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£110k+ EZY MPL scheme

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£110k+ EZY MPL scheme

Old 22nd Oct 2014, 12:33
  #121 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 55
4468. I am of course familiar with AF447. You know as well as I do that with the myriad of factors involved it can't be used to argue for or against MPL flying. The copilot at the controls was also a glider pilot - can't get much more familiar with the flight envelope than that can you?

Regardless, it still falls into what I called the rarest of circumstances (and is still trained for anyhow).The far more likely life-threatening problem an airline pilot is going to encounter is a medical emergency, fuel emergency, smoke or fire, a defect that requires correct management etc etc. In those circumstances, good CRM through airline flying experience is much more likely to help you than watching 17 year olds fly around at 2000ft, in my opinion.

I will reiterate, I DO think instructor experience is valuable, but I do not think it is irreplaceable.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 13:03
  #122 (permalink)  
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Nearly 40 per cent of all fatal accidents involved some kind of loss of control, making this the most frequent type of accident.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 13:36
  #123 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Thank you. That's pretty much what I thought.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 17:14
  #124 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Don't know where you got your info from, but it's only 25 years since I left the World's finest Air Force!
I had no idea that you were American.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 17:40
  #125 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 680
You're absolutely correct. I should have phrased it better.

I should have said: The World's finest, and the World's FIRST independent Air Force. That would have been more accurate.


Edited to add:

The Royal Air Force was formed on 1st Apr 1918. The US Air Force was formed on 18th Sep 1947.

Incidentally, this is why it is never necessary to refer to it as the 'British' Royal Air Force, as one might refer to the Royal Canadian/Australian/New Zealand etc Air Forces.

It is simply THE Royal Air Force! Because that's what it is.

It's what it says on the tin.

Last edited by 4468; 22nd Oct 2014 at 22:28.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 17:56
  #126 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2013
Location: UK
Age: 51
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is this anything like the multi million pound global business that is Formula One?

Good drivers get paid millions, to drive the front running cars. Rich kids pay millions to drive the slower ones.

It's worrying for the passengers in the back to know one of the passengers paid a lot more for his ticket, and gets to fly the rest of us
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 19:56
  #127 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
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I think it's testament to the quality of simulators these days that much of the training can actually be done in one. I'd be surprised if a lack of "real" flying in light aircraft compared with pretend flying in a full motion simulator made a great deal of difference to the end product. I don't think you need to worry Interested Passenger.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 21:28
  #128 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Simulators have a "pause button". That is the difference.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 22:26
  #129 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 680
Hey G-FORC3.

How many people have died in a simulator? That can focus the senses!

I think Interested Passenger makes a valid point.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 23:12
  #130 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2012
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The pilots involved in AF447 seemed to have a problem with managing the situation using basic pitch and power so between them some airmanship was missing.

Forget C152 circuit flying as an instructor, the industry has a major bias against anything thats not Jet and the right type. Light and heavy multi turboprop time is completely disregarded now. There are just no ways to progress. 3000 hours turboprop is worth less than an MPL or 150 hours integrated and some people are creating arguments justifying it - such as clean sheet, easier to train with no bad habits etc. However, to be a Captain you do need the experience - afterall someone has to know what they are doing!
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 08:37
  #131 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Spent close to 2000 hrs instructing (VFR and IFR) before joining the jet fleet. If it wasn't for that I might not have passed the sim? A raw data ILS during the TR wasn't a big thing, because whether I was flying SEP or fast jet my scan was significantly faster than my friends' who came straight from school. I attribute this mostly to the IFR instructing I did though.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 08:47
  #132 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 71
The experience of the CTC/MPL product with regard to operating and flying the A320 series does not concern me. easyJet have a very good, some might say superb, training department. The command training is exhaustive and the airlines SOP's generally cater for the lowest common experience level.

Where I have my concerns lies outside the scope of button pushing and operational decision making. I think this product (CTC/MPL)will be loath to do the right thing when it comes to issues like the application of commanders discretion. I believe the limited experience of other aspects of flying will allow the company to exert commercial pressure to influence decision making especially in the MPL case.

After all most of the truly spectacular I made were flying outside the airline environment without prescriptive SOP's to save me. There I go but for the grace of god….sprang to mind on more than one occasion.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 13:09
  #133 (permalink)  
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It is farcical to try to compare the trade of being a pilot to proper careers in medicine, law etc. It is apples and oranges.
When doctors fail it's usually one person who dies swiftly followed by a medical cover up to deny liability and compensation - remember that form you signed....

When we fail its a £350 million double-decker and the not-so-small matter of 527 passengers and that doesn't include infants under the age of 2.

If we had as many hull losses as daily medical malpractice, the general public probably wouldn't fly that often.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 17:52
  #134 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 680
I agree with Craggenmore.

Purely in terms of 'CRM' type issues, many in the medical profession accept they are light years behind airline's best practice!

If you think of the processes in an operating theatre (for example) in similar terms to a flight, you may see what I mean.

Whilst an essential basis for success, the best 'technical' individuals aren't necessarily the ones consistently producing the best outcomes. Except in individual sports like tennis perhaps???
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 18:24
  #135 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Crawley
Age: 50
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Its possibly true to say that the CRM with some of the surgeons/consultants leaves a lot to be desired. Medicine and Airline Pilot work were very similar years gone by with respect to professional nature, standing, pay etc

The OP of this very thread indicates the absolute gulf between the two careers today. PAYING £115k. Yes read it again in isolation....


ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN THOUSAND POUNDS... eye watering amount of cash

The Airlines hold only one ace, CRM, but that said the medical profession are taking note and adopting the CRM model, the Airlines unfortunately lag a very long way behind in many respects, in comparison to medicine. I guess in medicine you become more valuable WITH experience rather than simply WITHOUT experience but WITH cash

The medical trade havent allowed the "dumbing down" of their industry, paying £115k to get ahead to wear a plastic anorak, and ability to pay having more clout than ability

Unfortunately the Airline career in 2014 doesnt compare favourably at all to that of the medical man. Plus the medical man can move from one hospital to the next once he gains experience

The CTC model/CTC "product"/path into the loco are unfortunately a reflection of the state of our once great country.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 18:53
  #136 (permalink)  
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£115k to become a 4 sector a day slave! You guys must be on crack!
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 16:44
  #137 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 30
Posts: 15
There is no way to satisfy people. Period.

In America, to fly the big jets you need 1,500 hours on your ATP to be eligible for an airline interview.

In The UK/Europe, a lot of the times it is possible to get a job fresh from school being Integrated or Modular. No matter wether you paid £40,000 for your training, or £85,000. The fact that Europe Airlines accept cadets is good, right? So why are people here complaining about putting low experienced pilots on a multi million Jet with over 100 passengers when I can bet you that no one would say no to an airline if a job opportunity was given straight after the training! Oh but it's MPL the problem?

Before people start to get angry and go all negative, I'm going Modular, not because I disagree with Integrated or MPL, because it suits me best and I have personal reasons that overall makes Modular a good choice.

But lets stop being the old man who can't adapt to todays society for a second.

fATPL path has existed for a long time, its still the most common way to become a pilot, but has not changed for a long time. Throughout your licences you often learn how to be a Pilot In Command rather than Multi Crew ... at the end of almost 2 years of training, you then do a quick MCC. to then fly for the rest of your life in a Multi Crew environment.

Throughout history, a lot of accidents has been due to pilot error, I doubt any of them had a MPL and/or only started their flying career. And I'm sure that you are now eager to say 'so we just going to sit around and wait for an accident to happen from a MPL pilot?' - No, but for airlines to choose this path is because it offers benefits that can tailor the airline to its preference.

In a fast changing environment I understand why MPL came into existence.
Airlines want to save money, Airlines need pilots quickly and they want to make them their way, Airlines understand the importance of being able to work in a multi crew environment from the beginning of the training to the flight deck!

Now why the £109,000 from EZY? well isn't £85,000 from Integrated alone then £24,000 for type rating? and then £38,000 starting salary!? Why the complaint? It's an investment, Airlines are business, therefore we treat our big sum of money/loan as business too which in a long run we get it return with the best job in the world. But because CTCWings is being honest about the overall price rather then say 'oh by the way theres this more to pay...' on the interview?

What about OAA integrated training then approx £30,000 for Ryanair TR? a total of £110,000.

Whats so special about this one? oh it's MPL....

There are things I still don't agree with MPL such as low flying and more Simulator but this is still a 'new' to the world licence (hence no captains yet) So like anything, it takes time to improve, make changes etc.

I really wish I could understand why is the PPRuNe so negative sometimes.

Even with Aer Lingus people were complaining about paying £25,000 even though the airline says that will pay 75% of the training.

Anyway, let the war begin!
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 17:01
  #138 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2014
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and there you have it. Completely industry with salaries and conditions being smashed to the basement and PID thinks it is Ok. With his 5 minutes of experience. PID - ask the thousands of pilots who apply for every flight deck role that comes up, most of whom are unemployed why MPL and its cut price attraction to airlines is such a disaster.
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 17:31
  #139 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 92
Now why the £109,000 from EZY? well isn't £85,000 from Integrated alone then £24,000 for type rating? and then £38,000 starting salary!? Why the complaint? It's an investment, Airlines are business, therefore we treat our big sum of money/loan as business too which in a long run we get it return with the best job in the world.
Oh boy. Good luck in the real world buddy. I've been flying for 7 years and I used to be like you, now I know what I know. I've watched friends pay £80,000 and get no where. Therein lies at least part of the problem with your argument... even if it is the best job in the world (your perspective on that question will change dramatically in your first 5 years believe me) a significant number of people who spend the money will never end up working for an airline. You think just because CTC rubber stamp your application you are necessarily on the fast track to easyJet? Think again. It will depend entirely on your performance on the course and the economic situation when you graduate.

It is totally impossible to explain to anyone who hasn't done the job. Airlines want more and more for less and less reward. You think £38,000 is a lot of money? I've been paying my loan off (£1200/month) for 8 years and I still have two to go. Mortgage? No chance. I might be able to actually start saving for a house in 2 years when I finally pay it off.

I realize there will be no convincing you. There was no convincing me. I got lucky - I hope you do too.

Last edited by Northern Monkey; 24th Oct 2014 at 18:03.
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 19:05
  #140 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sand free now
Posts: 193
The fact that Europe Airlines accept cadets is good, right?

Yes, but not every RHS. But it will be this way as long as the training companies are making so much from each candidate.

And when everyone (including you) is still earning peanuts in 10 years time will you think it so wonderful then? That is if you have not been replaced by a cheap kid fresh from school whose daddy has bought him a job.
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