BALPA save BA money!
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BALPA have co-written, with UNITE, a letter to BA urging them not to pay Holiday Pay (HP) to anyone that was not in the union. This after trying to cut pay without consultation in order to remove the cost liability of HP from BA - only this would apply to all pilots. So screwing over the non-union pilots. It gets worse, by allying themselves with UNITE, the mother union of BASSA, they are helping to screw over any cabin crew that left the union during the dispute with BA.
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JT, as many of your colleagues have posted, let's move on together. It's time to heal the wounds and move forward working together like all trade unions should. I applaud their joint statement. Just as you are annoyed 'BA backers' won't be included, I'm equally annoyed our decent pilots who left BALPA won't be.
There's nothing to stop them taking a claim out in their own names and they'll probably win it, but why should others benefit from a claim they haven't financially contributed to?
There's nothing to stop them taking a claim out in their own names and they'll probably win it, but why should others benefit from a claim they haven't financially contributed to?
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I suppose Wonker that you are also against Universal suffrage or any other right won by a small group. A right is a right and this petty union posturing is vile and unworthy.
Unions cannot have it both ways, If they want to negotiate pay and T&Cs for everyone, the price has always been that non-members also get the benefits. When the union stoops to actively trying to stoops to this sort of behaviour it demeans ALL their members by turning them into petty, childish and small-minded.
This is not about "moving-on" something you seem desperate for people to do yet you continue to harp on about at every opportunity. This is about fairness for all, not just union members. It has nothing to do with your obsession.
Unions cannot have it both ways, If they want to negotiate pay and T&Cs for everyone, the price has always been that non-members also get the benefits. When the union stoops to actively trying to stoops to this sort of behaviour it demeans ALL their members by turning them into petty, childish and small-minded.
This is not about "moving-on" something you seem desperate for people to do yet you continue to harp on about at every opportunity. This is about fairness for all, not just union members. It has nothing to do with your obsession.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 15th Mar 2013 at 12:05.
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Unions cannot have it both ways, If they want to negotiate pay and T&Cs for everyone, the price has always been that non-members also get the benefits
Get real JT - we're not talking about a broke, impoverished group!
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Whilst I'm not a BA pilot, I am a long time BALPA member. Surely you have that the wrong way round! If you want the benefits of membership you need to be a member and not hang on to the coat tails of those who are willing to stump up 1% of their gross salary.
BALPA took a risk spending money I have given to them by going to the courts. Sometimes they win like in the holiday pay case, sometimes they lose like in open skies. It's a risk you take going to court. It's a risk I'm happy to support just as BALPA takes risks in my airline which I hope the members in BA are willing to support.
But why on earth should I risk my subs on someone who isn't willing to pay his or her fair share?
And as to negotiating T's and C's, I'm pretty sure in the current BALPA BA agreement there's a clause that states that any pilot is free to negotiate their own terms and conditions. If you're not happy with what balpa's doing on your behalf (without you paying for the service) feel free to negotiate your salary, per diems, rostering agreement, loss of licence, health care, pension etc yourself.
Last edited by gorter; 15th Mar 2013 at 12:36.
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I wouldn't worry gorter, JT just sees red mist when I post then quickly posts some irrational response to try and get 'one over', without thinking of the ridiculous statement he's just made.
If you're employed and want support and protection a union provides, then you jolly well contribute towards it - we're not a charity!
If you're employed and want support and protection a union provides, then you jolly well contribute towards it - we're not a charity!
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 15th Mar 2013 at 14:12.
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WW,
You don't get to play that game. You take any opportunity you can to have a pop at BA pilots and BALPA. We may agree on this one issue but in general I find your stance towards your fellow union members to be left wanting.
You don't get to play that game. You take any opportunity you can to have a pop at BA pilots and BALPA. We may agree on this one issue but in general I find your stance towards your fellow union members to be left wanting.
Wonker you've summed it up there. BALPA does more than just negotiate T&C, it provides support and protection amongst other things. For those who don't want that they are carried along with the T&C negotiated. It's up to the individual to choose if the price of membership is worth the subs to them. Morals apart - if you're OK with someone else paying to which you receive a benefit without contributing.
Gorter I'm not sure you're correct in believing that a company will negotiate with an individual. I think that most will only negotiate with the agreed union if there is one.
Gorter I'm not sure you're correct in believing that a company will negotiate with an individual. I think that most will only negotiate with the agreed union if there is one.
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It's totally irrelevant if you are a member of BALPA or not when it comes to holiday pay. BALPA set the precedent and campaigned for the payment using members subs but each and every case was brought as an individual case citing the persons name.
Once the precedent in law has been set it is then up to the individual as to whether he/she wishes to pursue the company through the courts for the back payment of holiday pay.
It is not the remit of the Union, Unite or BALPA, to decide who should and shouldn't get paid, the remit of the Union is to represent its members, nothing more.
Those outside of the Union should have received holiday pay from the company over the same period, they didn't, thus, as now encapsulated in law, they should be free to take legal action as they see fit.
What Unite and BALPA are doing is disingenuous to say the least.
The fallout from this and the BMI deal will affect ALL pilots and Cabin Crew, those who are members and those who are not. If the company ran two sets of T's & C's, one for members and one for non members, then I could see the point. The company doesn't.
Once the precedent in law has been set it is then up to the individual as to whether he/she wishes to pursue the company through the courts for the back payment of holiday pay.
