Is BALPA fit for purpose
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Itch
What an unbelievably self centred pile of
!
Essentially you are saying that FOs lives are already crap so it's not such a big deal to crap on them.
If I were a Flybe FO I would be rubbing my hands with glee at the prospect of the Senior captains getting it in the neck if they have attitudes like yours.
Senior people are less cost efficient than junior people.
They do no more work for more money.
No brainer, ditch the senior people.
The positive side of this is the death of the seniority system like senior target says.
What an unbelievably self centred pile of
!Essentially you are saying that FOs lives are already crap so it's not such a big deal to crap on them.
If I were a Flybe FO I would be rubbing my hands with glee at the prospect of the Senior captains getting it in the neck if they have attitudes like yours.
Senior people are less cost efficient than junior people.
They do no more work for more money.
No brainer, ditch the senior people.
The positive side of this is the death of the seniority system like senior target says.
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I don't think anyone has disagreed with the fact that management are financially motivated to find the least cost solution. So the question is
Have Flybe management chosen the correct path.
Consider what I shall be seeking compensation for.
I will go from a Captains salary of £80,000 to a first officers salary of £50,000 and will be on that for lets say 5 years but it could easily be 10 years if I follow the companies guidance and am lucky enough to get a job with Monarch. That's a loss of earnings of between £150,000 to £300,000 and that's assuming I get a job straight away.
When I moved house a couple of years ago it cost about £40,000. Chances are I will have to relocate.
Then there is my wife's job, she has a good job but may not be able to do it if I have to relocate.
Then there is the stress that we are all being, unfairly, subjected to now. I for one have not had more than 5 hours sleep a night since this started!
And last but definitely not least are the court costs.
Multiply that lot by 150 and it adds up to............ A LOT
Now compare that to the costs involved in following the policy
Well to be fair we need to see the retraining and relocation costs from the company but many of us have Dash ratings already and as for published relocation costs, they are no way near what I shall be seeking compensation for!
Then lets look at the people who would be made redundant.
Most will be First Officers at the beginning of their careers. they will have read the redundancy policy and could not really claim to be surprised that the company followed the policy.
They will probably get a better if not similarly paid job else where so little or no lost earnings
They are probably in rented accommodation as they like to move around progressing their careers so moving costs are minimal.
They will probably get a job more quickly too. I guess most employers looking for First Officers would favour experienced FO's over experienced Captains.
They too will suffer the stress, I know that, I lost my FO's position and it sucked! But looking back I was lucky not to have a mortgage, wife and kids and an elderly parent to support!
Then there is the question of whether they would want to take the company to court. Its a small industry and when your working your way up do you want the trouble maker label? Some will and some will not.
As for me, my blood is boiling as are many of my colleagues. I'm prepared to fight this all the way, even if it costs me my career!
To those that say "If company policy doesn't match the law it's not worth the paper it's written on" I disagree.
If it were that simple there would not be a legal industry!
There are issues over custom and practise, the fact that LIFO was applied in January this year and age discrimination to mention just a few.
On age discrimination, bear in mind, new pilots are of all ages thanks to age discrimination legislation, not so for the most senior.
So are 150 senior pilot tribunals, through Balpa or privately, really going to be cheaper than following the written policies? I think not!
In fact I think the management's present course is taking a hell of a risk with share holders money!
Have Flybe management chosen the correct path.
Consider what I shall be seeking compensation for.
I will go from a Captains salary of £80,000 to a first officers salary of £50,000 and will be on that for lets say 5 years but it could easily be 10 years if I follow the companies guidance and am lucky enough to get a job with Monarch. That's a loss of earnings of between £150,000 to £300,000 and that's assuming I get a job straight away.
When I moved house a couple of years ago it cost about £40,000. Chances are I will have to relocate.
Then there is my wife's job, she has a good job but may not be able to do it if I have to relocate.
Then there is the stress that we are all being, unfairly, subjected to now. I for one have not had more than 5 hours sleep a night since this started!
And last but definitely not least are the court costs.
Multiply that lot by 150 and it adds up to............ A LOT
Now compare that to the costs involved in following the policy
Well to be fair we need to see the retraining and relocation costs from the company but many of us have Dash ratings already and as for published relocation costs, they are no way near what I shall be seeking compensation for!
Then lets look at the people who would be made redundant.
Most will be First Officers at the beginning of their careers. they will have read the redundancy policy and could not really claim to be surprised that the company followed the policy.
