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Enough!!!!!!!!!!!
Hand Solo:
"Which airline has flown billions of passengers across the world for over twenty five years without a crash"?
I always feel a bit uncomfortable when someone trots out the "safety card". It almost seems to be tempting fate. It could just as easily have been one of your 757s that bit the dust over southern Germany last week. Would one of your crews have reacted any differently to the TCAS warning than the DHL crew did? I very much doubt it.
Anyway, I presume that you are referring to British Airways in your safety statement? If so, what about the accident to Boeing 737-236 G-BGJL at Manchester on 22 August 1985? Please don't tell me that this doesn't count for it was a British Airtours flight and not a British Airways flight for that would be rather disingenuous.
The fact of the matter is that BA has had its fair share of luck over the years. The near collision between the 747 and the Penta Hotel is a case in point.
The Channel 4 documentary hardly presented a very good image of crew professionalism and made one wonder how long this had been going on for Channel 4 to get a hold of the story in the first place. The national press reports of the 757 captain who tried to report for a flight at Athens some 2 hours after leaving a night club were scarcely edifying either. I also seem to remember something about a BA F/O in uniform failing a police breathaliser test on the M4 on his way to work?
Let's face it, a lot of luck has been involved as well as everything else otherwise any one of the aforementioned gentlemen could easily have caused a disaster.
I am not surprised that your ex-Air Atlantique guys are happy. I would guess that they find their new life in BA money for old rope compared to where they have been.
I have never flown the products of M Airbus but friends who know (senior Airbus trainers) tell me that once you have grasped the Airbus philosophy, they are a piece of cake to operate. Let's face it, hundreds and hundreds of them get airborne every day all over the world and very, very few of them end up as smoking heaps!
I think SBA was perhaps trying to suggest that his job is just a wee bit more demanding than yours. I think he might well be right.
"Which airline has flown billions of passengers across the world for over twenty five years without a crash"?
I always feel a bit uncomfortable when someone trots out the "safety card". It almost seems to be tempting fate. It could just as easily have been one of your 757s that bit the dust over southern Germany last week. Would one of your crews have reacted any differently to the TCAS warning than the DHL crew did? I very much doubt it.
Anyway, I presume that you are referring to British Airways in your safety statement? If so, what about the accident to Boeing 737-236 G-BGJL at Manchester on 22 August 1985? Please don't tell me that this doesn't count for it was a British Airtours flight and not a British Airways flight for that would be rather disingenuous.
The fact of the matter is that BA has had its fair share of luck over the years. The near collision between the 747 and the Penta Hotel is a case in point.
The Channel 4 documentary hardly presented a very good image of crew professionalism and made one wonder how long this had been going on for Channel 4 to get a hold of the story in the first place. The national press reports of the 757 captain who tried to report for a flight at Athens some 2 hours after leaving a night club were scarcely edifying either. I also seem to remember something about a BA F/O in uniform failing a police breathaliser test on the M4 on his way to work?
Let's face it, a lot of luck has been involved as well as everything else otherwise any one of the aforementioned gentlemen could easily have caused a disaster.
I am not surprised that your ex-Air Atlantique guys are happy. I would guess that they find their new life in BA money for old rope compared to where they have been.
I have never flown the products of M Airbus but friends who know (senior Airbus trainers) tell me that once you have grasped the Airbus philosophy, they are a piece of cake to operate. Let's face it, hundreds and hundreds of them get airborne every day all over the world and very, very few of them end up as smoking heaps!
I think SBA was perhaps trying to suggest that his job is just a wee bit more demanding than yours. I think he might well be right.
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JW411, Thanks for the support. I would not wish to make any presumptions regarding whose job is the more difficult as it is horses for courses, and I certainly would not like to cast any doubt over the professionalism of BA or any other operator.
The point I was trying to make was that in my view it defies belief that in the current climate BA pilots are crying for industrial action over pay and conditions. Pilots throughout the UK have suffered pay cuts at best and redundancy in many cases. BA is on its knees and has made thousands redundant, arguably through no fault of their own.
This thread was put forward on a public forum rather than a BA private forum (I assume they have one) and I can only guess that this was with the intention of airing grievances in the public domain. If you do that, then you leave yourself open to criticism from those who disagree. I have no axe to grind with BA or their pilots, despite the accusations levelled by Leslie and Hand Solo, but the contents of this thread in the public domain discredit the whole profession which does extend beyond LHR terminal 4.
Had there been a call for industrial action over the thousands of BA ground staff laid off post 11/9, you would have had my full support, however, not a murmur on that front as they were not pilots so presumably don't matter. How do you think they feel hearing that the pilots, who already enjoy amongst the best pay and conditions in the country, want more?
Land ASAP, you seem to be suggesting that the Sabena pilots all just moved into other positions and therefore it didn't matter much to them that the carrier went under. DAT, who you quote as employing many of the Sabena pilots was a franchise operator for Sabena with a lower cost base and inferior pay and conditions for aircrew than the former mainline pilots. So there is Mr. Eddingtons perfect business plan. Shut down the mainline short haul operations with its huge cost base and obvious labour problems and transfer the whole lot to a franchisee (GB for example). The pilots can have their jobs back if they want under reduced terms and conditions. That is pretty much what has happened in Belgium.
So despite the accusations of envy and bitterness, If BA have a genuine grievance then I wish them the best of luck in their claims, but the water allowance and ground transport issues suggest to the outside world that the motivation for these claims is nothing but sheer greed.
The point I was trying to make was that in my view it defies belief that in the current climate BA pilots are crying for industrial action over pay and conditions. Pilots throughout the UK have suffered pay cuts at best and redundancy in many cases. BA is on its knees and has made thousands redundant, arguably through no fault of their own.
This thread was put forward on a public forum rather than a BA private forum (I assume they have one) and I can only guess that this was with the intention of airing grievances in the public domain. If you do that, then you leave yourself open to criticism from those who disagree. I have no axe to grind with BA or their pilots, despite the accusations levelled by Leslie and Hand Solo, but the contents of this thread in the public domain discredit the whole profession which does extend beyond LHR terminal 4.
Had there been a call for industrial action over the thousands of BA ground staff laid off post 11/9, you would have had my full support, however, not a murmur on that front as they were not pilots so presumably don't matter. How do you think they feel hearing that the pilots, who already enjoy amongst the best pay and conditions in the country, want more?
