Italian tax authority after Ryanair pilots
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I wish I knew
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, it is normal to be paid for block hours rather than a "flat rate" but some of the guys who recently had screenings were told they would be working for a "local company" not an agency, maybe something was lost in translation as they assumed only 6% tax liability when in Spain it may be nearer 36% at source. The point is... has ANY RYR pilots actually been contacted by the tax authorities or is this rumour confined to the tabloids? The CX Pilots whom believed they were actually working for CX UK LTD have been told that that company was just a "shell" and never actually reported or accounted to the UK authorities, therefore under the Dual Tax Agreement with HK these guys have been clobbered in HK..
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Callsign_Kilo
There isn't 2400 pilots in Ryanair to my knowledge. Unless the exodus to Emirates was that massive or unless there is a refusal to acknowledge 200hr sky gods as being actual pilots then the figure appears to be missing around 1000 'glorified bus drivers.' Which would most probably be contractors I'd hasten to add!
See page 101 for number of staff, including both employed pilots and contract agency pilots. Then see page 11 for number of contract pilots. Maybe the official annual report isn't correct?
Total number of pilots March 31:
2010: 2032
2011: 2344
2012: 2429 (including 1636 contractors)
If these numbers are correct the ratio is now roughly 2:1 contract/employee and has been decreasing steadily of course. If your assumption is correct the ratio would be nearer to 3:1 instead. Whichever it is, the group of employees will eventually be eroded completely.
Last edited by linmar; 16th Jan 2013 at 10:54.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newcastle NI
Posts: 824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They have to keep finding ways to keep cost down and employee costs is one of the few that they can control, by not paying people on standby, but having them available is a massive save and remember here that we are not talking about sector or duty pay, we are talking about zero cost to cover lines of flying.
How long i wonder will it be before you get to bid for blocks of hours that you buy, this would be F/o only keen to get that first 1500 hours on a jet, lets face it for FR people leaving is an absolute godsend, it keeps EMT ltd in business.
Still better than serving burgers, well at least the one's made from horse meat
How long i wonder will it be before you get to bid for blocks of hours that you buy, this would be F/o only keen to get that first 1500 hours on a jet, lets face it for FR people leaving is an absolute godsend, it keeps EMT ltd in business.
Still better than serving burgers, well at least the one's made from horse meat
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LNIDA,
My contract specifies a payment per "scheduled block hour",why do you anticipate that will generate an extra payment for holding & diversions ?
That is Confair, PARC is the same, & ARPI merely specifies BLH , but they will not be paying on a different system to the other two.
My contract specifies a payment per "scheduled block hour",why do you anticipate that will generate an extra payment for holding & diversions ?
That is Confair, PARC is the same, & ARPI merely specifies BLH , but they will not be paying on a different system to the other two.
Last edited by captplaystation; 18th Jan 2013 at 19:47.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyalliga
No matter how often I tell you I am not a supporter of MOL or the Ryanair way of doing business.
What I am a supporter of is the right to do business within the law, if EU states are so stupid that they let the likes of MOL ride roughshod over them
then they get what they deserve.
On one hand we have MOL avoiding the social taxes and on the other hand we have pilots who want to stay within the law who can't because the state they are based won't except the paperwork.
As I said above this situation won't change untill the EU as a whole gets ther act together, the Italian courts can rant & rave as much as they want but without a common EU policy enforced in a common way the likes of MOL will operate between the cracks in the legislation.
What I am a supporter of is the right to do business within the law, if EU states are so stupid that they let the likes of MOL ride roughshod over them
then they get what they deserve.
On one hand we have MOL avoiding the social taxes and on the other hand we have pilots who want to stay within the law who can't because the state they are based won't except the paperwork.
As I said above this situation won't change untill the EU as a whole gets ther act together, the Italian courts can rant & rave as much as they want but without a common EU policy enforced in a common way the likes of MOL will operate between the cracks in the legislation.
Last edited by A and C; 18th Jan 2013 at 21:46.
A & C - do you do anything other than rant about every subject under the sun? You own me a reply on the cabin crew thread you hijacked, but I suspect you havent done so because you realised you are talking out of your ar$e on there too.
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/501...ml#post7637962
Get a life!
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/501...ml#post7637962
Get a life!
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kick the tyres
I don't owe you anything, I said that I would reply when I had the information, as of yet EZY have yet to reply to my emails, as I said at the time I will not make any accusations based just on my suspicions only on hard fact.
Perhaps you would like to tell me why you think my last post on this thread is so wide of the mark ? The Italian courts only have jurisdiction in Italy, if they rule against MOL he will just move the base out of the Italian jurisdiction and into another EU state, untill there is EU wide action this will continue.
I find it hard to understand why such an observation provokes such a reaction from you.
Finally I have to say that this is a professional forum and it is expected that we maintain a reasonable standard of behavior, your last post falls well below the professional standard required.