They will probably get a better if not similarly paid job else where so little or no lost earnings
They are probably in rented accommodation as they like to move around progressing their careers so moving costs are minimal.
They will probably get a job more quickly too. I guess most employers looking for First Officers would favour experienced FO's over experienced Captains.
They too will suffer the stress, I know that, I lost my FO's position and it sucked! But looking back I was lucky not to have a mortgage, wife and kids and an elderly parent to support!
Then there is the question of whether they would want to take the company to court. Its a small industry and when your working your way up do you want the trouble maker label? Some will and some will not.
As for me, my blood is boiling as are many of my colleagues. I'm prepared to fight this all the way, even if it costs me my career!
To those that say "If company policy doesn't match the law it's not worth the paper it's written on" I disagree.
If it were that simple there would not be a legal industry!
There are issues over custom and practise, the fact that LIFO was applied in January this year and age discrimination to mention just a few.
On age discrimination, bear in mind, new pilots are of all ages thanks to age discrimination legislation, not so for the most senior.
So are 150 senior pilot tribunals, through Balpa or privately, really going to be cheaper than following the written policies? I think not!
In fact I think the management's present course is taking a hell of a risk with share holders money!
Essentially you are saying that FOs lives are already crap so it's not such a big deal to crap on them.
Which pretty much ensures what the vote is going to be if BALPA puts it to the members.
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Is BALPA fit for purpose?
The OP asked the question if BALPA was fit for purpose.
BALPA is a labour union bound by the labour laws of the UK. BALPA is almost toothless when it comes to protecting its members because the labour laws of the UK make them toothless.
Can BALPA stop Flybe from doing it 'Saad's way' - no they can't, because until an employee has actually been dismissed, the union and employee can't claim unfair dismissal.
Does ignoring policy F mean a clean cut compensation claim for the employee - No. Because again the laws of the UK mean that just because its written in black and white doesn't mean it's legally binding. If the company can convince a judge that the policy is unworkable, unrealistic, unfit for purpose, and unfair to the greater workforce, then it could be deemed void.
Is policy F unfit for purpose - well Flybe needs drastic changes to survive, a turnaround within the constraints of policy F would bankrupt the company, doing nothing would bankrupt the company, not following policy F gives them a lifeline, a small gamble that if it went to court they wouldn't pay massive legal fees for unfair dismissal, however losing in court...... would bankrupt the company.
I honestly think that Flybe management are playing the only card they have left.
I have no dog in this fight, I left Flybe many moons ago. Just my 2 cents
BALPA is a labour union bound by the labour laws of the UK. BALPA is almost toothless when it comes to protecting its members because the labour laws of the UK make them toothless.
Can BALPA stop Flybe from doing it 'Saad's way' - no they can't, because until an employee has actually been dismissed, the union and employee can't claim unfair dismissal.
Does ignoring policy F mean a clean cut compensation claim for the employee - No. Because again the laws of the UK mean that just because its written in black and white doesn't mean it's legally binding. If the company can convince a judge that the policy is unworkable, unrealistic, unfit for purpose, and unfair to the greater workforce, then it could be deemed void.
Is policy F unfit for purpose - well Flybe needs drastic changes to survive, a turnaround within the constraints of policy F would bankrupt the company, doing nothing would bankrupt the company, not following policy F gives them a lifeline, a small gamble that if it went to court they wouldn't pay massive legal fees for unfair dismissal, however losing in court...... would bankrupt the company.
I honestly think that Flybe management are playing the only card they have left.
I have no dog in this fight, I left Flybe many moons ago. Just my 2 cents
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There will be quite a few of them laughing there pants off just now after having fights over routes and having to shut down bases themselves in the past because they couldn't afford to run the route at a lose like flybe was to get rid of them.
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When I read this thread & (some of ) the attitudes therein (never mind the totally "unfit for purpose" industrial legislation) I am so glad I p1ssed off from the UK 21 years ago.
Tourist, you may be cheaper than Itch, but, in the old days we subscribed to "get what you pay for", hence why 17 years seniority may have commanded a premium.
Regretably in the i-phone generation, we seem to have lost the notion that experience has any value, & seem to believe that a steely eyed OS-X ace will do just as good a job as an old f@rt in all circumstances.