Land ASAP, you seem to be suggesting that the Sabena pilots all just moved into other positions and therefore it didn't matter much to them that the carrier went under. DAT, who you quote as employing many of the Sabena pilots was a franchise operator for Sabena with a lower cost base and inferior pay and conditions for aircrew than the former mainline pilots. So there is Mr. Eddingtons perfect business plan. Shut down the mainline short haul operations with its huge cost base and obvious labour problems and transfer the whole lot to a franchisee (GB for example). The pilots can have their jobs back if they want under reduced terms and conditions. That is pretty much what has happened in Belgium.
So despite the accusations of envy and bitterness, If BA have a genuine grievance then I wish them the best of luck in their claims, but the water allowance and ground transport issues suggest to the outside world that the motivation for these claims is nothing but sheer greed.
SBA:
I congratulate you on your very eloquent posting and I agree with just about everything you say. It is a sad fact that a lot of folks in our profession are still living in cloud-cuckoo land.
You are quite right about about the ex-SABENA situation. I am told by pilots who live in Belgium that "hundreds" of ex-SABENA pilots are still looking for work. Some of them have gone down to the Congo to take up the prestige jobs that are on offer there.
Furthermore, I had a conversation with a friend who was recently in a position to hire some pilots and he told me that he would not consider hiring ex-SABENA pilots for at least another 18 months for they have to learn how to be hungry first!
All things being considered, I think I could live with a 1.5 litre water allowance.
I congratulate you on your very eloquent posting and I agree with just about everything you say. It is a sad fact that a lot of folks in our profession are still living in cloud-cuckoo land.
You are quite right about about the ex-SABENA situation. I am told by pilots who live in Belgium that "hundreds" of ex-SABENA pilots are still looking for work. Some of them have gone down to the Congo to take up the prestige jobs that are on offer there.
Furthermore, I had a conversation with a friend who was recently in a position to hire some pilots and he told me that he would not consider hiring ex-SABENA pilots for at least another 18 months for they have to learn how to be hungry first!
All things being considered, I think I could live with a 1.5 litre water allowance.
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So here we go again, its getting tedious but I'll add some facts to the debate.
JW411 - note I used the word 'crash'. You can hardly count Manchester as that, as I'm sure you'll recall it was an on ground incident with not a great deal the crew could do given the indications available to them and common operating practices of the day. Fact is we still haven't flown into any mountains for a long time and thats got rather more to do with the flight crew. Perhaps it is tempting fate to say things like that, but so be it. Maybe we've been lucky and others have not, but it seems the more we practice the luckier we get. Poor old CAL seem to be having a lot of strife lately, and I don't think thats down to bad luck.
Now the C4 documentary. Its been covered exhaustively on this forum before but to recap the key points:-
C4 could make an equally damning expose of your airline given unlimited time and money to follow and film crews, and total freedom to edit footage, dub your words and misrepresent times, places and actual events.
C4 filmed over 200 hours of video footage, yet only 23 mins was considered worthy of airtime, much of that being dubbed.
At the end of thorough disciplinary investigation, only 2 pilots (I think) were found guilty of gross misconduct and dismissed. A third resigned, although having (allegedly) been romantically involved with the protagonist previously he had been singled out for attention and followed on several occasions. Over 100 pilots were filmed, only 3 had commited serious wrongdoing.
You clearly believe an Airbus flies itself, yet there are plenty of detractors who'll point to smoking holes the world over where A320s have met their demise. Its still just an aircraft, despite the absence of a yoke, and a particularly slippery high performance aircraft that will get you in a lot of trouble very quickly if you don't stay on top. I don't know what you fly, but I chose not to say its a piece of cake when I no nothing about it.
Perhaps you think Sabena pilots are lazy, therefore so are BA pilots. Well at the last comparison I seem to remember we were doing twice as many block hours per month, so I suggest if you have that opinion then it is flawed. Furthermore your friend sounds like he has a very large chip on his shoulder seeing as he tars all SN pilots with the same brush rather than assess each individual on his merits.
My question to you - do you actually know any current BA pilot, or do you base all you opinions on the prejudices aired on this board and the jaundiced views of your long retired BA 747 Captain friend, who quite probably flew in a BA that he wouldn't recognise today.
SBA - Your points in turn-
Yes, pilots across the UK are losing their jobs, mostly in the IT sector with some in VS and BM. BALPA seems to be of the opinon that these job losses are due to knee jerk reactions by airline accountants and the sudden rehiring spree and suspension of redundancies support that view. Yet the low cost carriers need pilots faster than they can hire them, and are paying good rates. BA on the other hand are pleading poverty, yet flying chock full aircraft all over Europe, often with excellent business class loads, yet frequently paying their pilots comparable or lower wages than low cost carriers. If the company is losing money its not our fault, nor do I intend to subsidise the failings of other departments from my own pay packet.
There has been no call for industrial action for the thousands of ground staff laid off by BA because 9 months on from 911 BA has not laid anybody off. There has not been a single compulsory redundancy. We still have 18000 managers, and were still losing money hand over fist, just like we were before 911. And don't forget that some of those ground staff earn considerable sums. Tug drivers earning more than junior co-pilots? Managers reassinged from Waterside to LHR customer services on full pay? Some BA pilots enjoy amongst the best pay and conditions in the country, but the majority of short haull could achieve an equivalent package on their current aircraft elsewhere pension excluded (and that is under threat), ask any new DEP. If BA were really in deep we'd have seen real redundancies and not Manpower Equivalent Reductions. Interestingly the Future Size and Shape document only called for an MPE reduction of about 200 pilots to be achieved through retirement in the coming year, recognising the fact that we barely have enough pilots to cover the reduced schedule.
As for franchises, Rod has stated he is against franchises in principal. They were largely a product of the Ayling era. The theory of a franchise is they develop routes that are too lean for mainline, then when the routes grow mainline take them back and the franchise develop new routes. The problem with transferring all work to franchises is you then get less revenue than you did before but still have to support the massive corporate infrastructure upon fewer routes and it just doesn't work. As I have stated countless times before, flight crew costs are just 13% of BAs total labour costs (BAs own figures) and reducing year on year due to the retirement bulge. Slashing a third of the flight crew wont dent the enormous losses we're making. As for the reduced terms and conditions, having heard from some recently retired skippers who now work for a major franchise I'd gladly accept the increase in basic pay and the slashing of the number of sectors I do each month.
I consider it a great shame that you consider that our claim stems from greed, though I would be interested to hear your opinions on the recent 20% pay rise awarded to NHS consultants as part of a reform of their anachronistic pay system.
