Flying free on Ryanair.

[Boeingflyer]

B738Driver

Sorry for my spelling, but english is not my native language. But i do belive you can understand what i am saying. If its to painful for you, well look the other way..
And by the way, with your attitude i dont belive you are working as commercial pilot dude..

Over 70% in FR is contracters. In subartQ you must have a assigned base.
Also more than 50% of contracters dont live at there base, and travel to and from home to get to work. For some it will take op to 12 hours to get to there base. That means FR pilots haft to use off days to travel. Deadhead dutytime is not part in there dutytime.
FR pilots must also find out how to get to there base no matter what base pilots are going to check inn on there first day, and also pay for all exspences - Travel,Hotel and Taxi..
Thay maybe get 20Euro more for blocktime, but that does not cover the exspences. The biggest scam is, its not part in there dutytime and thats unleagal !

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Wally, thanks. So in effect the roster is actually seven on two off!

[EcamSurprise]

I work for another company and I commute.
I pay for a apartment in my place of work and also have an aparemt where I spent most of my days off.

I usually pay for tickets on either my last day of earlies or my 1st day off as then again return to work on my last day off.

This is a normal commuting lifestyle and is what hundreds of people do in many companies.

What's the difference?? It is my choice to commute and I have to do it responsibly.

What I don't think is oK in FR is when pilots are out of base. In my company we would be paid to position on duty days and have accommodation provided and receive an extra allowance for being away.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

It's not a problem, as such, but the much vaunted 5/4 roster, touted by Ryanair and its disciples is, effectively, a 7/2 roster for many/most of its...employees(?).

You choosing to live a commuting lifestyle is one thing but being forced to live like that is another.

[EcamSurprise]

Well, I think choose is a very loose word.
I am in a base where I don't really want to be, and would much rather be somewhere else. But while I am here I am making the most of it and commuting.

Arn't the FR guys choosing too?
They could establish their lives in XXX base but choose not to.
They don't HAVE to commute. Which is the same for all of us, but we do.

My company also has a fixed roster pattern, but by the same coin as you mention, it is effectively reduced to less days off.
Having said that, commuting IS tiring but managed properly, it isn't a risk.

I am not saying what they do is right, but if your company says "your home base is XXX". Can you REALLY expect them to say.. OK, have day 1 and day 5 just for getting to and from your home base?!
No, because it just doesn't work like that!

I hate commuting, it is anti-social and depressing sometimes.
But let us put some true context onto what is being said above rather than just doing the old FR hate game.

IF a pilot is positioning for an out of base duty on his days off, then that is a very different and important matter.
If it is to his home base, then that is the life that many of us follow.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I think we're talking at slightly crossed purposes. I was talking about Ryaniar telling someone that next week they'll be operating from XXXX airport. As I understand it the pilot is then required to position to that base at his own expense and in his own time, ie last day off. Then to get home, if they finish late, they'd have to position on the first of their days off. XXXX airport could be any on the network. Is that correct?

It's slightly different to commuting to your home base as that's to the same place of work every time.

If my company want me to operate from a base other than my own I will be positioned at their expense on the first day of my working week, I may fly after I've positioned depending on allowable FDP. To get back to my home base I will be positioned on my final working day and be at home for all of my days off.

[EcamSurprise]

Lord Spandex (how very posh that sounds), I completely agree with the above.

I was more responded to those who made comments about positioning to and from home base.

If I were to be out of base, I would absolutely expect to position on day 1 / 5 (or as applicable) at the companies expense, not have to worry about where I am staying and get paid a bit extra for my efforts.. all with it counting towards my duty.
Anything else is dodgy.

[Utrinque]

You have guys paying for apartments where they work, apartments where they live and hotel rooms out of base all at the same time. Hardly surprising they commute outside of their rest period to save the cost of another night in a hotel.

[Bernoulli]

Ryanair must be very grateful to their workforce for subsidising their operation. And the workers must really love their jobs to be willing to take these business expenses on from the Company.

[SID PLATE]

Obviously it is illigal to position in the morning for a long 4 sector day in the afternoon. Pilots risk their licence by doing so but I am surprised the company is not concerned by the fatigue factor, especially with so many young crews poling around.

Untrique .. It's no more illegal (and less tiring) than spending two hours in a car on the motorway before reporting. It all depends on how tired you are when you get there. It's not the distance involved, it's the time, and the amount of stress you endure whilst spending it.

