£110k+ EZY MPL scheme
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4468. I am of course familiar with AF447. You know as well as I do that with the myriad of factors involved it can't be used to argue for or against MPL flying. The copilot at the controls was also a glider pilot - can't get much more familiar with the flight envelope than that can you?
Regardless, it still falls into what I called the rarest of circumstances (and is still trained for anyhow).The far more likely life-threatening problem an airline pilot is going to encounter is a medical emergency, fuel emergency, smoke or fire, a defect that requires correct management etc etc. In those circumstances, good CRM through airline flying experience is much more likely to help you than watching 17 year olds fly around at 2000ft, in my opinion.
I will reiterate, I DO think instructor experience is valuable, but I do not think it is irreplaceable.
Regardless, it still falls into what I called the rarest of circumstances (and is still trained for anyhow).The far more likely life-threatening problem an airline pilot is going to encounter is a medical emergency, fuel emergency, smoke or fire, a defect that requires correct management etc etc. In those circumstances, good CRM through airline flying experience is much more likely to help you than watching 17 year olds fly around at 2000ft, in my opinion.
I will reiterate, I DO think instructor experience is valuable, but I do not think it is irreplaceable.
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You're absolutely correct. I should have phrased it better.
I should have said: The World's finest, and the World's FIRST independent Air Force. That would have been more accurate.
Thanks.
Edited to add:
The Royal Air Force was formed on 1st Apr 1918. The US Air Force was formed on 18th Sep 1947.
Incidentally, this is why it is never necessary to refer to it as the 'British' Royal Air Force, as one might refer to the Royal Canadian/Australian/New Zealand etc Air Forces.
It is simply THE Royal Air Force! Because that's what it is.
It's what it says on the tin.
I should have said: The World's finest, and the World's FIRST independent Air Force. That would have been more accurate.
Thanks.
Edited to add:
The Royal Air Force was formed on 1st Apr 1918. The US Air Force was formed on 18th Sep 1947.
Incidentally, this is why it is never necessary to refer to it as the 'British' Royal Air Force, as one might refer to the Royal Canadian/Australian/New Zealand etc Air Forces.
It is simply THE Royal Air Force! Because that's what it is.
It's what it says on the tin.
Last edited by 4468; 22nd Oct 2014 at 22:28.
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is this anything like the multi million pound global business that is Formula One?
Good drivers get paid millions, to drive the front running cars. Rich kids pay millions to drive the slower ones.
It's worrying for the passengers in the back to know one of the passengers paid a lot more for his ticket, and gets to fly the rest of us
Good drivers get paid millions, to drive the front running cars. Rich kids pay millions to drive the slower ones.
It's worrying for the passengers in the back to know one of the passengers paid a lot more for his ticket, and gets to fly the rest of us
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I think it's testament to the quality of simulators these days that much of the training can actually be done in one. I'd be surprised if a lack of "real" flying in light aircraft compared with pretend flying in a full motion simulator made a great deal of difference to the end product. I don't think you need to worry Interested Passenger. 
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Spent close to 2000 hrs instructing (VFR and IFR) before joining the jet fleet. If it wasn't for that I might not have passed the sim? A raw data ILS during the TR wasn't a big thing, because whether I was flying SEP or fast jet my scan was significantly faster than my friends' who came straight from school. I attribute this mostly to the IFR instructing I did though.
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The experience of the CTC/MPL product with regard to operating and flying the A320 series does not concern me. easyJet have a very good, some might say superb, training department. The command training is exhaustive and the airlines SOP's generally cater for the lowest common experience level.
Where I have my concerns lies outside the scope of button pushing and operational decision making. I think this product (CTC/MPL)will be loath to do the right thing when it comes to issues like the application of commanders discretion. I believe the limited experience of other aspects of flying will allow the company to exert commercial pressure to influence decision making especially in the MPL case.
After all most of the truly spectacular
I made were flying outside the airline environment without prescriptive SOP's to save me. There I go but for the grace of god….sprang to mind on more than one occasion.
Where I have my concerns lies outside the scope of button pushing and operational decision making. I think this product (CTC/MPL)will be loath to do the right thing when it comes to issues like the application of commanders discretion. I believe the limited experience of other aspects of flying will allow the company to exert commercial pressure to influence decision making especially in the MPL case.
After all most of the truly spectacular
I made were flying outside the airline environment without prescriptive SOP's to save me. There I go but for the grace of god….sprang to mind on more than one occasion.
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It is farcical to try to compare the trade of being a pilot to proper careers in medicine, law etc. It is apples and oranges.
When we fail its a £350 million double-decker and the not-so-small matter of 527 passengers and that doesn't include infants under the age of 2.
If we had as many hull losses as daily medical malpractice, the general public probably wouldn't fly that often.
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I agree with Craggenmore.