The simple fact is that despite the vitriol and hyperbole often directed at BA pilots, wages have declined significantly in real terms whilst productivity has increased hugely. Pay rises have been RPI or less, whilst the cost of living within travelling distance of our home base has risen almost exponentially. These modest increases have been accepted whilst other departments in the company have seen significantly higher rises without delivering productivity improvements. Goodwill has been squandered by management. Pilots have been told theres no more money available whilst staffing levels have sky rocketed and profits plummeted. We've been told 'market rate', yet our 737 trainers are being poached by low cost carriers. The majority of BA pilots are not paid in excess of the market rate and when compared to our european counterparts are paid significantly less for significantly more work. As was mentioned in the last edition of The Log, BA don't charge any less for there tickets, why should they get away with paying less.
I think it is a measure of our conservatism as a group that people take the time to try to explain our case on these forums. However, when the time comes the key point will be that our pay is our business and I really don't care what the Daily Mail or anyone else thinks I earn because they're not paying my bills. BA will pay as little as it can. If our rise breaks BA then maybe we'll talk about a pay cut later, but even an enormous 20% rise only adds 2.6% to the total labour bill, hardly bankruptcy stuff. Sensitivity be damned, because everybody in BA is renegotiating pay this year and I bet you wont find the cabin crew or MT drivers being moderate.
JW411 - note I used the word 'crash'. You can hardly count Manchester as that, as I'm sure you'll recall it was an on ground incident with not a great deal the crew could do given the indications available to them and common operating practices of the day. Fact is we still haven't flown into any mountains for a long time and thats got rather more to do with the flight crew. Perhaps it is tempting fate to say things like that, but so be it. Maybe we've been lucky and others have not, but it seems the more we practice the luckier we get. Poor old CAL seem to be having a lot of strife lately, and I don't think thats down to bad luck.
Now the C4 documentary. Its been covered exhaustively on this forum before but to recap the key points:-
C4 could make an equally damning expose of your airline given unlimited time and money to follow and film crews, and total freedom to edit footage, dub your words and misrepresent times, places and actual events.
C4 filmed over 200 hours of video footage, yet only 23 mins was considered worthy of airtime, much of that being dubbed.
At the end of thorough disciplinary investigation, only 2 pilots (I think) were found guilty of gross misconduct and dismissed. A third resigned, although having (allegedly) been romantically involved with the protagonist previously he had been singled out for attention and followed on several occasions. Over 100 pilots were filmed, only 3 had commited serious wrongdoing.
You clearly believe an Airbus flies itself, yet there are plenty of detractors who'll point to smoking holes the world over where A320s have met their demise. Its still just an aircraft, despite the absence of a yoke, and a particularly slippery high performance aircraft that will get you in a lot of trouble very quickly if you don't stay on top. I don't know what you fly, but I chose not to say its a piece of cake when I no nothing about it.
Perhaps you think Sabena pilots are lazy, therefore so are BA pilots. Well at the last comparison I seem to remember we were doing twice as many block hours per month, so I suggest if you have that opinion then it is flawed. Furthermore your friend sounds like he has a very large chip on his shoulder seeing as he tars all SN pilots with the same brush rather than assess each individual on his merits.
My question to you - do you actually know any current BA pilot, or do you base all you opinions on the prejudices aired on this board and the jaundiced views of your long retired BA 747 Captain friend, who quite probably flew in a BA that he wouldn't recognise today.
SBA - Your points in turn-
Yes, pilots across the UK are losing their jobs, mostly in the IT sector with some in VS and BM. BALPA seems to be of the opinon that these job losses are due to knee jerk reactions by airline accountants and the sudden rehiring spree and suspension of redundancies support that view. Yet the low cost carriers need pilots faster than they can hire them, and are paying good rates. BA on the other hand are pleading poverty, yet flying chock full aircraft all over Europe, often with excellent business class loads, yet frequently paying their pilots comparable or lower wages than low cost carriers. If the company is losing money its not our fault, nor do I intend to subsidise the failings of other departments from my own pay packet.
There has been no call for industrial action for the thousands of ground staff laid off by BA because 9 months on from 911 BA has not laid anybody off. There has not been a single compulsory redundancy. We still have 18000 managers, and were still losing money hand over fist, just like we were before 911. And don't forget that some of those ground staff earn considerable sums. Tug drivers earning more than junior co-pilots? Managers reassinged from Waterside to LHR customer services on full pay? Some BA pilots enjoy amongst the best pay and conditions in the country, but the majority of short haull could achieve an equivalent package on their current aircraft elsewhere pension excluded (and that is under threat), ask any new DEP. If BA were really in deep we'd have seen real redundancies and not Manpower Equivalent Reductions. Interestingly the Future Size and Shape document only called for an MPE reduction of about 200 pilots to be achieved through retirement in the coming year, recognising the fact that we barely have enough pilots to cover the reduced schedule.
As for franchises, Rod has stated he is against franchises in principal. They were largely a product of the Ayling era. The theory of a franchise is they develop routes that are too lean for mainline, then when the routes grow mainline take them back and the franchise develop new routes. The problem with transferring all work to franchises is you then get less revenue than you did before but still have to support the massive corporate infrastructure upon fewer routes and it just doesn't work. As I have stated countless times before, flight crew costs are just 13% of BAs total labour costs (BAs own figures) and reducing year on year due to the retirement bulge. Slashing a third of the flight crew wont dent the enormous losses we're making. As for the reduced terms and conditions, having heard from some recently retired skippers who now work for a major franchise I'd gladly accept the increase in basic pay and the slashing of the number of sectors I do each month.
I consider it a great shame that you consider that our claim stems from greed, though I would be interested to hear your opinions on the recent 20% pay rise awarded to NHS consultants as part of a reform of their anachronistic pay system.
The simple fact is that despite the vitriol and hyperbole often directed at BA pilots, wages have declined significantly in real terms whilst productivity has increased hugely. Pay rises have been RPI or less, whilst the cost of living within travelling distance of our home base has risen almost exponentially. These modest increases have been accepted whilst other departments in the company have seen significantly higher rises without delivering productivity improvements. Goodwill has been squandered by management. Pilots have been told theres no more money available whilst staffing levels have sky rocketed and profits plummeted. We've been told 'market rate', yet our 737 trainers are being poached by low cost carriers. The majority of BA pilots are not paid in excess of the market rate and when compared to our european counterparts are paid significantly less for significantly more work. As was mentioned in the last edition of The Log, BA don't charge any less for there tickets, why should they get away with paying less.
