Hypocritical ?
PPRuNe Secret Agent!
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spot on Busta - "Seagull" Management - my previous company was Trafalgar Square then!!! - a sad fact when working with this level of quality of management; you are stuck with them! Usually because of previous history/reputation and almost certainly no-one else will employ them!
But their time is limited!
But their time is limited!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: House
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really don't think that many educated folk have an issue with the common theme running through many of the postings - self preservation. Of course it's a natural instinct and we all have it, just some more than others - we are all human after all!
The point I'm stressing is don't get too selfish, by putting emphasis on the word self. In order to protect your jobs, you need to play your part in a cost reduction programme. If IAG is to be a powerful global player then everyone, including myself, must look to help the company reduce the overinflated cost base.
There's lots more meat to be taken off the bone before we're well and truly competitive. We all need to think outside the box, see where we can reduce costs and the future will be so much brighter for all.
The point I'm stressing is don't get too selfish, by putting emphasis on the word self. In order to protect your jobs, you need to play your part in a cost reduction programme. If IAG is to be a powerful global player then everyone, including myself, must look to help the company reduce the overinflated cost base.
There's lots more meat to be taken off the bone before we're well and truly competitive. We all need to think outside the box, see where we can reduce costs and the future will be so much brighter for all.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wonker,
You have been peddling this tripe for months since the demise of the BASSA action. Putting a 'I'm only trying to explain to you' condecending tone on it doesn't change the fact that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Your bluster during the cabin crew dispute is totally at odds with your current' reasoned' approach, enough so to make you seem a little irrelevant.
The position that YOUR previous department (by your own admission on the Cabin Crew thread) found itself in was that there had been no movement with the times, no rationalisation of working procedures, no modernisation of payment ideals etc. They left themselves so exposed when the facade of Union 'protection' (protection only for the very highest to get the very best paid trips) crumbled away.
The pilot workforce has constantly evolved over the years to ensure a competitive product for the company. The BACC is quite happy for the pilots to be benchmarked as we know we are competitive in the real world. Also, due to close working relationships with the company at a high level, any changes, proposed or implemented are done so at a joint level between the company and the BACC. We, as a group, are more than willing to change and evolve as time goes by, our past has shown such. But, of course, you're a 'manager' this week so that would all be obvious to you.
Very true, which is why the IAG head team have been spending so much time in Spain the past few months where the situation is 'difficult'. Also the number of personnel per airframe is disproportionate in IAG compared to some other carriers. What is interesting in this number is that the number of 'flying personell' e.g. Flight crew and Cabin crew are the same, it is back office staff and some ground staff that are excessive.
If you want to fly an airline safely you need safe hands at the controls of the aircraft. Many say that customers vote to the cheapest ticket. In many cases this is true but, in the case of corporate companies and high value employee's the Airlines safety record and professionalism is also a major concern. BA is one of these, just as Corporate Customer Services in Cranebank next time you are there. Don't believe me? Then why has Siemens banned all corporate travel within Europe on RYR? Not because of poor decisions from the crew in fuel policy but because of the abhorrent management processes that forced those crews into making those fuel choices in the first place.
Very few airlines can afford a hull loss.
Want to trim the meat off? Bring down the ridiculously high number of inneffective and nebulous, blood sucking managers.
You have been peddling this tripe for months since the demise of the BASSA action. Putting a 'I'm only trying to explain to you' condecending tone on it doesn't change the fact that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Your bluster during the cabin crew dispute is totally at odds with your current' reasoned' approach, enough so to make you seem a little irrelevant.
The position that YOUR previous department (by your own admission on the Cabin Crew thread) found itself in was that there had been no movement with the times, no rationalisation of working procedures, no modernisation of payment ideals etc. They left themselves so exposed when the facade of Union 'protection' (protection only for the very highest to get the very best paid trips) crumbled away.
The pilot workforce has constantly evolved over the years to ensure a competitive product for the company. The BACC is quite happy for the pilots to be benchmarked as we know we are competitive in the real world. Also, due to close working relationships with the company at a high level, any changes, proposed or implemented are done so at a joint level between the company and the BACC. We, as a group, are more than willing to change and evolve as time goes by, our past has shown such. But, of course, you're a 'manager' this week so that would all be obvious to you.
