Stop bashing "P2F"
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
From: The Kitchen
Bribery - noun
Crime of giving a benefit (e.g., money) in order to influence the judgement or conduct of a person in a position of trust (e.g., an official or witness). Accepting a bribe also constitutes a crime.
Crime of giving a benefit (e.g., money) in order to influence the judgement or conduct of a person in a position of trust (e.g., an official or witness). Accepting a bribe also constitutes a crime.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: UK
That's true Newb.
I remember when bonding started in the seventies, I was horrified and thought it would never catch on.
Then paying for a type rating, I was horrified and thought it would never catch on.
Then paying for Line Training - WTF??
It probably has some way to go yet - buying a command? Selling your job to the highest bidder on EBAY? God knows...
I presume it must be something to do with capitalism, but as someone once said, it's the unacceptable face of capitalism
Back to the opening post - it's a wind up. The chap would be very easily identifiable in EZY - surely no-one could be that stupid! And we've all fallen for it!
It all makes me so grateful at how very lucky I've been. 10 types and never paid for a rating. And (I know it's been said before) never did a days work in my life.
I remember when bonding started in the seventies, I was horrified and thought it would never catch on.
Then paying for a type rating, I was horrified and thought it would never catch on.
Then paying for Line Training - WTF??
It probably has some way to go yet - buying a command? Selling your job to the highest bidder on EBAY? God knows...
I presume it must be something to do with capitalism, but as someone once said, it's the unacceptable face of capitalism
Back to the opening post - it's a wind up. The chap would be very easily identifiable in EZY - surely no-one could be that stupid! And we've all fallen for it!
It all makes me so grateful at how very lucky I've been. 10 types and never paid for a rating. And (I know it's been said before) never did a days work in my life.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 184
Likes: 25
From: hector's house
JW
Your son deserves a stimulating and fulfilling career in flying with as many happy memories as you have.
As do we all.
I just can't help thinking that recently, we've all been scammed.
Your son can look to you for inspiration and advice, but spare a thought for those who are out of work and don't have any useful contacts, I hear from the new FOs I fly with that there are a fair number of recent FATPLs who haven't found a position yet, even after a year of looking.
Some training companies guarantee a job for you at the end of the course, but don't tell you what the job is until the last minute and you still have to pay to have the type put on your licence and it may be a single pilot position in the boonies (Africa) and if you turn it down, there goes your "guarantee".
It sounds exciting, but it's not for everyone.
Your son deserves a stimulating and fulfilling career in flying with as many happy memories as you have.
As do we all.
I just can't help thinking that recently, we've all been scammed.
Your son can look to you for inspiration and advice, but spare a thought for those who are out of work and don't have any useful contacts, I hear from the new FOs I fly with that there are a fair number of recent FATPLs who haven't found a position yet, even after a year of looking.
Some training companies guarantee a job for you at the end of the course, but don't tell you what the job is until the last minute and you still have to pay to have the type put on your licence and it may be a single pilot position in the boonies (Africa) and if you turn it down, there goes your "guarantee".
It sounds exciting, but it's not for everyone.
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Yeah it´s the slippery slope.
Someone tries.
Others follow.
And it becomes the norm.
The end result is not pretty in some of the companies where pilots have collected a large amount of debt to afford the whole thing in the first place. And some guys cannot even afford to call in sick some months when the hours are low and they manage to catch a flu or cold when they are rostered to fly.
Someone tries.
Others follow.
And it becomes the norm.
The end result is not pretty in some of the companies where pilots have collected a large amount of debt to afford the whole thing in the first place. And some guys cannot even afford to call in sick some months when the hours are low and they manage to catch a flu or cold when they are rostered to fly.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
From: uk
Part of the problem with P2F is that the traditional route for pilots. Instructor, turboprop, regional jet then large has all but disappeared.
There are plenty of pilots at my company (turboprop outfit) who would love to move onto jets but the thought of paying puts them off, these are pilots with 1000s of hours who have learned their trade and have a quality that I believe the jet companies should value.
Experience seems to count for nothing unless you have the pounds to back you up, it's all about the money and that's sad.
There are plenty of pilots at my company (turboprop outfit) who would love to move onto jets but the thought of paying puts them off, these are pilots with 1000s of hours who have learned their trade and have a quality that I believe the jet companies should value.