I think it is a measure of our conservatism as a group that people take the time to try to explain our case on these forums. However, when the time comes the key point will be that our pay is our business and I really don't care what the Daily Mail or anyone else thinks I earn because they're not paying my bills. BA will pay as little as it can. If our rise breaks BA then maybe we'll talk about a pay cut later, but even an enormous 20% rise only adds 2.6% to the total labour bill, hardly bankruptcy stuff. Sensitivity be damned, because everybody in BA is renegotiating pay this year and I bet you wont find the cabin crew or MT drivers being moderate.
Hand Solo:
So here we go again: Surely you must realise by now that every time you stick your head above the parapet whilst blowing a trumpet someone is liable to take a pot shot?
Manchester was not a crash it was an on ground incident: My guess is that the relatives of those who perished saw it as rather more than an incident. You surely cannot be suggesting that provided you die before V1 it doesn't count? Certainly, I did not nor will I point any criticism in the direction of the operating crew.
Fact is we still haven't flown into any mountains for a long time: So what is so special about that claim? I can think of dozens of airlines who have never flown into mountains either. Certainly none of the ones that I have ever flown for have collided with a mountain. Are you really saying that you have to fly into a mountain before it can be called a crash? If so, what would you call the SAS MD80 collision with the German Citation at Linate?
C4 - only 2 pilots were found guilty: Perhaps that was 2 too many? You would have to admit that the publicity was not good.
Airbus: I did not say that I think an Airbus flies itself. I have already stated that I have no experience of the products of M Airbus. What I said was that those who do know tell me that once the Airbus philosophy is fully understood it is a piece of cake to fly.
SABENA pilots: I never said anything about SABENA pilots being lazy. Once again, I never worked for SABENA and could not possibly comment. I merely passed on a couple of comments made by their fellow countrymen.
BA pilots: I never said anything about BA pilots being lazy.
BA friends: Most of the ones who are in my age group retired from BA at age 55. Some of them are now flying with other operators. Sadly, one of my best mates (L1011 F/E) died yesterday so no doubt we shall be planting him next week.
The ones who are still flying with BA are the younger ones who have passed through my hands on their way to BA. Funnily enough, most of them went on to the 767 fleet.
747/Penta: I notice that you made no comment about how lucky that was. Would that have constituted a CFIT crash despite the Penta not being a mountain?
757/Athens: No comment on that either?
Water allowance: I had it in mind that this started with a bitch about the long haul water allowance being cut to 1.5 litres. I used to have to be careful about getting dehydrated but I don't think I could sink 1.5 litres of water between London and LAX.
So here we go again: Surely you must realise by now that every time you stick your head above the parapet whilst blowing a trumpet someone is liable to take a pot shot?
Manchester was not a crash it was an on ground incident: My guess is that the relatives of those who perished saw it as rather more than an incident. You surely cannot be suggesting that provided you die before V1 it doesn't count? Certainly, I did not nor will I point any criticism in the direction of the operating crew.
Fact is we still haven't flown into any mountains for a long time: So what is so special about that claim? I can think of dozens of airlines who have never flown into mountains either. Certainly none of the ones that I have ever flown for have collided with a mountain. Are you really saying that you have to fly into a mountain before it can be called a crash? If so, what would you call the SAS MD80 collision with the German Citation at Linate?
C4 - only 2 pilots were found guilty: Perhaps that was 2 too many? You would have to admit that the publicity was not good.
Airbus: I did not say that I think an Airbus flies itself. I have already stated that I have no experience of the products of M Airbus. What I said was that those who do know tell me that once the Airbus philosophy is fully understood it is a piece of cake to fly.
SABENA pilots: I never said anything about SABENA pilots being lazy. Once again, I never worked for SABENA and could not possibly comment. I merely passed on a couple of comments made by their fellow countrymen.
BA pilots: I never said anything about BA pilots being lazy.
BA friends: Most of the ones who are in my age group retired from BA at age 55. Some of them are now flying with other operators. Sadly, one of my best mates (L1011 F/E) died yesterday so no doubt we shall be planting him next week.
The ones who are still flying with BA are the younger ones who have passed through my hands on their way to BA. Funnily enough, most of them went on to the 767 fleet.
747/Penta: I notice that you made no comment about how lucky that was. Would that have constituted a CFIT crash despite the Penta not being a mountain?
757/Athens: No comment on that either?
Water allowance: I had it in mind that this started with a bitch about the long haul water allowance being cut to 1.5 litres. I used to have to be careful about getting dehydrated but I don't think I could sink 1.5 litres of water between London and LAX.
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Quite!
Hand Solo, well put.
JW411, are you a relation of 411A? You seem to come out with the same sort of drivel, however I don't think that even he would resort to reopening old wounds and trying to hijack the obvious grief of relatives of the MAN deceased; shame on you for attemping to use their emotions to score points on a forum. As for the unprecednted event itself we have all learnt valuable lessons and pray that a similar accident does not happen again.
SAS/LIN.
Were you aware that a BA aircraft was cleared for take off but declined as the crew had noticed that the TCAS had not indicated that SAS was airborne? I agree that good and bad luck does raise its head occassionally but I would like to think that at BA our training and focus on operational integrity is such that we are prepared to deal with bad luck without having to rely on good luck. The simple fact is that "British Airways" has only had one hull loss in its history - in Kuwait during the Gulf War when the Iraqis had a pop at the empty aircraft. I hope that this continues.
C4
Obviously bad publicity but ask yourself 3 questions... i) if the makers were concerned about safety why did they withhold 'evidence' for over 7 months and allow drunk pilots to coninue flying? ii) re safety why were the film crew happy to board the airplane for return flights? iii) how many accidents have there been due to drunk pilots compared to fatigued pilots? As recent research in UK and US tiredness causes more road accidents than drunkeness. Surely then an investigation into dubious charter operations night flying there and back to the middle east.
Sabena
Whereas Hand Solo bears facts you state,"I merely passed on a couple of comments made by their fellow countrymen." Well why don't you just ask Joe Bloggs what he thinks about any operation in the UK, or better still don't bother asking and just assume what he will say - what a load of b******t!
B747/Penta Hotel
The B747c was notorious for occassionally hunting through the LOC, the crew were tired and got "landitus". However they did go around. The subsequent inquiry and handling of the crew in particular the Capt was not done well at all and he ended up paying the ultimate price - rest in peace you hurt no one.