It is surely cheaper to keep all the young guys, but, should no consideration be given to the difficulty one of "advancing years" may have in sourcing alternative employment. The younger you are, assuredly the easier it is. Of course experience should count, but , in this cheapskate world it doesn't. Apart from loans to pay for the "coveted" ATPL/MPL /TR I would wager that older guys have more commitment in terms of families/mortgages etc. . yes you retort, but they have worked for long enough to have had the opportunity to have taken care of them. . . so, I shall settle for my final uttering. . . I think you are behaving like a disrespectful little to someone that possibly/probably trained/mentored/tested you. Congrats on your sense of levity.
Tourist, you may be cheaper than Itch, but, in the old days we subscribed to "get what you pay for", hence why 17 years seniority may have commanded a premium.
Regretably in the i-phone generation, we seem to have lost the notion that experience has any value, & seem to believe that a steely eyed OS-X ace will do just as good a job as an old f@rt in all circumstances.
It is surely cheaper to keep all the young guys, but, should no consideration be given to the difficulty one of "advancing years" may have in sourcing alternative employment. The younger you are, assuredly the easier it is. Of course experience should count, but , in this cheapskate world it doesn't. Apart from loans to pay for the "coveted" ATPL/MPL /TR I would wager that older guys have more commitment in terms of families/mortgages etc. . yes you retort, but they have worked for long enough to have had the opportunity to have taken care of them. . . so, I shall settle for my final uttering. . . I think you are behaving like a disrespectful little
to someone that possibly/probably trained/mentored/tested you. Congrats on your sense of levity.
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captplaystation
Don't make assumptions.
Not young.
Not at Flybe.
And most certainly was never mentored by any **** with attitudes of entitlement like him.
Salaries should be earned by performance rather than place sitting.
p.s. he really does sound like the mentoring type, doesn't he, throwing women and children behind him in the interests of securing his position.
Don't make assumptions.
Not young.
Not at Flybe.
And most certainly was never mentored by any **** with attitudes of entitlement like him.
Salaries should be earned by performance rather than place sitting.
p.s. he really does sound like the mentoring type, doesn't he, throwing women and children behind him in the interests of securing his position.
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Just reread your post.
Quite enlightening.
You bemoan the fact that experience does not count in this world yet support the seniority system that ossifies that exact system in place.
The moment you move airline, through choice or not, all your experience is worthless. You start at the bottom regardless.
Quite enlightening.
You bemoan the fact that experience does not count in this world yet support the seniority system that ossifies that exact system in place.
The moment you move airline, through choice or not, all your experience is worthless. You start at the bottom regardless.
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'Twas ever thus. Pay offers weighted towards the Q400 fleet which. A fleet which had the bigger vote by virtue of having three times the number of pilots. Guess who won?
Only kidding about the proles, you occasionally had to talk to them if only to suggest they move out of the way.
Only kidding about the proles, you occasionally had to talk to them if only to suggest they move out of the way.
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The OP asked the question if BALPA was fit for purpose.
BALPA is a labour union bound by the labour laws of the UK. BALPA is almost toothless when it comes to protecting its members because the labour laws of the UK make them toothless.
Can BALPA stop Flybe from doing it 'Saad's way' - no they can't, because until an employee has actually been dismissed, the union and employee can't claim unfair dismissal.
Does ignoring policy F mean a clean cut compensation claim for the employee - No. Because again the laws of the UK mean that just because its written in black and white doesn't mean it's legally binding. If the company can convince a judge that the policy is unworkable, unrealistic, unfit for purpose, and unfair to the greater workforce, then it could be deemed void.
Is policy F unfit for purpose - well Flybe needs drastic changes to survive, a turnaround within the constraints of policy F would bankrupt the company, doing nothing would bankrupt the company, not following policy F gives them a lifeline, a small gamble that if it went to court they wouldn't pay massive legal fees for unfair dismissal, however losing in court...... would bankrupt the company.
BALPA is a labour union bound by the labour laws of the UK. BALPA is almost toothless when it comes to protecting its members because the labour laws of the UK make them toothless.
Can BALPA stop Flybe from doing it 'Saad's way' - no they can't, because until an employee has actually been dismissed, the union and employee can't claim unfair dismissal.
Does ignoring policy F mean a clean cut compensation claim for the employee - No. Because again the laws of the UK mean that just because its written in black and white doesn't mean it's legally binding. If the company can convince a judge that the policy is unworkable, unrealistic, unfit for purpose, and unfair to the greater workforce, then it could be deemed void.
