at fault here, if I ran a loco airline I would do exactly the same, in fact I'd be more ruthless and not pay any salaries, just offer experience. I'd still crew my aeroplanes. Sad but true.

When folk stop training because the jobs just aren't there, things will improve. What goes around etc....
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 11:11
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I do genuinely feel sorry for those let go, I have been there and yes it was just before Christmas also.

When will this chuffing industry pick up and get more compassion and an improvement in terms and conditions?



Poor puppy... When will those nasty vilains be nice again ?...

Don't you understand the course of history depends on you and not on how nice "the nasty bosses can be" ???

Just wake up ! You feel sorry... You're next in line, boy. And since you haven't fought for those chaps you feel sorry for, your management will feel rewarded and free to act so again and again. This time on YOU. And other people will feel sorry for you being led to the slaughterhouse. First they came for the...

Managers make decisions within boundaries that are given to them by the market, by their bank, by society, by their employees, by their board, etc... If you let their boundaries expand until they reach the troposphere, then they'll use that extra-space. If you don't let them do it, then they'll have to manage their business within more restrictive boundaries. Don't feel sorry for them after having felt sorry for those furloughed. Just defend yourself and bite, for Christ's sake !

I can't believe what I'm reading here.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 11:24
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I might be totally wrong but I think I am beginning to detect just the slightest whiff of hysteria creeping into this thread.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 11:57
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Oh no, nothing to be histeric about, JW. Only 60 people being shown the door and the rest hiding out in fear of being part of the pack, in a growing profit-making company.

Because of people like you, JW, europeans pilots are where they are now : never reacting, never getting angry, not the slightest glimpse of hysteria. Just a bunch of quiet puppies.

When will you get [email protected] ? Acting gentlemen will serve nobody's cause.
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 13:56
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Unfortunately things are only going to get worse especially with all the mummy's boys cadets being hired across Europe most of who have never had a proper job before or belonged to a trade union and never been part of collective bargaining who will pay to fly as a hobby
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Old 16th Nov 2014, 14:42
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fRying, I said what I said because I have compassion which is a natural human trait. This is something FR probably removed from your soul!
Actually, my situation was completely different and I am longer involved with the airlines and their sharp employment practices.

Flying, if you can't take a joke, don't join.
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 09:22
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Angry Up the Workers

I am in total agreement with FRying & DooblerChina. This isn't about emotions nor even hysteria: this is about the continuing decline of value of the airline pilot & it is us, the pilots, who have ourselves to blame, simple as that. Looking from the outside it seems to me that Norwegian were over recruiting pilots as some kind of publicity stunt, demonstrating their over zealous expansion & broadcasting it to the world. They didn't give two hoots about the lives or even careers that they were messing with, never gave it a second thought.

I was a captain with Ryanair & I would continually hear the moaning & groaning from the 'cadets' about how crap life was at FR, low pay, lousy roster, nasty management, etc., etc. (And it was & still is.) They were all going to build their time & then leave & here I would ask the question, "where are you going to go to?" All of the airlines have continually lowered their Ts & Cs & there are now no places left that offer anything like the conditions that we all took for granted back in the eighties & nineties. Now, if those same people: the Ryanair, Jet2, NAS pilots told the likes of O'Leary, Meeson, Kjos, et al, to shove it & walked out, within a day all of our professional lives would improve.

Where are many of the Ryanair boys going? To Norwegian which offers some of the lowest pay in the industry: you won't find a lower salary for a 787 driver in the world. So now you have built up your wide body time on the 787, again, where will you go? All of the other carriers have seen that we are prepared to work for peanuts & will consequently lower their Ts & Cs, simple economics in a capitalist market place.

Until we, the pilots, stand up for ourselves, refuse the that we are constantly fed, then we can expect, & as a group deserve, nothing more.
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 11:11
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Yes, if the pilots only could stand up together and tell the bastards to shove it… Well, the NAS pilots had a great opportunity to do just that back in May 2012. Their union leaders rallied around and got an overwhelming support from a lot of other European unions, as well as some cabin crew, ground crew, fueling services etc. It looked as if the big wave was about to hit the shore, but the union folded and accepted somewhat of a flimsy agreement some that they (on normal T&Cs, not contract T&Cs) would get further job security. Next year at the negotiating table, guess what happened… Almost another strike (it`s always almost… BK is a lawyer and pushes it as far as he can, then "gives" a bit so it may look like the union has accomplished something), but management and union agreed upon agreeing upon already negotiated collective agreements. Pensions and such nasty little things… It`s not getting any better, and people keep selling themselves short just to get a foot in the door, and get the boot out the backdoor.
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 14:07
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Time for a new union that serves pilots and their interests not those of threatening management.

Balpa is a self serving beast that is trying to play politics not union representation as required by the pilots. A union without teeth can't bite, it just sucks!
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 16:51
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Yep, and we know what it sucks (or kisses)

Sad fact is, when Unions are willing to accept loosely worded agreements, with liberal use of terms such as "should"/ "may be" / "will endeavour to " , particularly when the guy on the opposite side of the table is a solicitor, it does leave one wondering if the word collusion is applicable.