B757/Athens
Unfortunately a tea-totaller who got a new command went out to celebrate, got drunk, couldn't handle it and f****d up. The crew intervened and the aircraft did not get airborne. For us that drink we have all made idiots of ourselves under the influence, sadly for this chap the first time for him was at work.
Water Allowance
How long is a LAX 10 hours perhaps, I don't know but the last JFK I did was 7hrs 48 mins. Bearing in mind you lose 500ml of water per hour of cruise and you cannot drink more than 1.5l I think that you would be severely dehydrated. Looking at my bottle of Highland Spring..."Most adults need to drink 8 glasses of water a day - only 1 in 10 do." and "A reduction of your daily requirements of water by 4-5% can reduce your concentration and performance by 20-30%" I think that you are also missing the point people are trying to make and that is there is constant erosion of our terms and conditions both major and minor, enough is enough.
We all await your response
Hand Solo, well put.
JW411, are you a relation of 411A? You seem to come out with the same sort of drivel, however I don't think that even he would resort to reopening old wounds and trying to hijack the obvious grief of relatives of the MAN deceased; shame on you for attemping to use their emotions to score points on a forum. As for the unprecednted event itself we have all learnt valuable lessons and pray that a similar accident does not happen again.
SAS/LIN.
Were you aware that a BA aircraft was cleared for take off but declined as the crew had noticed that the TCAS had not indicated that SAS was airborne? I agree that good and bad luck does raise its head occassionally but I would like to think that at BA our training and focus on operational integrity is such that we are prepared to deal with bad luck without having to rely on good luck. The simple fact is that "British Airways" has only had one hull loss in its history - in Kuwait during the Gulf War when the Iraqis had a pop at the empty aircraft. I hope that this continues.
C4
Obviously bad publicity but ask yourself 3 questions... i) if the makers were concerned about safety why did they withhold 'evidence' for over 7 months and allow drunk pilots to coninue flying? ii) re safety why were the film crew happy to board the airplane for return flights? iii) how many accidents have there been due to drunk pilots compared to fatigued pilots? As recent research in UK and US tiredness causes more road accidents than drunkeness. Surely then an investigation into dubious charter operations night flying there and back to the middle east.
Sabena
Whereas Hand Solo bears facts you state,"I merely passed on a couple of comments made by their fellow countrymen." Well why don't you just ask Joe Bloggs what he thinks about any operation in the UK, or better still don't bother asking and just assume what he will say - what a load of b******t!
B747/Penta Hotel
The B747c was notorious for occassionally hunting through the LOC, the crew were tired and got "landitus". However they did go around. The subsequent inquiry and handling of the crew in particular the Capt was not done well at all and he ended up paying the ultimate price - rest in peace you hurt no one.
B757/Athens
Unfortunately a tea-totaller who got a new command went out to celebrate, got drunk, couldn't handle it and f****d up. The crew intervened and the aircraft did not get airborne. For us that drink we have all made idiots of ourselves under the influence, sadly for this chap the first time for him was at work.
Water Allowance
How long is a LAX 10 hours perhaps, I don't know but the last JFK I did was 7hrs 48 mins. Bearing in mind you lose 500ml of water per hour of cruise and you cannot drink more than 1.5l I think that you would be severely dehydrated. Looking at my bottle of Highland Spring..."Most adults need to drink 8 glasses of water a day - only 1 in 10 do." and "A reduction of your daily requirements of water by 4-5% can reduce your concentration and performance by 20-30%" I think that you are also missing the point people are trying to make and that is there is constant erosion of our terms and conditions both major and minor, enough is enough.
We all await your response
Big Brutha:
Are you a pilot at all: I came out of flying training 40 years ago and have been flying 4-engined aircraft ever since - apart from nearly 8 years on a three-holer.
Dried-up prune: My wife would probably be the first to agree that I have more than a passing resemblence to a dried-up prune but that is not as a result of dehydration.
Knowledge: Yes, I have picked up some knowledge over the last 40 years otherwise I would not be alive today.
Self righteous: I don't think I am any more self righteous than any of the others who post on these forums.
Manager: I am not, never have been nor do I ever intend to be a manager. Mind you, I have met some very good and some very nice managers over the years - I have also met some who have been pretty useless and nasty with it!
Dehydration: See below.
Bucking Bronco:
I note that you are eagerly awaiting my reply so I do hope that I haven't kept you waiting too long.
411A: I have said it many times before, I am not in any way connected with the esteemed gentleman in Arizona. When Danny went on to the new system, my old nom de plume got lost and I keep appearing as JW411 which was my old password. I cannot be bothered to change it.
Shame on you: I do not feel any sense of shame at all. Hand Solo started this when he made his 25 years without a crash statement. Sadly, he did not say that dying on the ground didn't count. I thought it was rather insensitive of him to brush off the Manchester 737 tragedy as an "on ground INCIDENT" which gave the impression that it didn't really matter. I would have thought that it was at the very least an on ground ACCIDENT and a pretty tragic one at that. Once again, I stress that I do not point any blame at the operating crew. They did the best possible job in the circumstances and with the information they had available to them at the time. It was not me that trivialised the event.
TCAS at Linate: The BA crew displayed excellent airmanship by refusing the take-off clearance from ATC at Linate. Indeed, they should never have been given take-off clearance until the SAS MD80 had reported "airborne".
747/Penta: You are quite right. The captain paid the ultimate penalty and surely that was an avoidable tragedy. However, I don't think you can dismiss it totally by saying that the 747-100 had a habit of wandering around the localiser. Were they not attempting a Cat 3 approach when the whole crew were not qualified and the aircraft equipment was not up to snuff?
757/Athens: I had no idea that the new captain was a TT on his first night into the booze. That is very sad. I am sure that you are right in stating that the rest of the crew would have done something about it but wasn't it the receptionist at the hotel who sounded the first alarm bell by calling BA at the airport?
Dehydration: I note that your Highland Spring (there's posh) label tells you that most people don't drink enough water and that we should drink much more. Could it just possibly be that this exhortation is a commercial whose purpose is to get you to buy more Highland Spring?
Being serious now, I still could not put away 1.5 litres of H2O on a London to LAX flight. (It used to take us closer to 11 hours for we cruised at 0.82M). I used to drink mostly soda water or ordinary water but must confess to taking the odd coffee and Coca Cola which are, of course, very bad for you!