Is policy F unfit for purpose - well Flybe needs drastic changes to survive, a turnaround within the constraints of policy F would bankrupt the company, doing nothing would bankrupt the company, not following policy F gives them a lifeline, a small gamble that if it went to court they wouldn't pay massive legal fees for unfair dismissal, however losing in court...... would bankrupt the company.
All BALPA members listen to what is being said because it applies to every UK airline pilot. Have a look at your contract and work out which sections you think your compny will honour? Then consider the Flybe situation and if it impacts you. If your answer is, "I'm ok Jack", your head is firmly in the sand. Any BA pilots following this issue?
I feel for all those in Flybe at the moment. There but for the Grace of God.
BALPA is divided by it's structure, management know that. EASE FTL rulings have impacted on BALPA's perceived influence.
Is BALPA fit for purpose? I remain a member for individual grievance coverage.
Best fortune to all in Flybe.
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Mud slinging ain't gonna help! Lets get back on point! (sorry mentoring over)
Should a company honour it's policies? Should the employees representatives (Balpa in this case) fight to ensure a company does so.
The time to decide whether you like those policies is before you join. I think a meritocracy like Easy Jet has many good points. I think the seniority system has many good things about it. Neither are perfect but we knew what we were joining when we did so.
Remember when it was illegal to trade on Sundays but they did it anyway because they made more money than the fine. That's what I believe Flybe are doing. They have figured out that it will probably (providing not too many people take them to court) be cheaper to break the agreements than to follow them.
My last post was an attempt to demonstrate one thing.
Why Flybe may have miscalculated.
The career of pilot is already second rate. How much further are we prepared to let it fall? Every time we let employers treat us like this it's another nail in the coffin.
Should a company honour it's policies? Should the employees representatives (Balpa in this case) fight to ensure a company does so.
The time to decide whether you like those policies is before you join. I think a meritocracy like Easy Jet has many good points. I think the seniority system has many good things about it. Neither are perfect but we knew what we were joining when we did so.
Remember when it was illegal to trade on Sundays but they did it anyway because they made more money than the fine. That's what I believe Flybe are doing. They have figured out that it will probably (providing not too many people take them to court) be cheaper to break the agreements than to follow them.
My last post was an attempt to demonstrate one thing.
Why Flybe may have miscalculated.
The career of pilot is already second rate. How much further are we prepared to let it fall? Every time we let employers treat us like this it's another nail in the coffin.
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Folks.
It's 'Mind over matter'.
They don't mind, you don't matter.
Working overseas is better paid, much more enjoyable and not living in the UK has a set of advantages all it's own.
So glad I've left.
From somebody who is more relaxed, better paid, healthier and warmer than he's ever been before.
And not paying UK tax either!
It's 'Mind over matter'.
They don't mind, you don't matter.
Working overseas is better paid, much more enjoyable and not living in the UK has a set of advantages all it's own.
So glad I've left.
From somebody who is more relaxed, better paid, healthier and warmer than he's ever been before.
And not paying UK tax either!
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The company can and WILL do what they see fit. They will of sourced good sound legal advice before going down the route they have taken. That advice will be fact and based on current employment laws which has concluded that policy F is unsafe in its current format!
Regardless of your opinion on policy F, stop clutching at that straw! It is an inherited prehistoric document that is unfit in the current work place! Do you see this practise at other companies like Tesco when they have to make cuts? NO! Because it wrong!
Is BALPA unfit for purpose? YES! I left Balpa a long time ago for many reasons that I won't go into on here, but suffice to say I think they are a very expensive waist of space. My colleagues say to me you should be member to protect yourself. If that is the only reason people can give to be a member of a union then that says it all!
I will keep my fingers crossed for you itch and everybody else at risk, including myself! However the time has come to take this on the chin and move on with life. Nothing is certain and I feel for people who have their head in the sand thinking policy F will save them.
Regardless of your opinion on policy F, stop clutching at that straw! It is an inherited prehistoric document that is unfit in the current work place! Do you see this practise at other companies like Tesco when they have to make cuts? NO! Because it wrong!
Is BALPA unfit for purpose? YES! I left Balpa a long time ago for many reasons that I won't go into on here, but suffice to say I think they are a very expensive waist of space. My colleagues say to me you should be member to protect yourself. If that is the only reason people can give to be a member of a union then that says it all!
I will keep my fingers crossed for you itch and everybody else at risk, including myself! However the time has come to take this on the chin and move on with life. Nothing is certain and I feel for people who have their head in the sand thinking policy F will save them.
Last edited by Set 1013; 11th Dec 2013 at 08:18.