Experience seems to count for nothing unless you have the pounds to back you up, it's all about the money and that's sad.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,103
Likes: 5
From: Chabanais, France
Depatrai in post #42 hits the nail on the head. What we have now are some people coming through the system to RHS of jet transport aircraft who would, had they gone the military or fully funded by the airline cadet scheme, failed the 'Biggin Hill' aptitude element, or failed to go solo, or having got to a course then got 'chopped' for failing to reach a minimum standard. All these failures, due to their access to money, are now, or will , one day, be sitting in the pilot's seat on an airliner and that is truly frightening, not to mention the additional load it places on the captain.
By the way, any bets this thread was started by the OP's father?
By the way, any bets this thread was started by the OP's father?
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
From: lancs.UK
Ref. Regulation 6's post and others.
back in the day, an airline would have invested a large wedge of cash in training a pilot, only to see their investment walk away to another employerand cash-in on the "free" training......manual trades had apprenticeships...one worked for peanuts and was taught on the job, by a skilled colleague, who's productivity consequently suffered. If the apprentice was bright ,willing and industrious, the lost productivity was recouped and hopefully a profit made (otherwise, why bother employing apprentices?...it's a business, not a charity or school!)
At the end of the apprenticeship, the newly-qualified tradesman could expecta goodly payrise....or, if business was quiet, the employer, having fulfilled his obligation, let the worker go.
So , you see, nothing has really changed....the bond stopped the trainee shafting the trainer...the t/r is really no different to the engineer/mechanic who has to provide his own toolkit (OK, a motor-mechanic can get a good kit for under £ 10K, but he doesn't get anything like a Pilot's wage and works around 1700 hours a year)
Manufacturers do provide training-courses, these are usually only a couple of days and are not cheap, yes the employer usually puts a loyal employee forward and picks up the tab.....the qualification is, like a t/r , only of any value in that franchise....leave the employer, you are then hunting for a job in another location, or start again,on the path of learning the specifics of a new type.
P2F, I can see as an investment for someone young and capable, but it has to be borne in mind that the training investment should be reflected in the wage, spread over ~15 years (don't forget the loss of interest on that capital, or that which you'll pay if you can borrow it.
The elitism has gone out of flying, anyone who is willing to front the money,can train to be a pilot....wether their license will earn them enough to make it a good or wise investment, is another issue.
back in the day, an airline would have invested a large wedge of cash in training a pilot, only to see their investment walk away to another employerand cash-in on the "free" training......manual trades had apprenticeships...one worked for peanuts and was taught on the job, by a skilled colleague, who's productivity consequently suffered. If the apprentice was bright ,willing and industrious, the lost productivity was recouped and hopefully a profit made (otherwise, why bother employing apprentices?...it's a business, not a charity or school!)
At the end of the apprenticeship, the newly-qualified tradesman could expecta goodly payrise....or, if business was quiet, the employer, having fulfilled his obligation, let the worker go.
So , you see, nothing has really changed....the bond stopped the trainee shafting the trainer...the t/r is really no different to the engineer/mechanic who has to provide his own toolkit (OK, a motor-mechanic can get a good kit for under £ 10K, but he doesn't get anything like a Pilot's wage and works around 1700 hours a year)
Manufacturers do provide training-courses, these are usually only a couple of days and are not cheap, yes the employer usually puts a loyal employee forward and picks up the tab.....the qualification is, like a t/r , only of any value in that franchise....leave the employer, you are then hunting for a job in another location, or start again,on the path of learning the specifics of a new type.
P2F, I can see as an investment for someone young and capable, but it has to be borne in mind that the training investment should be reflected in the wage, spread over ~15 years (don't forget the loss of interest on that capital, or that which you'll pay if you can borrow it.
The elitism has gone out of flying, anyone who is willing to front the money,can train to be a pilot....wether their license will earn them enough to make it a good or wise investment, is another issue.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,103
Likes: 5
From: Chabanais, France
The elitism has gone out of flying
Possibly, but please don't fall into the trap of thinking that enough money up front will cover any shortfall in aptitude and an acceptable level of flying skills. With P2F this essential safety net has been removed.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 938
Likes: 0
From: United Kingdom
It is possible that the thread starter is 19 and a pilot at easyJet, but I am a TRE there and I have never met a 19 year-old pilot flying for us. The youngest I have ever met was 21 and exceptionally mature - a great guy. The mere fact the bloke thought to start a thread like says he is not mature and is either a troll or a berk. Given the vast number of vastly superior, unemployed young pilots, I would be most disappointed to find this guy actually works for us - I suspect, however, he does not.