It is not the remit of the Union, Unite or BALPA, to decide who should and shouldn't get paid, the remit of the Union is to represent its members, nothing more.
Those outside of the Union should have received holiday pay from the company over the same period, they didn't, thus, as now encapsulated in law, they should be free to take legal action as they see fit.
What Unite and BALPA are doing is disingenuous to say the least.
The fallout from this and the BMI deal will affect ALL pilots and Cabin Crew, those who are members and those who are not. If the company ran two sets of T's & C's, one for members and one for non members, then I could see the point. The company doesn't.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 15th Mar 2013 at 15:03.
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So why do I pay my membership fees? For others who don't?
Get real JT - we're not talking about a broke, impoverished group!
Get real JT - we're not talking about a broke, impoverished group!
My objection is with my union joining forces with UNITE to urge BA not to pay pilots AND cabin crew any HP unless they are part of the union. I think that this is despicable. Pilots unions should not be involved in what a company pays it's cabin crew at all. Indeed until now BALPA has remained neutral - whether Wonker and his ilk will admit it BALPA did not either support or work against BASSA in the strike. Individuals acted but not the union.
So when you say that we are not talking about a broke, impoverished group we are talking about cabin crew. I don't care a fig whether UNITE wants to call for it's non-members to be screwed over, but i do object when my union decides to do so. It is not the place of BALPA to do so any more than it is the place of UNITE to call for pilots not to get their rightful HP.
This is not about someone riding on the coat tails of a union, we all get what we pay for from our respective unions, but about a couple of unions BALPA and UNITE joining forces to try to deny someone their rightful pay - just because the union won that right does not mean they get to decide to whom that right applies. It applies across the board or not at all.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 15th Mar 2013 at 16:32.
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As a non union pilot in BA I have already pointed out to our management that failure to pay non members would constitute discrimination under current legislation, and with the precedent already set, they would lose any further case.
Might have to get the lawyer to write to the company but I cannot see how they can avoid paying.
Either way I will not fund the life style of our BALPA reps....period!
Whilst not anti union per se, they are largely self serving cartels, that have never been able to protect the long term condition in any industry.
Might have to get the lawyer to write to the company but I cannot see how they can avoid paying.
Either way I will not fund the life style of our BALPA reps....period!
Whilst not anti union per se, they are largely self serving cartels, that have never been able to protect the long term condition in any industry.
Our BALPA reps are fellow pilots who are prepared to give up their time - and their family time - to represent us to the best of their ability. Can't we just let them got on with it instead of constantly barracking them?
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I think that this is despicable. Pilots unions should not be involved in what a company pays it's cabin crew at all.
Haven't stopped laughing!!!! At least we agree on something JT!!Unfortunately it was your unions members who helped set up a low paid CC unit at LHR.
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 15th Mar 2013 at 19:58.
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WW. God, you are like a broken record. One minute you say: we have to move on and the next you take another pop shot. How can you trust anyone who continually changes his tune to suit his/her own agenda. Have some backbone and move on, I dare you.
(As we all know 50% of your own members all worked through the strike and so did every other department)
Sadistic pleasure because we are an easy target? Self reflect and learn from your mistakes. Wallowing in anger has gotten you this far and legacy crew is f***** due to your actions.
Be brave, apologise to your membership that you gambled with Willy and you lost, not expecting such a turn out by your own members.
Then, we can move forward.
(As we all know 50% of your own members all worked through the strike and so did every other department)
Sadistic pleasure because we are an easy target? Self reflect and learn from your mistakes. Wallowing in anger has gotten you this far and legacy crew is f***** due to your actions.
Be brave, apologise to your membership that you gambled with Willy and you lost, not expecting such a turn out by your own members.
Then, we can move forward.
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As a non union pilot in BA I have already pointed out to our management that failure to pay non members would constitute discrimination under current legislation, and with the precedent already set, they would lose any further case.
Might have to get the lawyer to write to the company but I cannot see how they can avoid paying.
Either way I will not fund the life style of our BALPA reps....period!
Whilst not anti union per se, they are largely self serving cartels, that have never been able to protect the long term condition in any industry.
Might have to get the lawyer to write to the company but I cannot see how they can avoid paying.
Either way I will not fund the life style of our BALPA reps....period!
Whilst not anti union per se, they are largely self serving cartels, that have never been able to protect the long term condition in any industry.
A little humility might be in order as well as noting that the "self serving cartel" has just secured a huge win for its members, and just maybe any other parasites who want to come along for the ride.
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I don't work for BA but am a BALPA member elsewhere. I was also a TGWU (now UNITE) member in a past life, albeit under duress as I had no choice. There are some people on here who want all the protections and perks of Union membership but want other people to pay for it. I have zero sympathy for them frankly.
I think, however, it is ill-advised of BALPA and UNITE to actively ask their management not to give HP to non-members. It opens the door to a 'benevolent' act (divide and conquer?) from management to go against their request and give it out anyway. Furthermore, it is inconsistent in that the unions always negotiate pay rises for the whole workforce and not just their members. Finally, it has an ugly air about it that will only cause unnecessary offense. All-in-all, a very unwise move.
I think, however, it is ill-advised of BALPA and UNITE to actively ask their management not to give HP to non-members. It opens the door to a 'benevolent' act (divide and conquer?) from management to go against their request and give it out anyway. Furthermore, it is inconsistent in that the unions always negotiate pay rises for the whole workforce and not just their members. Finally, it has an ugly air about it that will only cause unnecessary offense. All-in-all, a very unwise move.
