BA recruitment
Quidnunc, many of us would love to go and work for the likes of Easy or Go, maybe not Ryanair, but find ourselves trapped by the financial consequenses in terms of pension in particular.
All we can really do is hope that in the long term there will be a change of management and that we will be appreciated as the hard working and productive pilots that we are and not treated as an unfortunate expense.
At the moment BA management's incompetence is wasting all the productivity that we give them, and their sole concern seems to be to give our work to others in the form of franchises or subsiduaries. BAs one advantage over the competition is size, and by splitting their operation up into lots of smaller operations they give up this advantage.
BA management should look at how successful airlines run and try and emulate them. Unfortunately most BA management think that they are never wrong, and certainly will never admit it when they are.
I think that it is important for potential recruits to be warned what they are in for in terms of mismanagement.
All we can really do is hope that in the long term there will be a change of management and that we will be appreciated as the hard working and productive pilots that we are and not treated as an unfortunate expense.
At the moment BA management's incompetence is wasting all the productivity that we give them, and their sole concern seems to be to give our work to others in the form of franchises or subsiduaries. BAs one advantage over the competition is size, and by splitting their operation up into lots of smaller operations they give up this advantage.
BA management should look at how successful airlines run and try and emulate them. Unfortunately most BA management think that they are never wrong, and certainly will never admit it when they are.
I think that it is important for potential recruits to be warned what they are in for in terms of mismanagement.
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....ie: the gravy train has past the station and run off the tracks.
BA is woefully behind the times...and will never catch up...not in our lifetimes anyway.
Once a GREAT airline....now second fiddle...if that.
And this from a Yanks' perspective...anyone disagree?
BA is woefully behind the times...and will never catch up...not in our lifetimes anyway.
Once a GREAT airline....now second fiddle...if that.
And this from a Yanks' perspective...anyone disagree?
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Chilliray - try applying to BritishAirways CitiExpress. That's where the future probably lies. Not up to BA Ts and Cs, but then again, you can live in the regions. No huge aircraft, not above the RJ anyway, but the future looks bright.
Quidnunc, Jet 11, you are spot on. 411A, you have a point about the gravy train, but BACE are quite happy with granules thanks.
Quidnunc, Jet 11, you are spot on. 411A, you have a point about the gravy train, but BACE are quite happy with granules thanks.
Just a few thoughts on this subject.......(This is NOT an antagonistic post, I'm just trying to make a point and provoke some thoughts, so no insults please!)
My father was a flight engineer at BA/BOAC for 25 years (retd back in 87) He logged an average of 470 hours per year, which is only half of what you BA guys are doing now! However, his earnings in real terms were about half yours, due to the fact that for many years he was in the 80% income tax bracket, with sky high uncapped national insurance contributions. So, you see, its all relative. Yes its true that property was cheaper, but interest rates were also a lot higher, so mortgages were not as cheap as you think back then!
Son of Piltdown- quote "our job demands more respect these days than it ever did".....would you still say that if you were flying an underpowered, manually controlled, unreliable, low automation Boeing 707, into airfields with few basic navaids...? on three week trips, multi sector days with no flight time limitation regs?
I worked at BA as a maintenance engineer for several years, I was not happy there so I left to pursue a piloting career. If you are unhappy there then do something about it, or go elsewhere. If not, then please stop posting your angst here and just get on with your life, doing the best you can like the rest of us!... Its very sad to see BA pilots, who are still in a good position relative to many others, whinging about T's & C's. Okay, so the "golden years" of the 80's and 90's have gone, but virtually every airline is having to cut back now. Personally, as long as I can earn enough to have an "average" standard of living I am happy as a pilot. There are still multiple rewards in terms of kudos and personal satisfaction that are nothing to do with salary, pension etc....
My father was a flight engineer at BA/BOAC for 25 years (retd back in 87) He logged an average of 470 hours per year, which is only half of what you BA guys are doing now! However, his earnings in real terms were about half yours, due to the fact that for many years he was in the 80% income tax bracket, with sky high uncapped national insurance contributions. So, you see, its all relative. Yes its true that property was cheaper, but interest rates were also a lot higher, so mortgages were not as cheap as you think back then!
Son of Piltdown- quote "our job demands more respect these days than it ever did".....would you still say that if you were flying an underpowered, manually controlled, unreliable, low automation Boeing 707, into airfields with few basic navaids...? on three week trips, multi sector days with no flight time limitation regs?
I worked at BA as a maintenance engineer for several years, I was not happy there so I left to pursue a piloting career. If you are unhappy there then do something about it, or go elsewhere. If not, then please stop posting your angst here and just get on with your life, doing the best you can like the rest of us!... Its very sad to see BA pilots, who are still in a good position relative to many others, whinging about T's & C's. Okay, so the "golden years" of the 80's and 90's have gone, but virtually every airline is having to cut back now. Personally, as long as I can earn enough to have an "average" standard of living I am happy as a pilot. There are still multiple rewards in terms of kudos and personal satisfaction that are nothing to do with salary, pension etc....
