Monarch in turbulence
Joined: Sep 2009
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: UK
My understanding from being in the same position as you but with a different company is that once you start to draw your pension you are protected and the pension arrangements cannot be changed without your agreement. If anyone knows different from experience or knowledge I would also be interested.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2000
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"You will have been receiving a pension from your scheme before your former employer went bust.
If you were beyond the scheme’s normal retirement age when your employer went bust, the Pension Protection Fund will generally pay 100 per cent level of compensation, which means we will generally pay you the same amount in compensation when your scheme enters the PPF.
Your payments relating to pensionable service from 5 April 1997 will then rise in line with inflation each year, subject to a maximum of 2.5 per cent a year. Payments relating to service before that date will not increase.
This information may also apply if you retired through ill-health or if you are receiving a pension in relation to someone who has died."
If you were beyond the scheme’s normal retirement age when your employer went bust, the Pension Protection Fund will generally pay 100 per cent level of compensation, which means we will generally pay you the same amount in compensation when your scheme enters the PPF.
Your payments relating to pensionable service from 5 April 1997 will then rise in line with inflation each year, subject to a maximum of 2.5 per cent a year. Payments relating to service before that date will not increase.
This information may also apply if you retired through ill-health or if you are receiving a pension in relation to someone who has died."
Uncle Pete
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Frodsham Cheshire
There's no getting away from the fact that legislation should be in place to safeguard the individuals' pensions and not for want of a better term allow companies to 'turn the tap off' when the going gets rough.
Yes, FANS is correct about the PPF but it must be appreciated that with 3% inflation it has been calculated that your pension is worth half in twenty years time. The money you've paid in long-term to cover this eventuality simply disappears into the coffers of somewhere, I know not where.
Been there, done it with bmi! There were no warning ever given about the security of our scheme until steps were taken by certain parties to ensure. it's eventual demise.
Good luck to all of you.
Yes, FANS is correct about the PPF but it must be appreciated that with 3% inflation it has been calculated that your pension is worth half in twenty years time. The money you've paid in long-term to cover this eventuality simply disappears into the coffers of somewhere, I know not where.
Been there, done it with bmi! There were no warning ever given about the security of our scheme until steps were taken by certain parties to ensure. it's eventual demise.
Good luck to all of you.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2000
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The PPF is a massive help compared to the Maxwell days.
That said, inflation is critical to a pension -particularly when the government is trying to inflate its way out of the debt issues.
Ultimately, you have a company that legally promised its workers a consideration, and it is now seeking to walk away from that in whichever manner it can.
That is one reason why I find management's behaviour a disgrace.
Also consider this - the PE houses looking to invest will want to make 5 - 10x their money on such an investment....
That said, inflation is critical to a pension -particularly when the government is trying to inflate its way out of the debt issues.
Ultimately, you have a company that legally promised its workers a consideration, and it is now seeking to walk away from that in whichever manner it can.
That is one reason why I find management's behaviour a disgrace.
Also consider this - the PE houses looking to invest will want to make 5 - 10x their money on such an investment....
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
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From: London,England
Lufthansa even topped up the money paid into the PPF post sale to ensure members got all or close to their projected benefits.
Good luck to all you Monarch pensioners who have paid in for years, I feel for you.
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: England
There are I understand MPL license holders with less than 1500hrs in MON just as there were in Flybe during their recent crisis when pilots were laid off.
MPL had only been going a couple of years and already there are a couple of participating airlines which have needed to lay off pilots whilst using the scheme. I think it is unacceptable and the CAA should be ashamed of allowing a scheme which indentures new pilots to businesses which no matter how well known or long established are proven to be financially precarious. By which I mean every airline in the UK.
It has been related to me that Carolyn McCall has in conversation alluded that ex-easyJet cadets now discarded by MON may be welcome to return to EZY subject to satisfactory training records. Good luck to all during what must be a massively stressful time.
MPL had only been going a couple of years and already there are a couple of participating airlines which have needed to lay off pilots whilst using the scheme. I think it is unacceptable and the CAA should be ashamed of allowing a scheme which indentures new pilots to businesses which no matter how well known or long established are proven to be financially precarious. By which I mean every airline in the UK.
It has been related to me that Carolyn McCall has in conversation alluded that ex-easyJet cadets now discarded by MON may be welcome to return to EZY subject to satisfactory training records. Good luck to all during what must be a massively stressful time.
Joined: Jul 2013
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From: United Kingdom
@jm926 - There certainly are - 2 groups of 6 if I am not mistaken, both from CTC. The last intake of CTC Monarch wings, who have just finished their flight training in New Zealand, have been dropped by the airline and taken on by easyJet from what I've heard. 
Joined: Jul 2012
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From: At home
MPL
Regarding MPL guys. Their main concern is the fact they'll be getting dumped into the market with low hours. The union have given us more specific information regarding the status of their licences.
The rest of us are just crossing our fingers that the company survives and they'll be minimum demotions/redundancies.
Does make me think I should have stayed in my last business. My last company (out of aviation) has grown from 50 employees to 200 and increased turnover by £40m in five years.
Flying planes for a living is comical at times!
The rest of us are just crossing our fingers that the company survives and they'll be minimum demotions/redundancies.
Does make me think I should have stayed in my last business. My last company (out of aviation) has grown from 50 employees to 200 and increased turnover by £40m in five years.
Flying planes for a living is comical at times!