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Itch, you make alot of assumptions. Did you read the latest balpa press release? They're still exploring if there is litigation to be answered. You may well end up a very, very disappointed little itch. How confident are you of even stepping into a courtroom? I'd be careful hedging your bets on this one.
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At last, voice of reason set 1013...
A mirror of what I said on page 2, this decision is made...if you have the "at risk" letter, it will happen! Put your efforts into looking after number 1!
A mirror of what I said on page 2, this decision is made...if you have the "at risk" letter, it will happen! Put your efforts into looking after number 1!
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Itch,
You need to call in sick. You are so wound up and short of sleep (your own admission) that no-one, crew or passenger, should have to fly with you. Print out a copy of your post #59 and take it off to your GP and he/she will certainly book you off. (And as this is all after you have been formally notified that you risk losing your job that will not be a period of sickness that will be able to be held against you and still stand up in any tribunal.)
Now to all of you Flybe pilots who are complaining about losing your bases/jobs, etc., just think very carefully about all the other pilots out there who lost their bases/jobs because of Flybe undercutting their airlines and making their routes and bases unviable when they had got by quite happily for years before that. It's that undercutting that has made Flybe unviable and causing your problems, but you didn't complain about it at the time. (To make it worse, Flybe now pulling off any of those routes will be adding insult to injury for any of those pilots who lost out to Flybe's predatory but unsustainable past practices.)
To those of you who are 'gloating' from afar (having left the UK 21 years ago, etc.), just shut up and carry on playing in your sandpit (but watch out that the cats don't cover you up!); it must be very, very boring there if there is nothing else to do other than put 2,000+ posts on PPRuNe!!
Now back to if BALPA is fit for purpose. BALPA is an Association (that is in its name) and it does that very well. As a union? Well, often it could do better, but it's up to the members to get involved and stay involved in order to make that work. And when you do so, stop trying to hark back to old 'civil service' style work practices, the world just doesn't work that way any more; try to get your agreements and practices up to date and realise that the airline is in the business to do... well, business! Airlines are not socialist-style pilots' careers support systems. I bet that most of those complaining bitterly about BALPA have not done anything about being personally involved with the union up to now. There is a saying that generally countries get the government that they deserve (i.e. apathy from the population allows a government to become whatever it becomes) -- the same applies to your union. Did you get involved? If the answer is 'no', then you've got what you deserve. But if you do get involved, be realistic: idiots like McCluskey are living in lala-land!
For all of you who are being realistic, good luck for new jobs.
You need to call in sick. You are so wound up and short of sleep (your own admission) that no-one, crew or passenger, should have to fly with you. Print out a copy of your post #59 and take it off to your GP and he/she will certainly book you off. (And as this is all after you have been formally notified that you risk losing your job that will not be a period of sickness that will be able to be held against you and still stand up in any tribunal.)
Now to all of you Flybe pilots who are complaining about losing your bases/jobs, etc., just think very carefully about all the other pilots out there who lost their bases/jobs because of Flybe undercutting their airlines and making their routes and bases unviable when they had got by quite happily for years before that. It's that undercutting that has made Flybe unviable and causing your problems, but you didn't complain about it at the time. (To make it worse, Flybe now pulling off any of those routes will be adding insult to injury for any of those pilots who lost out to Flybe's predatory but unsustainable past practices.)
To those of you who are 'gloating' from afar (having left the UK 21 years ago, etc.), just shut up and carry on playing in your sandpit (but watch out that the cats don't cover you up!); it must be very, very boring there if there is nothing else to do other than put 2,000+ posts on PPRuNe!!
Now back to if BALPA is fit for purpose. BALPA is an Association (that is in its name) and it does that very well. As a union? Well, often it could do better, but it's up to the members to get involved and stay involved in order to make that work. And when you do so, stop trying to hark back to old 'civil service' style work practices, the world just doesn't work that way any more; try to get your agreements and practices up to date and realise that the airline is in the business to do... well, business! Airlines are not socialist-style pilots' careers support systems. I bet that most of those complaining bitterly about BALPA have not done anything about being personally involved with the union up to now. There is a saying that generally countries get the government that they deserve (i.e. apathy from the population allows a government to become whatever it becomes) -- the same applies to your union. Did you get involved? If the answer is 'no', then you've got what you deserve. But if you do get involved, be realistic: idiots like McCluskey are living in lala-land!
For all of you who are being realistic, good luck for new jobs.