Perhaps you would like to tell me why you think my last post on this thread is so wide of the mark ? The Italian courts only have jurisdiction in Italy, if they rule against MOL he will just move the base out of the Italian jurisdiction and into another EU state, untill there is EU wide action this will continue.
I find it hard to understand why such an observation provokes such a reaction from you.
Finally I have to say that this is a professional forum and it is expected that we maintain a reasonable standard of behavior, your last post falls well below the professional standard required.
Last edited by A and C; 19th Jan 2013 at 15:27.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A and C,
Italian courts may only have jurisdiction in Italy but evidently Ryanair also has plenty of business there, to the point where even MOL will have to bend over and get shafted by a stupid southern EU state.
Google Translate
Italian courts may only have jurisdiction in Italy but evidently Ryanair also has plenty of business there, to the point where even MOL will have to bend over and get shafted by a stupid southern EU state.
Google Translate
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyalliga
I would like to see you proved correct but the cynic in me thinks that local vested interests and the snail like pace of the Italian legal system will result in the Irishman slipping off the hook.
My guess is that MOL will move all but what is absolutely necessary for the Italian operation out of Italian jurisdiction and service the lions share of the Italian market from bases outside Italy thus avoiding as much Italian tax as posable.
Should the Italian authorities try some sort of protectionist measures MOL will fight them tooth & nail in the courts knowing that previous attempts at this have failed ( back in 1999 a number of Italian reagonal governments lost a protectionism case for damages made by the administrators of Debonair ).
Unfortunately most of the people in govenment are too inward looking and are unable to see the pan-European picture, as I have said in the past untill there is common action within the EU MOL will operate in the cracks between national legislation............a bit like Starbucks, the biggest Coffee chain in the UK who untill recently paid next to no tax in the UK.
My guess is that MOL will move all but what is absolutely necessary for the Italian operation out of Italian jurisdiction and service the lions share of the Italian market from bases outside Italy thus avoiding as much Italian tax as posable.
Should the Italian authorities try some sort of protectionist measures MOL will fight them tooth & nail in the courts knowing that previous attempts at this have failed ( back in 1999 a number of Italian reagonal governments lost a protectionism case for damages made by the administrators of Debonair ).
Unfortunately most of the people in govenment are too inward looking and are unable to see the pan-European picture, as I have said in the past untill there is common action within the EU MOL will operate in the cracks between national legislation............a bit like Starbucks, the biggest Coffee chain in the UK who untill recently paid next to no tax in the UK.
Last edited by A and C; 21st Jan 2013 at 07:01.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A and C,
my friends down in Italy tell me that even if MOL pulls out of Italy completely he will still have to face the outcome of the criminal charges and still have to pay the whole lot since 2006 including fines.
The Italians might offer him a settlement he cannot refuse, we all know that battles in Italy are fought away from courts of law....
Google Traduttore
my friends down in Italy tell me that even if MOL pulls out of Italy completely he will still have to face the outcome of the criminal charges and still have to pay the whole lot since 2006 including fines.
The Italians might offer him a settlement he cannot refuse, we all know that battles in Italy are fought away from courts of law....
Google Traduttore
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A and C:
You are probably right, Ryanair will move out of Italy and fly in and out of the country instead. But, that would mean that a second country in the EU is pushing Ryanair out. France did the same a few years back as I'm sure you remember.
So, what if Spain follows suit? And Denmark? And Holland? And Sweden? Soon enough I guess he will have to stick to a Dublin base... Voices are raised in the matter not only concering Ryanair but there are a lot of companies out there doing virtually the same. Google, for example, is according to experts making hundreds of millions of euros in profit from the Swedish market but as they're legally based in, that's right, Ireland the company payed only some tens of thousands of euros in taxes. [EDIT: In Sweden that is]
Still, the best thing would obviously be that the matter is solved in Brussels, but the chances of that happening anytime soon are slim I suppose...
I still have my hopes up that the unfair competition that is in place at the moment will eventually be level again and that companies that are not operating in the grey areas of the law will come back strong and profitable.
You are probably right, Ryanair will move out of Italy and fly in and out of the country instead. But, that would mean that a second country in the EU is pushing Ryanair out. France did the same a few years back as I'm sure you remember.
So, what if Spain follows suit? And Denmark? And Holland? And Sweden? Soon enough I guess he will have to stick to a Dublin base... Voices are raised in the matter not only concering Ryanair but there are a lot of companies out there doing virtually the same. Google, for example, is according to experts making hundreds of millions of euros in profit from the Swedish market but as they're legally based in, that's right, Ireland the company payed only some tens of thousands of euros in taxes. [EDIT: In Sweden that is]
Still, the best thing would obviously be that the matter is solved in Brussels, but the chances of that happening anytime soon are slim I suppose...
I still have my hopes up that the unfair competition that is in place at the moment will eventually be level again and that companies that are not operating in the grey areas of the law will come back strong and profitable.
Last edited by linmar; 21st Jan 2013 at 12:09.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ITALY
Age: 59
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyalliga
“by a stupid southern EU state”
the only stupid element in your post it is yourself.
