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£110k+ EZY MPL scheme

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£110k+ EZY MPL scheme

Old 16th Oct 2014, 21:17
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Bradley Hardacre

I couldn't agree more. What else does an employer need to ask? Certainly little need for any aptitude tests if training is entirely at the risk of the trainee!!!

Endofan Industry

I'm genuinely interested in your post. It's a side of this business I wasn't previously aware of. What is the stepped command payscale, and what attitude do these 'unpalatable individuals' bring with them?

Many thanks.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 21:18
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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You do realise that the Dutch who go through EPST (but actually train with Oxford) pay nearly 200,000 €, right?
I was unsurprised to find that. Given the attitude and reputation of their output
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 21:53
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
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The price is absolutely outrageous, but playing devil's advocate let's look at it from a longer term point of view:

They get an A320 type rating, which gives them a much better chance of earning a living than many other TRs AND it puts them right at the front of the queue when, let's say, BA start recruiting. Whereas the likes of me in my turboprop get left to the end when employers have ran out of type rated guys. Is it really that surprising that they want to buy their way up the queue? I'm sure many people on here would do exactly the same thing if they were making these decisions again.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 21:58
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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£120k.....

Now let's get this right. It's not just Easy that take advantage of this abomination of employing cheap labour.
Look what's happend at Monarch! (30% reduction in pay for all)
BA / IAG, Review of S/H!
Virgin, consideration of MPL pilots for L/H,
Not to mention the dreaded MOL Army.
Now what is the pilot population doing about it? (sweet F/A)
O yes let's blame BALPA!
Well guess what!! We are BALPA. All of us who pay our 1%.

Stating the obvious;
The economics are simple. The cost of flying families to sunnier climes costs more than £19 a seat. So Mr brilliant Bean counter, sez, I know let's shift the cost to the pointy end, that way our profits are secured. And then pay an FO flumpence as he should be grateful for a job.
The only reason Train Drivers have kept their T/C's are they are organised, and prepared to stand up to any threats from their employers.

Why shouldn't the flying public know that the guy/gal in the RHS is paying for the privilege of being a pilot? And that he/she has a dept of £100k+, and has to come to work fatigued, feeling unwell to furnish his/her dept.
Spleen vented.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 22:21
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Bang on post Portside.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 22:57
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Doctors pay for a medical degree...
Lawyers pay for a law degree...
Getting a pilot's degree (if you will) requires much more high tech (expensive) kit that a musty lecture theatre and a professor or two.

This is no longer the '60s when firms were falling over themselves to offer you a job. It's supply and demand and it's a tough world out there for the late teens / early twenty-somethings.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 23:20
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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vrb03kt mentioned the devil's advocate. Timely and appropriate, for what we now need for clarity and enlightenment is another long post from the venerable yet completely impartial (no vested interest or agenda) BEELZEBUB to explain why this ab initio scam makes perfect sense, is the best way of doing business and is intrinsically correct.

A mucker of mine who's a Training Captain at Easy has been grumbling about these schemes for a while now. He feels like he's flying single pilot alot of the time due to the throughput of inexperienced cadets.
Perhaps cash is no substitute for competency - which is derived through experience. Be nice if said mucker along with said mucker's like minded mates were to speak up and put their concerns and observations into the public spotlight.
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 00:42
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sapperkenno
Even better would be to stop paying for everything post-PPL. Now tell me why that wouldn't work?
Are you joking? Firstly this would take collaboration on a gigantic scale. Down to the last wannabe pilot. In practice, of course, totally impossible.

But even if you could get everyone in the whole bloody country to agree to put their lives on hold until airlines offer more, you would also need to agree a level at which the pilots all stop boycotting airlines. What if some think that airlines paying for CPL/IR is enough, while you're holding out for paid TR/better T&Cs/lifestyle? Oops, system breaks down.

And then if by some miracle EVERYBODY agreed to the exact same goals, and NOBODY gave in for anything less, as soon as those goals were reached there'd be a stampede for the few jobs that existed. And what does huge supply and low demand create? Wheee back to the start again.


The rest of your drivel post really didn't have enough meat in it to even bother engaging.
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 02:38
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Endofan industry, you say you 'work with' - are you a captain for easyJet or an FO?
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 06:58
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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It's interesting to note that in the States, where they have now brought in the 1500 hours requirement for commercial ops, that a lot of young people are turning their backs on the industry as they don't fancy the prospect of a massive financial outlay for little return...
And lo and behold now, a few airlines are offering signing bonuses to try and get people in, because those who are qualified are turning down the offer of a crap, low paid lifestyle.

Let's see if I can do this bit without drivelling again... It's not so much the money (having enough of it to pay) that grates me, or makes me jealous, but how people are so willing to pay through the nose, to be a slave for an airline and play into the hands of airlines and the training providers (who work hand in hand) who then knack the T&Cs across the board as they wish because there is always a ready supply of the next bunch of idiots wanting to sell their souls and rubbish the system even more.