There's lots more meat to be taken off the bone before we're well and truly competitive
If you want to fly an airline safely you need safe hands at the controls of the aircraft. Many say that customers vote to the cheapest ticket. In many cases this is true but, in the case of corporate companies and high value employee's the Airlines safety record and professionalism is also a major concern. BA is one of these, just as Corporate Customer Services in Cranebank next time you are there. Don't believe me? Then why has Siemens banned all corporate travel within Europe on RYR? Not because of poor decisions from the crew in fuel policy but because of the abhorrent management processes that forced those crews into making those fuel choices in the first place.
Very few airlines can afford a hull loss.
Want to trim the meat off? Bring down the ridiculously high number of inneffective and nebulous, blood sucking managers.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 12th Oct 2012 at 14:06.
When I got into commercial aviation, the limit was 1,000 hours per annum. The normal limit was 100 hours per month but it was possible to do 120 hours if you had a quick medical check-up at the 100 hour point.
When I started flying on the N-register, the rules were 100 hours in 30 calendar days up to a maximum of 300 in 90 days. It was quite legal to fly 120 hours in a 30 day period (international) as long as 300 in 90 was not exceeded.
I have it in my mind that the 900 hours per annum limit came in with JARs so are we not just going back to where we were?
Please don't get me wrong; I am not saying that this is a good idea but I do wonder if we are not going back 30 years.
When I started flying on the N-register, the rules were 100 hours in 30 calendar days up to a maximum of 300 in 90 days. It was quite legal to fly 120 hours in a 30 day period (international) as long as 300 in 90 was not exceeded.
I have it in my mind that the 900 hours per annum limit came in with JARs so are we not just going back to where we were?
Please don't get me wrong; I am not saying that this is a good idea but I do wonder if we are not going back 30 years.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: House
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I'm getting at is this: You need pilots to fly an airplane (Yeah. Really! Ask AA. Or defunct Eastern Airlines). You need the mechanics. You even need cabin crew. You don't really need managers. You want them, sure. but you don't need them.
truck
Ignore him/her - If I can't get a sensible response to my point about over cabin crew "back to backs", despite wonker being concerned about "bunching of work", you're not going to get anything meaningful back about Flight Safety.
I'm not sure how an ostrich can make so much noise with it's head stuck so firmly in the sand....
Ignore him/her - If I can't get a sensible response to my point about over cabin crew "back to backs", despite wonker being concerned about "bunching of work", you're not going to get anything meaningful back about Flight Safety.
I'm not sure how an ostrich can make so much noise with it's head stuck so firmly in the sand....
Last edited by wiggy; 13th Oct 2012 at 07:20.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The simple fact is that the FAA are going in the opposite direction and the results of any fatigue in the 'Euroland' system will be seen in tired pilots landing and taxying large jets around congested airfields and airspace in?????
America.
How long before the trans-atlantic pressure, quite rightly, begins to be applied?
Perhaps after a few ground collisions and a few, hopefully, near misses in the air the real world will wake up and realise that having tired people flying 200+ tonne aircraft into congested airspace is a little more difficult, tricky and dangerous than having a truck driver fall asleep at the wheel (truck drivers have more stringent safety regulations than we do now!).
America.
How long before the trans-atlantic pressure, quite rightly, begins to be applied?
Perhaps after a few ground collisions and a few, hopefully, near misses in the air the real world will wake up and realise that having tired people flying 200+ tonne aircraft into congested airspace is a little more difficult, tricky and dangerous than having a truck driver fall asleep at the wheel (truck drivers have more stringent safety regulations than we do now!).
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: U.K.
Age: 75
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Head stuck in the sand??
Wiggy, Quote:-" I'm not sure how an ostrich can make so much noise with it's head stuck so firmly in the sand...."
I am not quite so sure that it is sand in which the ostrich has its head so firmly stuck!
I am not quite so sure that it is sand in which the ostrich has its head so firmly stuck!
Last edited by FERetd; 13th Oct 2012 at 09:22.
WW, has it ever occured to you that on a strategic level, your leader, your namesake has made a blunder of monumental proportions by getting into bed with Iberia?
His 7 year tenure has been an unmitigated disaster for the owners of the business that you care so much about.
Maybe it is time for him (and you) to go.....