In my time in BM (BMI for you younger uns) BALPA was another level of management (in waiting) where most of the Reps were just biding their time & buying pints in the lodge whilst waiting to move sides.

I doubt if there is quite that level of treachery in NAS, but it does appear the "agreements" could be more watertight.

The main problem remains though, that a solicitor knows that he can sign something, subsequently disregard it, and enjoy the benefits accrued for quite a number of years before the inevitable court case/appeal etc . . . much like that affable Irish bloke running the other mob.
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Old 17th Nov 2014, 18:32
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Has anyone heard a squeak out of ECA? The cool breeze from Dublin drifted eastwards on the wind over EU and slipped gently southwards even into warmer climes. Others saw the signs and followed suit. Is it that a cold arctic blast is about to descend and sweep southwards across the cosy plains of southern regions? ECA's silence might be jolted into action. Even the strong nationals are feeling the effect of the cool winds and the crews there will have very different career futures to their predecessors. Their in-house unions will be of reduced effectiveness under the threat from share holders who see what is possible from competitors. I think ECA and its constituent parts will find themselves running up a down-escalator and slowly running out of steam and not ascending, but drifting downwards. I doubt the crew shortage (pilots/cabin staff/engineers) will be severe enough to reverse the trend of the past 15 years. Ever since privatisation of the majors the writing has been on the wall, but too many a blind eye was buried in the sand. A juicy backside was presented to management and it was duly shafted.

If you think this is fantasy, then think on the edges. How long ago, and who was it that introduced baggage charges? How many others followed when pax numbers did not fall? How long ago and who was it that introduced check-in charges, and credit card charges, and administration charges, and weight limits with exorbitant excess baggage charges, and print your own boarding passes and …and….and. Now even the likes of KLM and other ex-majors have followed suit; more gently, but still in the same manner. We now think the the norm to pay for baggage, check-in/admin, print our own boarding cards etc. We now expect the ticket price to be way less than before. It won't be long before the free bar disappears on the majors. All tat has happened and conditioned the pax way of thinking in only 10 years. So please don't think the T's & C's are not going to suffer the same fate. Eventually the market forces may have an effect, but not for a very long time.
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Old 18th Nov 2014, 19:43
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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X-centric
They were all going to build their time & then leave & here I would ask the question, "where are you going to go to?" All of the airlines have continually lowered their Ts & Cs & there are now no places left that offer anything like the conditions that we all took for granted back in the eighties & nineties.
X-centric, that's exactly I ask myself everyday to be honest.
Im in a LCC in asia, and this question regularly comes in my mind.
No need to be at FR to ask this same lol
That's why I am doing a business on side and study online. Then I will leave the industry if nothing better comes.
As you said even majors lower...Like many expat I could go to Dubai but, that's not for me and I am sure of it. Leaving asia for Dubai, I do not see it as an improvement in my life, except for the money only (but i don't care that much).
What else, oh europe ? where ? EZ ? same thing : leaving a LCC to go to another LCC, I don't see it as a climb on the ladder. It's just a horizontal movement. Not really vertical.

anyway you raised a very good point.

ah and of course standing up it's a nice idea, but as expat, you do that and in the second youre fired...
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Old 25th Nov 2014, 08:23
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FRing, Rat5, X-centric, totally agree. We are still in a race to the bottom.
Olearys stated aim is to give tickets away for free (making all the money on the extras) and where is it easiest to cut costs to pay for that? From the T&Cs of the workforce.
The other airlines are following suit, not just because of market forces, but because they have found they can.
BALPA seems powerless/disinterested in taking a stand because it probably hurts their long term political goals whatever they may be, and besides we will only get real action from them when BA T&Cs are threatened. (Veuling?)
Too many union company reps are looking out for their own advancement (happened already in my company) and the pilot work force are just too ready to accept the managements word for it that "times are tough" because they've got school fees, alimony, credit cards and overstretched themselves on mortgages, to stand up to the T&Cs onslaught and need a steady income no matter how low.
I don't see an improving future for pilots in Europe in the next 20 years unless we actually stand up and fight for it.
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Old 25th Nov 2014, 23:46
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Unhappy

Yes, Fly By Wire, all true. I've worked for the same airline for nine years now. In that time I've seen the Ts & Cs eroded to such a degree that it is unrecognizable from the company I joined. Our pay has reduced in real terms by 28%. We used to stay in great hotels downtown now, without exception, they are all three star airport layovers. Speaking of layovers, they have removed so many by operating a 'heavy crew' system (with us that's just three pilots) & scheduling two leg flights: e.g. LAX-SFO-NRT or AMS-MXP-NRT: 17 - 18 hour duties traversing time zones & even the international dateline. We have had the annual CPI pay increase removed from our contracts. If you call in with fatigue expect to face a disciplinary. The crew food is slop that honestly wouldn't be allowed in a prison; they have even removed the disposable, paper toilet seat protectors to save money!