“we all know that battles in Italy are fought away from courts of law”
Correct, fiscal system allows to settle fiscal disputes everywhere in the western emisphere,apart probably in Monaco were seemingly you prefer to reside (probably in order to avoid such trivial fact as taxes and fiscal obligations)
“by a stupid southern EU state”
the only stupid element in your post it is yourself.
“we all know that battles in Italy are fought away from courts of law”
Correct, fiscal system allows to settle fiscal disputes everywhere in the western emisphere,apart probably in Monaco were seemingly you prefer to reside (probably in order to avoid such trivial fact as taxes and fiscal obligations)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chill Daniel,
if you read previous posts you'll see it is the likes of A and C who consider you sountherners belonging to broken and stupid countries, I was just sarcastically answering to the fans of MOL and the lovers of the borderline business style of Ryanair.
You can maybe explain to A and C what is going on in Italy, what the labour law says, what the risks are for employees and contractors and how FR dodges the system to the detriment of the workers and of the competition as well; at least until the issue goes in front of the Italian courts in a few weeks.
if you read previous posts you'll see it is the likes of A and C who consider you sountherners belonging to broken and stupid countries, I was just sarcastically answering to the fans of MOL and the lovers of the borderline business style of Ryanair.
You can maybe explain to A and C what is going on in Italy, what the labour law says, what the risks are for employees and contractors and how FR dodges the system to the detriment of the workers and of the competition as well; at least until the issue goes in front of the Italian courts in a few weeks.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyagilla
For you who think that Italy is the pinical of good governance I have one word to say........... Berlusconi !
Last edited by A and C; 21st Jan 2013 at 22:51.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A and C,
I have never spoken about politics nor governance, this is a pilot forum and this discussion is about Ryanair and their dodgy practices that lately endanger their workers personally.
Your comments are superficial, pathetic and absolutely out of context and you even edited such ignorant post, makes you wonder what other stupidities you wrote.
By we all know the cultural level of the Ryanair fans....
I have never spoken about politics nor governance, this is a pilot forum and this discussion is about Ryanair and their dodgy practices that lately endanger their workers personally.
Your comments are superficial, pathetic and absolutely out of context and you even edited such ignorant post, makes you wonder what other stupidities you wrote.
By we all know the cultural level of the Ryanair fans....
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyalliga
The edit was to check that I had got the spelling correct ( never my strong point ).
Simply by the vitriol of your reply it would seem that I have hit a raw nerve, but the fact of the matter is that the governments of the south of Europe embarked on an unwise spending spree during the good times ( no doubt to buy votes ) and this spending has come home to bite them.........or rather it has bitten very hard into the average citizens of these country's.
So the reaction of the Italian state is to try to get Ryanair into court for aledged tax charges in an attempt to get some of this money to help prop up the endebted govenment. If this was such a moral issue why was it not started years back when Ryanair started bases in Italy ?
To me it looks like the govenment did not give a damm about Ryanair during the good times when thay had easy money flowing in but now they have to grab at any chance of income that they can and Ryanair is an easy target.
Now Finaly Dannyagilla will you get it out of your head that I am any sort of supporter of MOL, I don't like the product, I don't like the way he treats he's staff and I would not work for him. What I am is a pragmatic observer of the situation who supports anyone's right to do business as long as it is within the law as it stands.
You seem to have failed to understand that most tax law is based on case law, so untill tested in court almost all things are leagal, it has yet to be proved one way or the other if Ryanair are in contravention of Italian law ( on a personal basis I would rather like to see MOL convicted) but until the court had passed judgment MOL & Ryanair have done nothing wrong legally.
Simply by the vitriol of your reply it would seem that I have hit a raw nerve, but the fact of the matter is that the governments of the south of Europe embarked on an unwise spending spree during the good times ( no doubt to buy votes ) and this spending has come home to bite them.........or rather it has bitten very hard into the average citizens of these country's.
So the reaction of the Italian state is to try to get Ryanair into court for aledged tax charges in an attempt to get some of this money to help prop up the endebted govenment. If this was such a moral issue why was it not started years back when Ryanair started bases in Italy ?
To me it looks like the govenment did not give a damm about Ryanair during the good times when thay had easy money flowing in but now they have to grab at any chance of income that they can and Ryanair is an easy target.
Now Finaly Dannyagilla will you get it out of your head that I am any sort of supporter of MOL, I don't like the product, I don't like the way he treats he's staff and I would not work for him. What I am is a pragmatic observer of the situation who supports anyone's right to do business as long as it is within the law as it stands.
You seem to have failed to understand that most tax law is based on case law, so untill tested in court almost all things are leagal, it has yet to be proved one way or the other if Ryanair are in contravention of Italian law ( on a personal basis I would rather like to see MOL convicted) but until the court had passed judgment MOL & Ryanair have done nothing wrong legally.
Last edited by A and C; 22nd Jan 2013 at 09:36.