[Denti]

Actually, if you are, even only face-saving officially, part of an operating crew your flight duty time starts at the report time of that flight. Simple EU-OPS rules. Therefore using something like that could lead to more than pointed questions after an incident. During normal operations nobody cares.

My company allowed us to fly for free until around a year ago. We would just print out a ticket at any computer and show up on checkin. However we were not part of the crew, just normal standby passengers with full passenger rights. The company paid for the security and airport charges and still continous to do so until now, however nowadays we have to pay the usual Z class price for the ticket, which on the other hand allows us not to fly standby but on a confirmed fixed booking for only a minor price increase.

Commuting from and to base is normal for many flight crews, so nearly all airlines have some scheme in place to allow that, however they should take care to be legally on the safe side.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Originally Posted by SID PLATE

Obviously it is illigal to position in the morning for a long 4 sector day in the afternoon. Pilots risk their licence by doing so but I am surprised the company is not concerned by the fatigue factor, especially with so many young crews poling around.

Untrique .. It's no more illegal (and less tiring) than spending two hours in a car on the motorway before reporting. It all depends on how tired you are when you get there. It's not the distance involved, it's the time, and the amount of stress you endure whilst spending it.

Well it all depends. If you are positioning at the behest of the company you are on duty, my company states a maximum of two and a half hours drive and it counts as a sector for the calculation of allowable FDP and that is to a base other than my own. So you can see that positioning could take me over my allowable FDP thereby making my duty illegal. Ryanair get around that by making you position in your own time i.e. the day off before a duty.

If you are driving, or commuting, to your regular base then that doesn't count because you are not on duty until you report. So that is the time that your allowable FDP starts.

[JW411]

In my day, the CAA would only ever allow a 1 hour and 30 minute commute to work before the start of a FDP.

Has this changed and can your current employer show you where the CAA has now changed their mind and now allows a 2 hour and 30 minute drive to the airport?

I am genuinely interested to see who in the CAA has put their signature to this change.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

No it's still an hour and a half for a commute or drive to your normal place of work.

Two and a half and a sector for positioning.

[JW411]

Thanks for that; I misunderstood what you were saying.

Just as a matter of interest, if your rostering department considers a limo ride from Airfield A to Airfield B to be 2 hours and 25 minutes, where would you be then?

For that matter, what would happen if you got stuck on the M25?

I know the answer already but I am just curious to know how your particular crewing department would deal with the situation and how you would respond.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I knew I should've been more specific. The 2.5 hours and a sector only counts if it's self drive.

If you're sat in the back of a limo our allowable FDP starts at the report time and all time (no limit) spent positioning counts as duty but it doesn't count as a sector for FDP purposes.

It's never happened to me at this airline but I assume they'd treat it as a normal delay and utilise up to max FDP.

[JW411]

Thank you for that explanation. My interest in the subject is that I represented the interests of the pilots in my last company for seven years on my own before we got ourselves a council and during that time, I became quite interested in FDPs.

It might surprise you to learn that the CAA Bader rules could actually be more detrimental to my health than the JAA rules.

I wish you luck with EASA.

I am sure that someone in your company will stand up for you and look after your interests.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I think we'll need more than luck!

[Denti]

Apparently there are still different rules in the UK than according EU OPS. Anyway, according EU OPS any duty before an active flight duty is considered flight duty time in full, however is not considered as an operating sector (OPS 1.1105, 5.2). Therefore it reduces the remaining flight duty time in full, but doesn't reduce it via the number of landings. Deadheading after an active duty is only considered duty and has to be taken into account for the required minimum rest.

So, if one is stuck in traffic on a deadhead before duty its tough luck for the company in any case as the likelyhood is high that the flight has to be either delayed or a standby crew called out, in which case the deadhead might become unnecessary in the first place. After duty one has to inform the rostering department so that the rest time can be adjusted accordingly.

Since deadheading of all kinds is a major thing in my company with more than 50 million euros spend a year on that alone we installed CLAs that regulate how that is done, for example self driving is not allowed at all, the company has to provide transportation in suitable forms from and to homebase.

[smith]

I think what the OP is alluding to is, that when you position on your day off and are not on duty, you are not paying taxes and are therefore gaining a competitive advantage over other airlines as in effect you are merely a passenger.

If however, you are repositioned mid roster and it is counted as duty time this is perfectly legal and no APD should be paid.