None of these wide-eyed kids see any of this, as their exposure to it all is only watching pilots in their uniforms at the airport when they go on their holidays, drooling over the advertising pictures of an airliner flightdeck with an alluring view in the various pilot magazines, reading crap on this website (other websites are available) and FALLING FOR THE GLOSSY BS ADVERTISING of the likes of CTC/OAT etc. Get down your local flying club, talk to proper pilots (there will be a few current/ex-airlines, not just flying for fun PPLers) who fly for a living who aren't trying to sell you something, and hopefully you'll rethink it all and get a better idea what is involved. Don't get indoctrinated and think the only way to become a pilot is to part with vast sums of cash.
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 07:16
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Sapperkenno, that's a lovely sentiment but try telling that to the people who "fell for the glossy BS" five years or so ago and are now only a couple of years away from a command. I think it will fall on deaf ears.

I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm simply saying that it is how it is. Feel free to waste time down at your local flying club if you wish, that's not where a career in aviation lies these days.
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 07:23
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Sapperkenno,

Nice post, pretty much hits the nail on the head but, sadly, won't change anything.

Those wannabees who proliferate through this system will just view those refusing to be drawn in as one less obstacle in the way to them getting their RHS place. If they have the opportunity to pay, be it through bank of Mum & Dad or dreadful loans from sharking banks, then they will take the course as the 'foot in the door'. Unfortunately it takes a few years of hard graft on the line for them to realise that their actions have detrimental effects on their future remuneration.


Be nice if said mucker along with said mucker's like minded mates were to speak up and put their concerns and observations into the public spotlight.
They have, many times to the airlines training managers and the safety council but, as they are running a pretty heavy revenue stream, their concerns fall on deaf ears. Remember, in this industry as in the military, the QRH and change are generally written in blood.


Checked for typo's, missed letters and inappropriately spaced words on an Android phone from the beach in St Lucia after 1 sector!

Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 17th Oct 2014 at 07:24. Reason: Horror of horrors, missed a comma!
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 08:43
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 09:13
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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WHYEYEMAN said

'Doctors pay for a medical degree...
Lawyers pay for a law degree... '

I agree:
Doctors pay for their medical degree; Lawyers pay for their law degree, why shouldn't pilots pay for their flying licence? Why are some professions expected to pay for their own qualifications? I would assume it is because their ultimate remuneration is much higher. If anyone is going to have their training paid for surely it should be doctors who benefit the community to a greater degree.

Doctors and lawyers need to have far higher educational qualifications to get into their profession and their training is much longer; 7 years for a doctor as opposed to maximum 2 years for a pilot.
Once qualifiied and employed a junior doctor earns mid 20K whereas a SO earns 40K+.
Yes airline pilots hours can be unsociable and tiring but so are doctors.
So why should pilots be any different?

I think the TR should be paid for by the airline but as for the basic qualification paying for yourself is one way into the profession. If you can get an airline to sponsor you great, if not and you can pay, go for it. The rewards if you really want to fly far outweigh the difficulties.

Many of the newbies are attracted to airline flying for the glamour but has that not always been the case?
In flying, medicine and law most benefits come later in ones career. The difference in the professions is that medicine and law have a much more hierarchical structure whereas in most airlines it is much flatter.

Can a doctor or lawyer expect to earn in excess of 120K within 5 years of qualifiying?

The world is changing and so is the profession. If you want to be an airline pilot this is the way it's going to be from now on and none of us can change it whether we are experienced long time trainers or wannabees; there is no point blaming anyone. The ones I feel sorry for are those trying to work their way up the business through instruction, air taxi and the regionals who now find themselves excluded from the opportunities to progress.
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 09:27
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Stiglet, medical school neither costs £110k nor takes 7 years. More like £45k in England and Wales (far better deal north of the border, and with bursaries in England and Wales, the figure can be lower, too) and 5 years as standard. Nobody needs to remortgage a house to go to medschool, though. Still, take your point about the more obvious benefits to the community in regard to potentially publicly funding that sort of endeavour. Admittedly, I think the Germans have got it right when it comes to university funding, but I've already gone off on enough of a tangent...
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 09:29
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Just a note to add that speaking as someone who flies with these "wide-eyed, gullible, spoiled, (insert derogatory adjective of choice)" CTC pilots, they are almost without exception a pleasure to fly with and very competent. When I say almost without exception, I can't remember the last time I had a tedious day out with one.

Inexperienced, yes. But thats why I'm there.

Wirbelsturm, well you're missing a beautiful autumn's day in the south of England and personally I feel sorry for you.
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 09:29
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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sad fact is that airline pilot pay is still artificially high. It is a job that doesn't require too much in the way of qualifications (it is open to school leavers after all), it is a semi-skilled job at best, and there is a never ending stream of people prepared to sell their souls to do it.
Ah, that old 'hand grenade' again. It's been around the block so many times it's just not worth the effort replying.

Wirbelsturm, well you're missing a beautiful autumn's day in the south of England and personally I feel sorry for you.
Feel free to. :-)
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 09:33
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Just a note to add that speaking as someone who flies with these "wide-eyed, gullible, spoiled, (insert derogatory adjective of choice)" CTC pilots, they are almost without exception a pleasure to fly with and very competent. When I say almost without exception, I can't remember the last time I had a tedious day out with one.
I would agree, they are very, very good. Keen, attentive, very well versed in the technical aspects of the operation. The applicants and the product are not the problem it's the situation behind them that is. Make the application criteria more difficult as the US has and the situation will change.
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 09:49
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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I won't ask what you were doing on the beach in St Lucia at 2am.
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Old 17th Oct 2014, 09:54
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Your training day at CTC will resemble to this:
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