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
From: UK
Elitism may have gone out in some ways, but not others. While more new pilots came in over the last two decades from working class back grounds, recent trends are showing a move towards the monnied again. Not necessarily the old money, which may have had a code of conduct, too, but the new money with spoilt kids who have never been told "no".
So, while many new cadets are capable and have good maturity and attitudes, we also see those with poor aptitude or attitude. Unfortunately, what we don't see is those candidates with outstanding aptitude and attitude but working class parents anymore. P2F is a selection system based on financial resources, placing suitability second.
For those who console themselves with regarding it as a necessity in the modern world, it is not. If no-one did it, then it wouldn't exist. It is a symbol of the modern "want it now" culture of greed outstripping common sense. It is also a symbol of innate ego that beginners are willing to cough up so much in order to go straight onto jets, not deigning to get their hands dirty on smaller aircraft.
I get it that we have now ended up at a point where most have to TRSS. I don't like it, and regard myself as fortunate to have been in the right places at the right times to avoid it, even though it was already becoming the norm as I came up. And I see the argument that P2F will be the norm like TRSS is. However, if nobody had agreed to TRSS 15 years ago, then it wouldn't exist now. Just because my generation had too many people willing to fund training departments, that doesn't excuse the new generation doing the same (or their parents who should know better). There is a distinction between TRSS and P2F, too - paying for the rating and training is one thing, but paying to work? Really?
So, while many new cadets are capable and have good maturity and attitudes, we also see those with poor aptitude or attitude. Unfortunately, what we don't see is those candidates with outstanding aptitude and attitude but working class parents anymore. P2F is a selection system based on financial resources, placing suitability second.
For those who console themselves with regarding it as a necessity in the modern world, it is not. If no-one did it, then it wouldn't exist. It is a symbol of the modern "want it now" culture of greed outstripping common sense. It is also a symbol of innate ego that beginners are willing to cough up so much in order to go straight onto jets, not deigning to get their hands dirty on smaller aircraft.
I get it that we have now ended up at a point where most have to TRSS. I don't like it, and regard myself as fortunate to have been in the right places at the right times to avoid it, even though it was already becoming the norm as I came up. And I see the argument that P2F will be the norm like TRSS is. However, if nobody had agreed to TRSS 15 years ago, then it wouldn't exist now. Just because my generation had too many people willing to fund training departments, that doesn't excuse the new generation doing the same (or their parents who should know better). There is a distinction between TRSS and P2F, too - paying for the rating and training is one thing, but paying to work? Really?
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 77
Likes: 2
From: Crawley
OAA/CTC
Id be very interested to know what the percentage of new hires on jets in the UK come from OAA/CTC each year and what percentage come from the experienced/type rated/military/turboprop/instructor ranks
Is there any way of finding this out?
Is there any way of finding this out?
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
From: UK
"19 and Flying a Jet" eh? The screen name doesn't indicate much imagination now, does it?
Some of the self financed trainee guys are good, and keen. Some are not.
Like this guy the other day, at FL350 During a quiet time ...
Me: "So how did you get into flying then?"
Him: "Well... I was lying in bed one morning, around 1130, and I thought it was time I did something with my life, so I went and borrowed £120,000 from mother, and here I am!"
Accompanied by supercilious grin.
I couldn't decide which of his eyes to stick my pen into.
He wasn't keen, he wasn't competent, he was crap. He wasn't bothered whether he passed or failed.
In the olden days, he might just have been weeded out at an earlier stage.
Like I said, I've no problem with keen guys willing to learn, but the type above are becoming more prevalent.
Some of the self financed trainee guys are good, and keen. Some are not.
Like this guy the other day, at FL350 During a quiet time ...
Me: "So how did you get into flying then?"
Him: "Well... I was lying in bed one morning, around 1130, and I thought it was time I did something with my life, so I went and borrowed £120,000 from mother, and here I am!"
Accompanied by supercilious grin.
I couldn't decide which of his eyes to stick my pen into.
He wasn't keen, he wasn't competent, he was crap. He wasn't bothered whether he passed or failed.
In the olden days, he might just have been weeded out at an earlier stage.
Like I said, I've no problem with keen guys willing to learn, but the type above are becoming more prevalent.
again. He quit easy and joined NASA this morning.