His 7 year tenure has been an unmitigated disaster for the owners of the business that you care so much about.
Maybe it is time for him (and you) to go.....
Last edited by RHINO; 13th Oct 2012 at 09:24.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: House
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
His 7 year tenure has been an unmitigated disaster for the owners of the business that you care so much about.
RHINO yes mistakes have been made along the way getting into bed with IB was not one of our best moves and WW must take a certain amount of blame for something i tend to agree with you to a degree. Stripping costs out of the business remains top of the priority list such an example would be market rate pay structures with flightdeck terms being a prime example. If you compare a BA Captains wage to that of say a Monarch Captain both capable of flying from A to B then you can notice who brings home a larger pay packet. Big changes on the way thats all i can say at this moment in time.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: House
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ignore him/her - If I can't get a sensible response to my point about over cabin crew "back to backs", despite wonker being concerned about "bunching of work", you're not going to get anything meaningful back about Flight Safety.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...............reduce the overinflated cost base...............
Take the Pilot and Cabin Crew salaries from 20 or 30 years ago and factor them by CPI/RPI.
Now take management salaries and bonuses from the same period and do the same.
Which ones come out as overinflated?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: House
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Generally management salaries are low and topped up with bonus/share options if challenging targets are met. Don't forget your pension is linked to your pensionable pay, just the basic element. Many nights are spent burning the midnight oil, sometimes for nothing. Plans and business cases put forward have more chance of not coming to fruition than be accepted, sometimes demoralising all concerned.
Compare that to someone who collects a basic wage up to £140,000pa and has a final salary pension of £80,000pa. It is incomprehensible how a carrier can continue to fund this in the present climate. Whilst you would like a comparison between management/flight/cabin crew, lets not ignore this is the big elephant that really needs tackling - the feather nest you're going to lay in when your wings are mantle piece ornaments.
Freeze the final salary scheme as of tomorrow for all and revert to a money purchase scheme - that's what would truly make us a world beating airline in the profitability stakes.
Compare that to someone who collects a basic wage up to £140,000pa and has a final salary pension of £80,000pa. It is incomprehensible how a carrier can continue to fund this in the present climate. Whilst you would like a comparison between management/flight/cabin crew, lets not ignore this is the big elephant that really needs tackling - the feather nest you're going to lay in when your wings are mantle piece ornaments.
Freeze the final salary scheme as of tomorrow for all and revert to a money purchase scheme - that's what would truly make us a world beating airline in the profitability stakes.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Middle England
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your real problems are in Spain. Unemployment at 25% and rising. Another bailout request coming next month. BA married the wrong airline.
It will take more than another 100 hours a year and a cut in pensions to get Willie out of this hole.
It will take more than another 100 hours a year and a cut in pensions to get Willie out of this hole.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is the product you are dealing with here? Moving passengers and/or cargo.
Who moves the product? Pilots and cabin crew.
Everything else in the business supports those functions. In descending order they are maintenance, airport staff and last are the worker bees at the head office. They are last and least needed. They should outsourced wherever possible and kept to a minimum head count. This includes HR, training and general office staff. They need to realize that without front line staff they have no job. Their sole function should be "how can I support the people moving the customers?"
Who moves the product? Pilots and cabin crew.
Everything else in the business supports those functions. In descending order they are maintenance, airport staff and last are the worker bees at the head office. They are last and least needed. They should outsourced wherever possible and kept to a minimum head count. This includes HR, training and general office staff. They need to realize that without front line staff they have no job. Their sole function should be "how can I support the people moving the customers?"
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: House
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My friend Jock, I totally agree with you - it's going to be challenging for the next 5 years. A Spanish bailout will not materially affect IB. If customer numbers drop together with yields and our cost cutting programme is not implemented then we're talking serious trouble, but all is in hand. As I've said on numerous occasions we all need to do our bit and there's still meat on the bone in BA. IB has hardly been touched yet.
I've every faith in Willie. He's steered us through tough times and I'm sure he'll still be here in 5 years to announce a £1 billion profit - that's our target!
