Command Training

[saddest aviator]

Reading some of these posts makes me think that some captains have lost the skill of manipulation! Give your younger arrogant upstart the opportunity and rope to hang himself(metaphorically) offer the required advise, to get them out of the **** and then see what happens! The secret is not to talk too much! I'm only passing on the attitude that was demonstrated to me a good few years back when I was the afore mentioned upstart! Worked wonders. I was then asking my more experienced colleague for advise rather than assuming I knew it all. Most of the time allowing someone to embarrass themselves once safely I hasen to add works wonders. The trick is knowing what your limit is and never going beond that point. That sadly comes with wisdom and experience, which only time served and great mentoring can provide

[FliegerTiger]

saddest aviator,

I whole-heartedly agree. Throughout my career in the RHS so far, I've been offered advice if things go pear-shaped, and asked after a flight "what would you do differently if you made that approach again", etc.....
It's up to me what to do with this info in the end, & I like to think that I'm a pretty well-rounded pilot because I've taken it all on board.
But, as Stuck_in_an_ATR says, it depends a lot on the attitude of the FO in question.

[zeddb]

I am surprised by attitude of some of those guys, who think they can do whatever they want "'coz it's their sector"

Not really what I was trying to say chaps. We operate on a turn and turn about basis with all decisions made by the operating pilot being subject to final approval of the dude with 4 bars. He/she signs the tech log (although the FO can fill it in) and can overrule any decision or action if they see fit. Likewise the slave in the RHS can question the actions of the skygod on the left if they disagree or do not understand the reasoning (at a safe point in the flight ,obviously).

The rationale is to give the RHS as much opportunity as possible to act as P1 as far as they wish to do so. The idea being that a command course, should it ever happen, can concentrate on filling in the gaps rather than reinventing the wheel every time.

We don't have cadets in our outfit, everyone has jet time in thousands of hours so the supposed scenario of a 12 year old in shorts questioning the grizzled commander and acting like an extra from TopGun never arises. I myself am celebrating my 101st birthday soon and have perfected the art of bowing and scraping to my superiors who had better timing and luck than I did.

Hope that puts everyone at their ease.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

The secret is not to talk too much!

Have to agree with that (within reason of course). I do find that most of the inexperienced guys are much more open to feedback AFTER the facts (once I've rescued their botched approach). Exactly how far you let them go is a matter of opinion and circumstances, but I don't think they learn much if you give them a running commentary starting at top of descent.

That said, the recent economics of flight training seem to have brought along some pretty irritating attitudes. Only two days ago, my pre-flight briefing was welcomed with "yeah, all standard stuff mate, good work" by the 500 hour wonder. Sigh.

[737Jock]

Reading some of these posts makes me think that some captains have lost the skill of manipulation! Give your younger arrogant upstart the opportunity and rope to hang himself(metaphorically) offer the required advise, to get them out of the **** and then see what happens! The secret is not to talk too much!

Yeah but that doesn't happen when the guys are building in safety margin over safety margin. More often than not they come in low and are dragging it in, at least in my base. And most of them are really inexperienced guys.
The approach is not being botched up in any way or form. However the fuel is being burned and the landing time on the FMC is moving in the wrong direction.

For some reason a lot of these guys don't seem to get any pride out of a perfect idle descent.

To stop this you HAVE to talk.

To be honest I rather have that "arrogant" youngster who at least tries to make an idle descent and help him if needed, than bite my fingers while seeing inefficient arrivals.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

In my experience, what FOs hate the most is a Captain who is constantly telling them what to do. Offsetting that, what airlines hate most, and I can hardly blame them, is an aircraft commander who fails to command and allows a significant incident to occur. Like all these things, there is a balance - some captains are better than others at achieving it. There are extremes - the stroppy and difficult personality exists in both seats, sadly. I sometimes am staggered at the way in which young FOs have spoken to Captains who have attempted to bring correction to them in a reasonable manner. Part of that is cultural - we live in a 'no one can tell me what to do' world and that has permeated into many young people's thinking. The airline industry is completely hierarchical and has no concept of that - inevitably that leads to difficulty. The bottom line is the Captain must be the Captain and any FO who has ideas to the contrary needs to be advised of his errors very quickly and clearly. However, there are ways of being in charge and that is where many problems can be avoided. I tend to back the view that some scope should be given to letting the FO have his way as part of the training process. Clearly the situation should not be allowed to get out of hand, but again there is a balance. In my experience the FOs that bleat the most about the terrible Captains they have to fly with, go on to be the worst and most difficult Captains to fly with. The lacked self-awareness as FOs and, possibly not surprisingly, go on to lack self-awareness as Captains.

Regarding A37575's tales of the long-defunct Paramount Airways - I am just so glad that the days of ex-RAF Chief Pilots sorting out their ex-RAF mates are largely gone (I am ex-RAF by the way). You actually have to have some training now - that seems to me a good thing. Sure some good guys got through, but some total berks got through too, who should never have got near the command of a commercial aircraft. But they were 'good chaps' on the Squadron, so they of course were given good jobs and then promoted early. Much criticism has been levelled at the likes of Turkish Airlines and Korean Airways for such practices, where ex-mil guys get accelerated promotion ahead of their civilian contemporaries - the reality is that it is only in the last few years that we have moved away from that in the UK. Airlines are into training people - thank goodness that is the case. We should be proud of that rather than hark back to the days of the 'old boys' network'. Apart from obvious technical advances there is a reason why 30-hour Sopwith Camel pilots dropped out the sky in their droves, and a reason why commercial pilots generally do not - training, training and training. No one is born a pilot - to be successful and live long in the role seems to require a strange combination of aptitude, training, knowledge, skill, experience and judgement. To ensure the right mix of those qualities requires a good apprenticeship with excellent training - not always easy to find.

[dogtired2]

Had to laugh at "Flybe are the leaders" post at the start of this thread. Is that world leaders? On what do you base this statement. These kind of "we are the best" statements (in any field) are normally associated with people who have little knowledge of what is actually out there. My company has the best training system (out of four) that I have experienced (and I was promoted with Flybe's earlier incarnation). I would be surprised however if it were the best in England...let alone Europe.

[consultant]

Command Management

Leaving the entire operation to the other guy is not the same as mentoring... but how far should a normal line captain push?

Perhaps you could get the answer if you google "commandprep". Sounds like they may be able to answer that one.

[judge11]

I'd venture a theory that the length and complexity of a company's 'command course' is in direct proportion not only to the size of said company's HR empire but also the extent to which HR has infiltrated the flight operations department (with the whole-hearted backing of the bonus grabbers in the board room).

[Sciolistes]

asking for a 25nm final daft? Extending flaps at 30nm out? Pulling speedbrake when already below profile?

None of these things endanger the aircraft or its occupants.

Not dangerous as individual acts, but red flags in terms of competence, confidence and SA...and ergo potentially unsafe.