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Private jet - stand by for flaming!
<I was not happy there so I left to pursue a piloting career. If you are unhappy there then do something about it, or go elsewhere. If not, then please stop posting your angst here and just get on with your life, doing the best you can like the rest of us!... >
This is a discussion forum, the topic is relevant to the forum and the thread contains valid contributions from active participants and employees of the companies in question.
You begin by posting your credentials, however you will find that any of us can post what we like on here, within reason. If you don't care for the subject matter you read, then in your words, go somewhere else and get on with your life.
BA pilots are perfectly entitled to whinge about T's & C's, just as you are to spout irrelevant drivel!
BA used to lead the field in pilot t&c. This is no longer the case. If you find our 'whinging' sad, then you are perhaps too sensitive.
PS Roll on the return of the airline forums where we can discuss stuff in peace without uninformed and bigoted commentators butting in!
<I was not happy there so I left to pursue a piloting career. If you are unhappy there then do something about it, or go elsewhere. If not, then please stop posting your angst here and just get on with your life, doing the best you can like the rest of us!... >
This is a discussion forum, the topic is relevant to the forum and the thread contains valid contributions from active participants and employees of the companies in question.
You begin by posting your credentials, however you will find that any of us can post what we like on here, within reason. If you don't care for the subject matter you read, then in your words, go somewhere else and get on with your life.
BA pilots are perfectly entitled to whinge about T's & C's, just as you are to spout irrelevant drivel!
BA used to lead the field in pilot t&c. This is no longer the case. If you find our 'whinging' sad, then you are perhaps too sensitive.
PS Roll on the return of the airline forums where we can discuss stuff in peace without uninformed and bigoted commentators butting in!
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Private jet:-
>>would you still say that if you were flying an underpowered, manually controlled, unreliable, low automation Boeing 707, into airfields with few basic navaids...? on three week trips, multi sector days with no flight time limitation regs? <<
I believe the job is more demanding because the issues are more complicated these days. If our sole concern was safety then things would be relatively straightforward. As it is we contend with blame, employment concerns, career instability, management pressures, timekeeping and (very sadly) political correctness.
I have nothing but respect for earlier aviators; I do wonder though if life was a tad simpler for them.
SOP
>>would you still say that if you were flying an underpowered, manually controlled, unreliable, low automation Boeing 707, into airfields with few basic navaids...? on three week trips, multi sector days with no flight time limitation regs? <<
I believe the job is more demanding because the issues are more complicated these days. If our sole concern was safety then things would be relatively straightforward. As it is we contend with blame, employment concerns, career instability, management pressures, timekeeping and (very sadly) political correctness.
I have nothing but respect for earlier aviators; I do wonder though if life was a tad simpler for them.
SOP
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You hit the nail squarely on the head, SOP. Is the job harder or easier today? Who knows? All we do Know is that it is different. Sure we have v. sophisticated autopilots, but need them half the time due to the sheer density of traffic in the TMA. More today it is about being a competent manager of ones crew and the people on the ground (I've seen people do it well, and badly ,and the difference is amazing).
The trouble is these days, one works twice as hard as the 707 pilot, in terms of hrs, has more to worry about in terms of managing the people, and still has to have the capability to do that NDB approach in grotty weather into a grotty airfield.
Different, but not easier
The trouble is these days, one works twice as hard as the 707 pilot, in terms of hrs, has more to worry about in terms of managing the people, and still has to have the capability to do that NDB approach in grotty weather into a grotty airfield.
Different, but not easier
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Also as a DEP you will be treated by many Capt's and cabin crew as a young cadet with 200 hours ....
Joining with 5000+ hours doesn't even give you a 3rd stripe, you start at the bottom and clam your way up ..........
Anyone joining now in their 30's will never see a long haul command on the current seniority predictions ..... and will always be 'juniour trash' as a Capt. in the company ....
has huge implications to your roster and lifestyle ....
If its true that they have taken away the golden nugget of the final salary pension (paid at 55) .... well, thats the nail in the coffin ....
I wish a few years ago I had though a lot more carefully before jumping ship ......
Nigel !
Joining with 5000+ hours doesn't even give you a 3rd stripe, you start at the bottom and clam your way up ..........
Anyone joining now in their 30's will never see a long haul command on the current seniority predictions ..... and will always be 'juniour trash' as a Capt. in the company ....
has huge implications to your roster and lifestyle ....
If its true that they have taken away the golden nugget of the final salary pension (paid at 55) .... well, thats the nail in the coffin ....
I wish a few years ago I had though a lot more carefully before jumping ship ......
Nigel !
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Some people tend to forget that although the BA allowances are pretty good and produce a fairly reasonable end of month pay packet the actual amount that is contributed to your pension (company and personal contribution) is based on your basic salary - and BA basic salary is pretty poor and below market rates for anybody who has joined in the past few years.
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Plus if you are unfortunate enough to be taken ill you can kiss your allowances goodbye until you recover. Similar story if you undergo a conversion course, or take leave, or get a bad months roster.