Want to leave then hey, "You fly the B747, we operate the 777 or 787 or 737 & we're not going to pay for your conversion course!" Or, "You fly heavy jets it's totally different from single aisle flying, close the door on your way out!" If I could get out of this once proud &, yes, glamorous industry & still meet my mortgage payments & school fees I'd be gone tomorrow. Sadly, that's the view of nearly all of my colleagues. And who do I fly for? Not a LCC, not in Europe but a Japanese airline who was once the bastion of great Ts & Cs. This is the point of my previous post: when all the guys who are willingly accepting the crap at the bottom want to move up there is going to be nowhere for them to go any longer.

Apologies for the thread creep.
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Old 27th Nov 2014, 23:06
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x-centric,

Bit rich to be blaming the guys at the bottom for accepting crap Ts and Cs when, by your own admission, your own Ts and Cs have fallen through the floor yet you still turn up to work at an increased profit margin for the company. Pilots have a great tendency to point the finger at anyone but themselves when it comes to bemoaning the decline of the industry.
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Old 28th Nov 2014, 05:42
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Actually Adolf, I believe X is right. The new generation accepting lower T&Cs(and even paying for their jobs) just to get a ten year jump career wise ahead of their mates in the industry, has enabled even the higher end companies to offer (and in some cases reduce their present) lower packages.

X would have no choice but to continue working for his company even though they refused to increase salaries in accordance with inflationary pressure. Had he threatened to change companies, he would have been shown the door with a smile as the accountant would happily accept his resignation knowing full well that he could be replaced with some-one who would work for less

This has helped to create the terms, conditions and 'respect' that aircrew receive in general from airline management.

He has it spot on by saying that when the new generation try to move up to the 'better' paying airlines, there will be nowhere to move to. Their( the new generation) sense of entitlement has bitten us all on the butt.
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Old 28th Nov 2014, 07:59
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It can't be too far ahead that it becomes economically unviable to aspire to be an airline pilot. The cost of training (approx £90,000) to get a low paid second officer postion, and in some cases Flexi crew contracts (only paid a basic wage when you actually work) makes the job of today's pilot almost slave labour.
The introduction of MPL courses which basically trains applicants to be computer operators rather than giving them a basic grounding in flying skills and airmanship, which in my opinion is a trade off of profits over safety.
As an example of this the MPL pilots are brilliant at controlling the aircraft through the automatics (autopilot & auto thrust), and handling ECAM, but it all starts to go a bit wrong once the autopilot is out and they actually have to fly the aircraft to land it.
That comes with experience and plenty of landings, but until then, as a line Captain you are effectively in a training role until they gain that experience.

So I wonder how many youngsters out there can actually afford to front up that kind of money to, in effect, not be trained as a pilot. Surely the realities of the job for new aspire-ees is plain to see once they start to look, and dispels any perceived glamour of being a pilot. But the new guys I fly with tell me there's still a queue out the door at training establishments which I can't fathom. There are much better paid jobs out there and the respect for pilots has been effectively killed by ignorant management and accountants to drive costs down.

Maybe BALPA should do more to advise aspiring pilots about the realities of the job? But then that would mean less pilots, which would mean less subs paying union members.......Hmmmm.
Is it easier to accept more members paying less in fees (because they are so low paid) or to stem the flow of cheap pilots for companies, increase terms and conditions for the rest, and accept a higher % from them. Interesting question.

The plague of the Low cost companies has turned the industry from just very competative back in the day, to ultra ultra cut throat today. That is having an ever increasing effect on safety margins, and I wonder where it will all end?
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Old 28th Nov 2014, 08:35
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Fly by wire

You say: "That is having an ever increasing effect on safety margins, and I wonder where it will all end?"

I am not saying I necessarily disagree, but where is your proof of this?

I haven't seen many (indeed any) instances of your assertion in the public domain.

The fact is that modern A320/B737 aircraft are generally very reliable, and hence, safe. That is why MPL is possible. The statistics show it to be safe, therefore regulators and insurers are prepared to take the "risk" - whatever that may be.
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Old 28th Nov 2014, 08:57
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Colgan Air 3407 - tired lowly paid pilots.
Air France 447 - junior pilot incorrectly flying the aircraft in an emergency situation.

Your right, modern new aircraft don't often go wrong. (That's what management and the accountants hang their hat on to reduce T&Cs) But when they do, you need highly trained experienced pilots to fly them. Eg Flight 1549 & Capt Sullenberger.

And you know the old phrase about statistics..... ;-)
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Old 28th Nov 2014, 10:13
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FBW,

Statistics, yes I know what you mean.

However, there is solid proof that in AF447, whilst the junior co-pilot was at the controls, the Senior co-pilot who was in relief command did absolutely nothing to resolve the situation. The captain was in the bunk having taken his girlfriend out in Brazil the night before. Not exactly inexperience causing the crash entirely, I would suggest....

Colgan: Again, factors outside inexperience. Commuting pre duty, fixation on matters other than flying the aircraft, fatigue.... all there, but not inexperience. The captain had plenty of hours (albeit with a "patchy" record in check rides I believe) and the co-pilot was also in line for command, but as we know, she wouldn't move from the west coast for a command in Newark, NJ. It is all on the tapes....

So, I wouldn't say that pilot inexperience caused these accidents. I would agree though, that the cost cutting culture that exists now, did play a major role.
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