Joined: Dec 2013
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From: UK
Well, encouraging to hear rumours of easyJet accepting applications from their former cadets. One of the big risks of MPL, but at least it sounds like those guys mid way through training won't be completely hung out to dry.
I'm sure there are many more Monarch guys with a lot of uncertainty ahead. I work for a competitor but it's nonetheless awful to hear the news about their restructuring.
All the very best to the guys affected....
I'm sure there are many more Monarch guys with a lot of uncertainty ahead. I work for a competitor but it's nonetheless awful to hear the news about their restructuring.
All the very best to the guys affected....
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: BHX
Good luck all you guys at Monarch. Nothing good ever comes from an airline struggling or folding. Managements elsewhere use it as a reason to screw their own workforce and drive down industry terms and conditions. Here's hoping a good rescue package can be put together 
easyJet Moderator
Joined: Sep 2013
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From: Schloss Neuschwanstein
JM926 - I would not hold your breath over easyJet accepting former cadets as I am told that is not the case. I think the CEO was asked in a brief conversation on the flight deck about the issue and gave a generally positive reply, which had a caveat of 'subject to a good training record'. That clearly includes a good attitude. A number of those guys left hating easyJet, and were very vocal about it. They felt they were working for a rubbish company and Monarch offered a 'proper' contract and treated their staff so much better. They only good thing easyJet had done for them was teach them to fly an Airbus and they could not wait to leave. Most companies do not like being told by foolish young people with no life experience that they are a bunch of losers - easyJet are no exception. These were young guys from CTC who had been given the opportunity of a lifetime by coming to work for one of Europe's biggest and most stable companies, flying brand new Airbuses all over Europe. Why would easyJet take back people with a proven track record of complaining when there are literally thousands of other pilots desperate to join and who will just be incredibly grateful for the opportunity?
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Put out to graze
Have to agree with The Count. The more vociferous ones were a pain in the ar$e and it was good to see them go.
Those with a bit more maturity and dignity accepted that, at the time, there was a better offer on the table and left with dignity; I suspect they will be the ones Davina is referring to.
I never understood why some were so disparaging about easy, after all they knew exactly what they were signing up to, nobody held a gun to their head and I'm pretty sure such personal objections weren't voiced at the interview!
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, eh?
Those with a bit more maturity and dignity accepted that, at the time, there was a better offer on the table and left with dignity; I suspect they will be the ones Davina is referring to.
I never understood why some were so disparaging about easy, after all they knew exactly what they were signing up to, nobody held a gun to their head and I'm pretty sure such personal objections weren't voiced at the interview!
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, eh?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2000
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These were the cadets that were complaining vociferously about low T&Cs at EZY, but didn't want to acknowledge that the only reason they were in the RHS given their zero experience, was because of £$.
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Earth
I told many they were making a huge mistake, but got told once or twice I didn't know what I was talking about and Monarch were on to big things, but hey what do I know, only been flying 20yrs. One cadet put on FB good riddance EJ shove your spirit up your arse, that was only around 6 moths ago, wonder what they're thinking now as i'm sure they will be the first to go.
Now they did sign up to it and knew the deal with EJ, plus they were getting lots of experience on a popular type. Maybe they should have tried the way it was years ago when you had to instruct for a few years earning peanuts before getting into a airline and working your way up.
Anyway I hope Monarch pull through and I wouldn't wish the threat of redundancy on anyone. Good luck to all.
Now they did sign up to it and knew the deal with EJ, plus they were getting lots of experience on a popular type. Maybe they should have tried the way it was years ago when you had to instruct for a few years earning peanuts before getting into a airline and working your way up.
Anyway I hope Monarch pull through and I wouldn't wish the threat of redundancy on anyone. Good luck to all.
Joined: Apr 2014
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From: Miles from where I want to be.
So Davina reckons the those who fled to MON are coming back? Is that the same Davina who claims cabin crew earn £40k? I wouldn't hold my breath, but stranger things have happened at the Big Easy.
Joined: Jan 2014
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From: Crawley
Maybe we can just for a second or so forget MPL CTC EZY and get back on topic.
Two words to those "low only jet experience" guys caught up in a ezy/Monarch dilemma or MPL and no job
CAVEAT EMPTOR
and two words to those further into their careers and now up against it - I've been where you are it's not pleasant
GOOD LUCK
Two words to those "low only jet experience" guys caught up in a ezy/Monarch dilemma or MPL and no job
CAVEAT EMPTOR
and two words to those further into their careers and now up against it - I've been where you are it's not pleasant
GOOD LUCK
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 238
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From: London
I don't suppose many of the ex EZY guys at Monarch will loose too much sleep about not returning to EZY as nearly all them are heading for BA!
The people at Monarch who will suffer the most are the experienced F/Os who don't have the protection of CTC, nearly every door is closed to us and we will end up in the Middle East whether we like it or not. We are also slightly older and on the whole have wives, children and mortgages to worry about, and not just concerned with paying off a training loan.
The people at Monarch who will suffer the most are the experienced F/Os who don't have the protection of CTC, nearly every door is closed to us and we will end up in the Middle East whether we like it or not. We are also slightly older and on the whole have wives, children and mortgages to worry about, and not just concerned with paying off a training loan.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,909
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From: England
Proper careers are protected by industry regulators and unions/lobby groups who help to hammer out those regulations. Proper careers guarantee those with experience; the most to lose and the least to gain from unemployment, the right to further employability. The recruitment preferences of our airlines has led to a system where one's experience doing the job works directly against one's employability. How obscenely strange is that?