So were the cold beers in the hotel afterwards and the air-conditioning was less than helpful. I used to have to make a conscious effort to rehydrate before going flying. Ah well, none of us are perfect.
One interesting experiment that I got involved in in the Middle East; I used to have to sit in an aeroplane for about 2 hours at night while a bunch of co-pilots did touch and go landings etc. It was very hot and very humid and we could not pressurise the aeroplane for obvious reasons.
The aviation medics got us to record the volume of fluid (of any sort) that we drank in the following 24 hours. The average was a mind-blowing 16 pints after only 2 hours of this sort of flying.
Thought: I think SBA has asked the question but if you chaps don't like the responses that you are getting then why do you discuss bottles of water on a public forum? Would you not be better advised to stick to the BA forum and then we will all leave you in peace.
Finally: If you are looking for another reply then you will have to wait for I am going to commit aviation tomorrow and will be on the road for a week.
Are you a pilot at all: I came out of flying training 40 years ago and have been flying 4-engined aircraft ever since - apart from nearly 8 years on a three-holer.
Dried-up prune: My wife would probably be the first to agree that I have more than a passing resemblence to a dried-up prune but that is not as a result of dehydration.
Knowledge: Yes, I have picked up some knowledge over the last 40 years otherwise I would not be alive today.
Self righteous: I don't think I am any more self righteous than any of the others who post on these forums.
Manager: I am not, never have been nor do I ever intend to be a manager. Mind you, I have met some very good and some very nice managers over the years - I have also met some who have been pretty useless and nasty with it!
Dehydration: See below.
Bucking Bronco:
I note that you are eagerly awaiting my reply so I do hope that I haven't kept you waiting too long.
411A: I have said it many times before, I am not in any way connected with the esteemed gentleman in Arizona. When Danny went on to the new system, my old nom de plume got lost and I keep appearing as JW411 which was my old password. I cannot be bothered to change it.
Shame on you: I do not feel any sense of shame at all. Hand Solo started this when he made his 25 years without a crash statement. Sadly, he did not say that dying on the ground didn't count. I thought it was rather insensitive of him to brush off the Manchester 737 tragedy as an "on ground INCIDENT" which gave the impression that it didn't really matter. I would have thought that it was at the very least an on ground ACCIDENT and a pretty tragic one at that. Once again, I stress that I do not point any blame at the operating crew. They did the best possible job in the circumstances and with the information they had available to them at the time. It was not me that trivialised the event.
TCAS at Linate: The BA crew displayed excellent airmanship by refusing the take-off clearance from ATC at Linate. Indeed, they should never have been given take-off clearance until the SAS MD80 had reported "airborne".
747/Penta: You are quite right. The captain paid the ultimate penalty and surely that was an avoidable tragedy. However, I don't think you can dismiss it totally by saying that the 747-100 had a habit of wandering around the localiser. Were they not attempting a Cat 3 approach when the whole crew were not qualified and the aircraft equipment was not up to snuff?
757/Athens: I had no idea that the new captain was a TT on his first night into the booze. That is very sad. I am sure that you are right in stating that the rest of the crew would have done something about it but wasn't it the receptionist at the hotel who sounded the first alarm bell by calling BA at the airport?
Dehydration: I note that your Highland Spring (there's posh) label tells you that most people don't drink enough water and that we should drink much more. Could it just possibly be that this exhortation is a commercial whose purpose is to get you to buy more Highland Spring?
Being serious now, I still could not put away 1.5 litres of H2O on a London to LAX flight. (It used to take us closer to 11 hours for we cruised at 0.82M). I used to drink mostly soda water or ordinary water but must confess to taking the odd coffee and Coca Cola which are, of course, very bad for you!
So were the cold beers in the hotel afterwards and the air-conditioning was less than helpful. I used to have to make a conscious effort to rehydrate before going flying. Ah well, none of us are perfect.
One interesting experiment that I got involved in in the Middle East; I used to have to sit in an aeroplane for about 2 hours at night while a bunch of co-pilots did touch and go landings etc. It was very hot and very humid and we could not pressurise the aeroplane for obvious reasons.
The aviation medics got us to record the volume of fluid (of any sort) that we drank in the following 24 hours. The average was a mind-blowing 16 pints after only 2 hours of this sort of flying.
Thought: I think SBA has asked the question but if you chaps don't like the responses that you are getting then why do you discuss bottles of water on a public forum? Would you not be better advised to stick to the BA forum and then we will all leave you in peace.
Finally: If you are looking for another reply then you will have to wait for I am going to commit aviation tomorrow and will be on the road for a week.
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Thanks for the speedy response, I will have to research the Penta incident to ascertain your claim that the crew were not qualified but something I seriously doubt.
I think the MAN event has been aired enough and if you look at yours and Hand Solos views you are probably singing from the same sheet, just perhaps an error in choice of vocab.
WRT dehydration...quite possibly a commercial ploy by Highland Sprong but there are strict guidelines on what you can purport your product to deliver. Times have changed since you were a lad and Mr McDougal used to flog his amazing brain tonic (that cures all ailments) from his horse and cart.
Some independent websites to have a browse...
www.go.ednet.ns.ca/~larry/bsc/dehydrat.html
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/med...icles/0140.htm
...when you have the time of course!
I think the topic starter and the rest of us Nigels have every right to air our views on this forum, don't worry the BA forum has equally fiery views. I believe that it is a valid thread as some pilots out there working for other airlines may be happy/unhappy at this time. The whole water spiel is just serving as an example of what we have to put with; in other companies it may be no soft toilet roll I don't know until they air their views here.
Thank you
Bronco
PS As for me I am also off to commit aviation for a few days and will keep myself hydrated and on top form.
I think the MAN event has been aired enough and if you look at yours and Hand Solos views you are probably singing from the same sheet, just perhaps an error in choice of vocab.
WRT dehydration...quite possibly a commercial ploy by Highland Sprong but there are strict guidelines on what you can purport your product to deliver. Times have changed since you were a lad and Mr McDougal used to flog his amazing brain tonic (that cures all ailments) from his horse and cart.
Some independent websites to have a browse...
www.go.ednet.ns.ca/~larry/bsc/dehydrat.html
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/med...icles/0140.htm
...when you have the time of course!
I think the topic starter and the rest of us Nigels have every right to air our views on this forum, don't worry the BA forum has equally fiery views. I believe that it is a valid thread as some pilots out there working for other airlines may be happy/unhappy at this time. The whole water spiel is just serving as an example of what we have to put with; in other companies it may be no soft toilet roll I don't know until they air their views here.