I've every faith in Willie. He's steered us through tough times and I'm sure he'll still be here in 5 years to announce a £1 billion profit - that's our target!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: House
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They should outsourced wherever possible and kept to a minimum head count
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Working time directive
Waterside worker - you are fortunate in being covered by the working time directive of 48 hours per week - as incidentally are almost all other employees including I might add even Junior Doctors nowadays.
Sadly pilots and aircrew are one of the few exemptions under the current rules and so even without the new EASA limits my company according to our crewing agreement can roster me up to 55 hours duty per week and this is extendable to 60 hours if required by them.
I'm afraid I already think that being at the controls after 55 hours on irregular shift work is unwise. It is of course the nature of capitalists such as yourself to want to squeeze more and more out of the workforce in return for lower and lower wages and poorer terms and conditions. There are some - (and perhaps you're one of them) who would like us to go the whole hog and return to Victorian working practices for all, we could even start sending kids of 14 to work so that Captains of industry can pay themselves even larger salaries and bonuses than they already do. Happily to counteract this drive we have unions whose aim is to enhance conditions for the little man and try and get a more equal share of the pie and also a regulator, whose role is to promote safety through law which is of course likely to cost more.
I've been flying only six years since leaving a job in airline management and in that time have dealt with quite a lot of situations that demanded a high level of training and skill from pressurisation problems, flap failures, door warnings, lighting strikes, bird strikes, strong winds and electronics problems to more serious events like landing gear failure and a strong smell of electrical burning necessitating immediate return to the ground with a blue light reception. I can assure you that no spreadsheet or management conundrum ever stretched me to the very limits as much as these occasions. Given that fact I would really rather not be fighting tiredness and trying to think clearly when dealing with them and if your wife/child/Mother etc was on board I suggest they would rather like people like us to be well rested while trying to get them back safely on terra-firma.
There's a notion amongst airline managers, beancounters and the travelling public that we sit there all day everyday with the automatics in sipping coffee watching the Alps roll by, but as you can see from my litany of events above (in only 6 years), it's not always like that. The fact that there aren't smoking holes in the ground all over the place is because of the training and professionalism of aircrew coupled with a regulatory framework that provides some (but not in my view enough) protection from fatigue.
Sadly pilots and aircrew are one of the few exemptions under the current rules and so even without the new EASA limits my company according to our crewing agreement can roster me up to 55 hours duty per week and this is extendable to 60 hours if required by them.
I'm afraid I already think that being at the controls after 55 hours on irregular shift work is unwise. It is of course the nature of capitalists such as yourself to want to squeeze more and more out of the workforce in return for lower and lower wages and poorer terms and conditions. There are some - (and perhaps you're one of them) who would like us to go the whole hog and return to Victorian working practices for all, we could even start sending kids of 14 to work so that Captains of industry can pay themselves even larger salaries and bonuses than they already do. Happily to counteract this drive we have unions whose aim is to enhance conditions for the little man and try and get a more equal share of the pie and also a regulator, whose role is to promote safety through law which is of course likely to cost more.
I've been flying only six years since leaving a job in airline management and in that time have dealt with quite a lot of situations that demanded a high level of training and skill from pressurisation problems, flap failures, door warnings, lighting strikes, bird strikes, strong winds and electronics problems to more serious events like landing gear failure and a strong smell of electrical burning necessitating immediate return to the ground with a blue light reception. I can assure you that no spreadsheet or management conundrum ever stretched me to the very limits as much as these occasions. Given that fact I would really rather not be fighting tiredness and trying to think clearly when dealing with them and if your wife/child/Mother etc was on board I suggest they would rather like people like us to be well rested while trying to get them back safely on terra-firma.
There's a notion amongst airline managers, beancounters and the travelling public that we sit there all day everyday with the automatics in sipping coffee watching the Alps roll by, but as you can see from my litany of events above (in only 6 years), it's not always like that. The fact that there aren't smoking holes in the ground all over the place is because of the training and professionalism of aircrew coupled with a regulatory framework that provides some (but not in my view enough) protection from fatigue.
Last edited by Desk-pilot; 15th Oct 2012 at 21:30.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: U.K.
Age: 75
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Overstaffed!
Watersidewonker Quote:-"Which is why you will find that BA's employee count has reduced from 68000 to 32000 in 4 years - Impressive?"
Not really, it is obviously still overstaffed by at least one.
Not really, it is obviously still overstaffed by at least one.