Purely in terms of 'CRM' type issues, many in the medical profession accept they are light years behind airline's best practice!
If you think of the processes in an operating theatre (for example) in similar terms to a flight, you may see what I mean.
Whilst an essential basis for success, the best 'technical' individuals aren't necessarily the ones consistently producing the best outcomes. Except in individual sports like tennis perhaps???
Purely in terms of 'CRM' type issues, many in the medical profession accept they are light years behind airline's best practice!
If you think of the processes in an operating theatre (for example) in similar terms to a flight, you may see what I mean.
Whilst an essential basis for success, the best 'technical' individuals aren't necessarily the ones consistently producing the best outcomes. Except in individual sports like tennis perhaps???
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Its possibly true to say that the CRM with some of the surgeons/consultants leaves a lot to be desired. Medicine and Airline Pilot work were very similar years gone by with respect to professional nature, standing, pay etc
The OP of this very thread indicates the absolute gulf between the two careers today. PAYING £115k. Yes read it again in isolation....
PAYING SOMEBODY £115,000 TO TRAIN
ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN THOUSAND POUNDS... eye watering amount of cash
The Airlines hold only one ace, CRM, but that said the medical profession are taking note and adopting the CRM model, the Airlines unfortunately lag a very long way behind in many respects, in comparison to medicine. I guess in medicine you become more valuable WITH experience rather than simply WITHOUT experience but WITH cash
The medical trade havent allowed the "dumbing down" of their industry, paying £115k to get ahead to wear a plastic anorak, and ability to pay having more clout than ability
Unfortunately the Airline career in 2014 doesnt compare favourably at all to that of the medical man. Plus the medical man can move from one hospital to the next once he gains experience
The CTC model/CTC "product"/path into the loco are unfortunately a reflection of the state of our once great country.
The OP of this very thread indicates the absolute gulf between the two careers today. PAYING £115k. Yes read it again in isolation....
PAYING SOMEBODY £115,000 TO TRAIN
ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN THOUSAND POUNDS... eye watering amount of cash
The Airlines hold only one ace, CRM, but that said the medical profession are taking note and adopting the CRM model, the Airlines unfortunately lag a very long way behind in many respects, in comparison to medicine. I guess in medicine you become more valuable WITH experience rather than simply WITHOUT experience but WITH cash
The medical trade havent allowed the "dumbing down" of their industry, paying £115k to get ahead to wear a plastic anorak, and ability to pay having more clout than ability
Unfortunately the Airline career in 2014 doesnt compare favourably at all to that of the medical man. Plus the medical man can move from one hospital to the next once he gains experience
The CTC model/CTC "product"/path into the loco are unfortunately a reflection of the state of our once great country.
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There is no way to satisfy people. Period.
In America, to fly the big jets you need 1,500 hours on your ATP to be eligible for an airline interview.
In The UK/Europe, a lot of the times it is possible to get a job fresh from school being Integrated or Modular. No matter wether you paid £40,000 for your training, or £85,000. The fact that Europe Airlines accept cadets is good, right? So why are people here complaining about putting low experienced pilots on a multi million Jet with over 100 passengers when I can bet you that no one would say no to an airline if a job opportunity was given straight after the training! Oh but it's MPL the problem?
Before people start to get angry and go all negative, I'm going Modular, not because I disagree with Integrated or MPL, because it suits me best and I have personal reasons that overall makes Modular a good choice.
But lets stop being the old man who can't adapt to todays society for a second.
fATPL path has existed for a long time, its still the most common way to become a pilot, but has not changed for a long time. Throughout your licences you often learn how to be a Pilot In Command rather than Multi Crew ... at the end of almost 2 years of training, you then do a quick MCC. to then fly for the rest of your life in a Multi Crew environment.
Throughout history, a lot of accidents has been due to pilot error, I doubt any of them had a MPL and/or only started their flying career. And I'm sure that you are now eager to say 'so we just going to sit around and wait for an accident to happen from a MPL pilot?' - No, but for airlines to choose this path is because it offers benefits that can tailor the airline to its preference.
In a fast changing environment I understand why MPL came into existence.
Airlines want to save money, Airlines need pilots quickly and they want to make them their way, Airlines understand the importance of being able to work in a multi crew environment from the beginning of the training to the flight deck!
Now why the £109,000 from EZY? well isn't £85,000 from Integrated alone then £24,000 for type rating? and then £38,000 starting salary!? Why the complaint? It's an investment, Airlines are business, therefore we treat our big sum of money/loan as business too which in a long run we get it return with the best job in the world. But because CTCWings is being honest about the overall price rather then say 'oh by the way theres this more to pay...' on the interview?
What about OAA integrated training then approx £30,000 for Ryanair TR? a total of £110,000.
Whats so special about this one? oh it's MPL....