Thank you
Bronco
PS As for me I am also off to commit aviation for a few days and will keep myself hydrated and on top form.
Last edited by Bucking Bronco; 13th Jul 2002 at 18:21.
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JW411,
Wasn't the Manchester incident British Airtours rather than British Airways ? How divorced the two companies were from each other, I can't remember. 411A, I think your'e on a hiding to nothing here and Bucking Bronco, W*****man, and Hand Solo are absolutely correct. The steady erosion of pay and conditions has to be of concern, and your blatant sympathy with the bean counters in selling us all further down the river is helping no-one.
Wasn't the Manchester incident British Airtours rather than British Airways ? How divorced the two companies were from each other, I can't remember. 411A, I think your'e on a hiding to nothing here and Bucking Bronco, W*****man, and Hand Solo are absolutely correct. The steady erosion of pay and conditions has to be of concern, and your blatant sympathy with the bean counters in selling us all further down the river is helping no-one.
Bucking Bronco:
I am on my way to bed and have just picked up your reply for which I thank you. Perhaps we understand one another a little bit better now?
Penta Incident: I am sure you will be able to retrieve it from the AAIB website. As far as I can remember they arrived back to a very foggy LHR (from Bahrain?) and the airfield was Cat III.
The F/O had not done the Cat III course. A discussion took place with BA management and it was decided that they should do it anyway. The autoland system did not work well or even self-test well and various autopilot channels kept falling out.
The G/A took place very close to the ground and not on top of the runway otherwise there would have been no problem.
I also seem to recall that the poor old F/O was suffering from Ghandi's revenge and should probably not have been talked into flying in the first place.
Nevertheless, the outcome from the captain's point of view was a real tragedy and I don't think he got the best possible help from anyone. Certainly he made an error of judgement but it was never revealed just how much the management staff on the ground were culpable in letting him (or even encouraging him) to make the approach in the first place.
Which reminds me of an interesting tale; I was going round the hold early one morning waiting for the RVR to get up to 300 metres so that I could make a Cat II approach. A BA aircraft was 1,000 feet above me.
Eventually I was given 300 metres RVR and started an approach.
The BA aircraft then asked to make an approach. "I thought you were waiting for 600 metres" said ATC. "We've just been called by the company and told that we are now Cat II qualified" said he.
I thought this to be an interesting statement but I wasn't half as interested as the CAA Ops Inspector sitting on my jump seat who was more than curious as to know how you can suddenly become Cat II qualified whilst going round the hold. To say that his pen was smoking would be an understatement! Sadly, I never did hear what the outcome was.
Choice of Vocab: Very important otherwise you will be badly misunderstood.
Dehydration: Until I got on to the three-holer, everything big that I had flown before had a humidifier system. This was usually a drip-feed from the domestic water supply into the air conditioning and it worked remarkably well.
Then I went on to the American 3-holer and it did not have such a system (but I didn't notice this amongst the welter of other more important ARB information).
One morning, after a flight to JFK, I was shaving in the mirror and suddenly noticed tiny flashing lights in the corner of my right eye. This was quite worrying but it went away very quickly and I very soon decided that it hadn't happened.
Next time it was my left eye - same conclusion. Then, one day it was BOTH eyes and that scared the hell out of me. By lucky chance my local GP was an ex-RAF aviation medicine man and the first question he asked was "is your aircraft fitted with a humidifier system"? "No" said I. "Then you are dehydrated" said he. He calculated that by the time we got to LAX the air in the cabin was only 7% humid. (For those of you who do not know, this is not good).
If you are badly dehydrated, the act of getting out of bed in the morning is enough to raise your blood pressure to very high levels and "little flashing lights" is a good indicator that you need some H2O.
Public Forum: You very definitely have every right to talk about your bottles of water on the public forums but you must also expect someone to take a swipe at you. I most certainly reserve the right to so do!
Enjoy your flying - I certainly will!
I am on my way to bed and have just picked up your reply for which I thank you. Perhaps we understand one another a little bit better now?
Penta Incident: I am sure you will be able to retrieve it from the AAIB website. As far as I can remember they arrived back to a very foggy LHR (from Bahrain?) and the airfield was Cat III.
The F/O had not done the Cat III course. A discussion took place with BA management and it was decided that they should do it anyway. The autoland system did not work well or even self-test well and various autopilot channels kept falling out.
The G/A took place very close to the ground and not on top of the runway otherwise there would have been no problem.
I also seem to recall that the poor old F/O was suffering from Ghandi's revenge and should probably not have been talked into flying in the first place.
Nevertheless, the outcome from the captain's point of view was a real tragedy and I don't think he got the best possible help from anyone. Certainly he made an error of judgement but it was never revealed just how much the management staff on the ground were culpable in letting him (or even encouraging him) to make the approach in the first place.
Which reminds me of an interesting tale; I was going round the hold early one morning waiting for the RVR to get up to 300 metres so that I could make a Cat II approach. A BA aircraft was 1,000 feet above me.
Eventually I was given 300 metres RVR and started an approach.
The BA aircraft then asked to make an approach. "I thought you were waiting for 600 metres" said ATC. "We've just been called by the company and told that we are now Cat II qualified" said he.
I thought this to be an interesting statement but I wasn't half as interested as the CAA Ops Inspector sitting on my jump seat who was more than curious as to know how you can suddenly become Cat II qualified whilst going round the hold. To say that his pen was smoking would be an understatement! Sadly, I never did hear what the outcome was.
Choice of Vocab: Very important otherwise you will be badly misunderstood.
Dehydration: Until I got on to the three-holer, everything big that I had flown before had a humidifier system. This was usually a drip-feed from the domestic water supply into the air conditioning and it worked remarkably well.
Then I went on to the American 3-holer and it did not have such a system (but I didn't notice this amongst the welter of other more important ARB information).
One morning, after a flight to JFK, I was shaving in the mirror and suddenly noticed tiny flashing lights in the corner of my right eye. This was quite worrying but it went away very quickly and I very soon decided that it hadn't happened.
Next time it was my left eye - same conclusion. Then, one day it was BOTH eyes and that scared the hell out of me. By lucky chance my local GP was an ex-RAF aviation medicine man and the first question he asked was "is your aircraft fitted with a humidifier system"? "No" said I. "Then you are dehydrated" said he. He calculated that by the time we got to LAX the air in the cabin was only 7% humid. (For those of you who do not know, this is not good).
If you are badly dehydrated, the act of getting out of bed in the morning is enough to raise your blood pressure to very high levels and "little flashing lights" is a good indicator that you need some H2O.
Public Forum: You very definitely have every right to talk about your bottles of water on the public forums but you must also expect someone to take a swipe at you. I most certainly reserve the right to so do!
Enjoy your flying - I certainly will!
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Hello to you all,
As 'Head of tea pots' at BA I would just like to add my support to my colleagues on the flight deck.I thought I would communicate my views via the forum to help bring back CRM.
This is because since the locked door policy CRM these days is about as much use as the condom and the pill for a couple trying for children.
I feel at BA I earn a wage that justifies the job I do....
Serve tea&coffee,put out fires,medical help,evac an aircraft in 90 secs and bring back people to fly with us.
HOWEVER........my colleagues at the front are well qualfied,highly trained and at the end of the day can save my a*s and all the others.
To that end I feel that it is only fair they earn equal to their counterparts in 'Oneworld' e.g. Iberia who earn substantially more for somewhat less !!!!.
They are not asking for anything more than they deserve and
I sincerely hope on this occasion,regardless of the financial position of BA that management understands that unless they pay the going rate there are many airlines out there BA pilots can leave and go to other carriers paying higher saleries. BA ........beware!!!.
NJR.(Bacardi&Diet Coke loads of ice and lemon).
To help you chill out visit:www.worldairlinephotography.co.uk
As 'Head of tea pots' at BA I would just like to add my support to my colleagues on the flight deck.I thought I would communicate my views via the forum to help bring back CRM.
This is because since the locked door policy CRM these days is about as much use as the condom and the pill for a couple trying for children.
I feel at BA I earn a wage that justifies the job I do....
Serve tea&coffee,put out fires,medical help,evac an aircraft in 90 secs and bring back people to fly with us.
HOWEVER........my colleagues at the front are well qualfied,highly trained and at the end of the day can save my a*s and all the others.
To that end I feel that it is only fair they earn equal to their counterparts in 'Oneworld' e.g. Iberia who earn substantially more for somewhat less !!!!.
They are not asking for anything more than they deserve and
I sincerely hope on this occasion,regardless of the financial position of BA that management understands that unless they pay the going rate there are many airlines out there BA pilots can leave and go to other carriers paying higher saleries. BA ........beware!!!.
NJR.(Bacardi&Diet Coke loads of ice and lemon).
To help you chill out visit:www.worldairlinephotography.co.uk
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If BA pilots had any moral backbone,they would have made the management stand down over the appaling treatment of Capt Clapson.By chosing to look the other way,they displayed a sickening heartlessness or was it just apathy?Now you want to strike over money...nobody should be rewarded for cowardice.
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Aaah nothing like a bit of crass stupidity to liven up a debate. Exactly how do your suggest BA pilots could force the resignation of BA management? By writing a strongly worded letter? By getting in a huff and coordinating an illegal work-to-rule that would see BALPA assets seized? Get real, if such a utopian option was available in BA all the staff would have rid themselves of all the management a long time ago and awarded themselves the pay savings. Don't waste the Pprune bandwidth until you have something useful to say.
Mistrust in Management
Rananim,
A completely meaningless post, Hand Solo says it all.
NoJacketsRequired,
Thank you for your support.
To everybody else out there,
This poll, whilst useful, does not accurately represent the feeelings of BA Flight Crew. The poll on the private BA forum at the moment stands at about 96 to 4. I didn't ask exactly the same question, but near enough is good enough.
To LCG & Skippy,
Look out because we really do mean business this time !
Regards
Exeng
A completely meaningless post, Hand Solo says it all.
NoJacketsRequired,
Thank you for your support.
To everybody else out there,
This poll, whilst useful, does not accurately represent the feeelings of BA Flight Crew. The poll on the private BA forum at the moment stands at about 96 to 4. I didn't ask exactly the same question, but near enough is good enough.
To LCG & Skippy,
Look out because we really do mean business this time !
Regards
Exeng
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Why does management screw pilots? Because they can. I doubt any pilots will cross below their bottom line whilst doing their job. Lowering your productivity in responce to decreasing reward is a luxury pilots do not have (though a natural human response). The flying game, especially airlines is NOT what it once was. There is not the unity amoungst peers nor the mutual goals and respects for different roles. Probably a reflection of a materialistic, greedy world. Never the less, yes one can leave the game, but the majority of concerns voiced here are very real, and only come accross as whingeing as they don't have the power to change the way it is going. Why advertise....flying is magic.
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Hand Solo,
Stand down =back off,change ones decision....NOT RESIGN.
You misread and misquotedme....perhaps you'rethe waste of bandwidth...
If your union doesnt have the power to tell the management when its treating its flightcrew in a criminal fashion and ENFORCE A REDRESS then you shoud change yourunion.Capt Clapson's treatment was a disgrace...you obviously do things differently on your side of the pond.
Stand down =back off,change ones decision....NOT RESIGN.
You misread and misquotedme....perhaps you'rethe waste of bandwidth...
If your union doesnt have the power to tell the management when its treating its flightcrew in a criminal fashion and ENFORCE A REDRESS then you shoud change yourunion.Capt Clapson's treatment was a disgrace...you obviously do things differently on your side of the pond.
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In the English language (thats not Microsoft English) 'stand down' means resign. I think pressing for a ballot on strike action in support of Capt Clapson was a reasonable step for our union. Sadly it became a moot point, firstly because the union-backed case for unfair dismissal was won and finally because, tragically, Capt Clapson died very shortly after this case.
I would respectfully suggest that you:
1) Learn to use the English language correctly.
2) Refrain from commenting on matters that you have practically no knowledge or understanding of.
I would respectfully suggest that you:
1) Learn to use the English language correctly.
2) Refrain from commenting on matters that you have practically no knowledge or understanding of.
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Surely the solution to BA's problems is out there and awaiting gainful employment right now.
What you guys need is a Chief Exec who knows the business, BA itself, is known and respected by the Board, has a tip-top proven track record in the industry, is respected and trusted by the City, and who will motivate and be respected by the staff.
Her name is Barbara Cassani.
What you guys need is a Chief Exec who knows the business, BA itself, is known and respected by the Board, has a tip-top proven track record in the industry, is respected and trusted by the City, and who will motivate and be respected by the staff.
Her name is Barbara Cassani.