There are things I still don't agree with MPL such as low flying and more Simulator but this is still a 'new' to the world licence (hence no captains yet) So like anything, it takes time to improve, make changes etc.
I really wish I could understand why is the pprune so negative sometimes.
Even with Aer Lingus people were complaining about paying £25,000 even though the airline says that will pay 75% of the training.
Anyway, let the war begin!
In America, to fly the big jets you need 1,500 hours on your ATP to be eligible for an airline interview.
In The UK/Europe, a lot of the times it is possible to get a job fresh from school being Integrated or Modular. No matter wether you paid £40,000 for your training, or £85,000. The fact that Europe Airlines accept cadets is good, right? So why are people here complaining about putting low experienced pilots on a multi million Jet with over 100 passengers when I can bet you that no one would say no to an airline if a job opportunity was given straight after the training! Oh but it's MPL the problem?
Before people start to get angry and go all negative, I'm going Modular, not because I disagree with Integrated or MPL, because it suits me best and I have personal reasons that overall makes Modular a good choice.
But lets stop being the old man who can't adapt to todays society for a second.
fATPL path has existed for a long time, its still the most common way to become a pilot, but has not changed for a long time. Throughout your licences you often learn how to be a Pilot In Command rather than Multi Crew ... at the end of almost 2 years of training, you then do a quick MCC. to then fly for the rest of your life in a Multi Crew environment.
Throughout history, a lot of accidents has been due to pilot error, I doubt any of them had a MPL and/or only started their flying career. And I'm sure that you are now eager to say 'so we just going to sit around and wait for an accident to happen from a MPL pilot?' - No, but for airlines to choose this path is because it offers benefits that can tailor the airline to its preference.
In a fast changing environment I understand why MPL came into existence.
Airlines want to save money, Airlines need pilots quickly and they want to make them their way, Airlines understand the importance of being able to work in a multi crew environment from the beginning of the training to the flight deck!
Now why the £109,000 from EZY? well isn't £85,000 from Integrated alone then £24,000 for type rating? and then £38,000 starting salary!? Why the complaint? It's an investment, Airlines are business, therefore we treat our big sum of money/loan as business too which in a long run we get it return with the best job in the world. But because CTCWings is being honest about the overall price rather then say 'oh by the way theres this more to pay...' on the interview?
What about OAA integrated training then approx £30,000 for Ryanair TR? a total of £110,000.
Whats so special about this one? oh it's MPL....
There are things I still don't agree with MPL such as low flying and more Simulator but this is still a 'new' to the world licence (hence no captains yet) So like anything, it takes time to improve, make changes etc.
I really wish I could understand why is the pprune so negative sometimes.
Even with Aer Lingus people were complaining about paying £25,000 even though the airline says that will pay 75% of the training.
Anyway, let the war begin!
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and there you have it. Completely industry with salaries and conditions being smashed to the basement and PID thinks it is Ok. With his 5 minutes of experience. PID - ask the thousands of pilots who apply for every flight deck role that comes up, most of whom are unemployed why MPL and its cut price attraction to airlines is such a disaster.
industry with salaries and conditions being smashed to the basement and PID thinks it is Ok. With his 5 minutes of experience. PID - ask the thousands of pilots who apply for every flight deck role that comes up, most of whom are unemployed why MPL and its cut price attraction to airlines is such a disaster.
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Now why the £109,000 from EZY? well isn't £85,000 from Integrated alone then £24,000 for type rating? and then £38,000 starting salary!? Why the complaint? It's an investment, Airlines are business, therefore we treat our big sum of money/loan as business too which in a long run we get it return with the best job in the world.
It is totally impossible to explain to anyone who hasn't done the job. Airlines want more and more for less and less reward. You think £38,000 is a lot of money? I've been paying my loan off (£1200/month) for 8 years and I still have two to go. Mortgage? No chance. I might be able to actually start saving for a house in 2 years when I finally pay it off.
I realize there will be no convincing you. There was no convincing me. I got lucky - I hope you do too.
Last edited by Northern Monkey; 24th Oct 2014 at 18:03.
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The fact that Europe Airlines accept cadets is good, right?
Yes, but not every RHS. But it will be this way as long as the training companies are making so much from each candidate.
And when everyone (including you) is still earning peanuts in 10 years time will you think it so wonderful then? That is if you have not been replaced by a cheap kid fresh from school whose daddy has bought him a job.
Yes, but not every RHS. But it will be this way as long as the training companies are making so much from each candidate.
And when everyone (including you) is still earning peanuts in 10 years time will you think it so wonderful then? That is if you have not been replaced by a cheap kid fresh from school whose daddy has bought him a job.
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Before people start to get angry and go all negative, I'm going Modular, not because I disagree with Integrated or MPL, because it suits me best and I have personal reasons that overall makes Modular a good choice.