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Which company then?
So then the $million question. Which company is the best to work for. So some of you think EasyJ. The only problem there is that once you reach command with extras (TRI ETC.) you still won't earn aything near a BA 744 captain????
Thoughts??
Thoughts??
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DAVROS - an easyJet Captain who is a line trainer and TRI would make a gross salary of around £81,000. Lucrative share options would also apply.
I agree a LH skipper at the top 5 pay points would make more. However, he probably spent 10 - 12 years in the RHS to get a LH command. His easyJet counter part maybe 4 years. Put the pay difference in a PEP/ISA/ for a decade and you will build up a powerful little investment portfolio useable for AVC's or whatever.
The low cost chappy probably didn't have to fund a mortgage in the SE England and its associated council taxes and general cost of living.
In fact a GO Fly Skipper based in - say - Glasgow who joined as an F/O and went to the LHS in year 4 would be much better off over an entire career than someone joining BA at EGLL and getting all the way to LHS Widebody. Bigger house, lower living costs, home every night, high morale.
Lets face it BA pays a hell of a lot less than AA, Delta, United for the same job. Ignoring remuneration the company does not appear a fun one to work for with pilots vs cabin crew vs management vs unions.
There are plenty of Ryanair Captains at EGSS earning 6 figures. 5 on 3 off and the most profitable airline in Europe. Who would want EOG over that?
PS
I agree a LH skipper at the top 5 pay points would make more. However, he probably spent 10 - 12 years in the RHS to get a LH command. His easyJet counter part maybe 4 years. Put the pay difference in a PEP/ISA/ for a decade and you will build up a powerful little investment portfolio useable for AVC's or whatever.
The low cost chappy probably didn't have to fund a mortgage in the SE England and its associated council taxes and general cost of living.
In fact a GO Fly Skipper based in - say - Glasgow who joined as an F/O and went to the LHS in year 4 would be much better off over an entire career than someone joining BA at EGLL and getting all the way to LHS Widebody. Bigger house, lower living costs, home every night, high morale.
Lets face it BA pays a hell of a lot less than AA, Delta, United for the same job. Ignoring remuneration the company does not appear a fun one to work for with pilots vs cabin crew vs management vs unions.
There are plenty of Ryanair Captains at EGSS earning 6 figures. 5 on 3 off and the most profitable airline in Europe. Who would want EOG over that?
PS
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Peter Skellan
This has come up in these forums before and I am still confused as to why BA pilots believe that their pay should be of a comparable nature to someone who works on the other side of the world.
The only comparisons that matter are with pilots in the UK doing the same job (Virgin, Easy, Go, BMI etc). Every person in any walk of life can cast around the world and find someone who does the same job as them and gets paid more, but to use that as a case for getting a pay rise is ridiculous.
BA pays a hell of a lot less than AA, Delta, United
The only comparisons that matter are with pilots in the UK doing the same job (Virgin, Easy, Go, BMI etc). Every person in any walk of life can cast around the world and find someone who does the same job as them and gets paid more, but to use that as a case for getting a pay rise is ridiculous.
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That comparision usually comes up when the BA propaganda machine starts labelling pilots as expensive whingers who are only concerned about their cheeseboard. If you want to look closer to home you'd find the BA package on long haul was also considerably less than in KLM, Air France and Lufthansa. The comparison is drawn because BA long haul is competing in a global market, not a domestic one, so its no use complaining your people are too expensive when your competitors people are even more so. BA pilots dont expect to earn the astonishing amounts some of the Americans do, but they do expect to earn comparable rates to our European competitors (who incidentally fly fewer hours and have more days off than us).
In terms of short haul, the BA package must currently be one of the least attractive of any large airline in Europe. I really don't see why anyone would want to live in London on a basic of £32K and wait 7 years for a command when you could earn much more much sooner in an affordable location with any of the low costs.
In terms of short haul, the BA package must currently be one of the least attractive of any large airline in Europe. I really don't see why anyone would want to live in London on a basic of £32K and wait 7 years for a command when you could earn much more much sooner in an affordable location with any of the low costs.
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Hand solo - if the BA pay and conditions are so bad, why is there no shortage of applicants for crew positions. Even before Sept 11th, when there was much more choice of employers who were recruiting, BA always had plenty of new applicants for crew positions.
It seems that there are many more pilots than positions available and the law of supply and demand will ensure that T & C's for the entire industry (not just BA) will never be as good as they once were.
It seems that there are many more pilots than positions available and the law of supply and demand will ensure that T & C's for the entire industry (not just BA) will never be as good as they once were.
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When things pick up for BA, there WILL have to be a re-rating of BA's salary scales. Anybody who rejects the company now may be left wishing they had taken a longer term view.
I feel that day may be sooner rather than later.
I feel that day may be sooner rather than later.
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If you join now and you are over the age of 35 you will never get a command. The demographics just won't work for you. Essentially there are nearly 2000 pilots under 35 in the airline already. There are 3600 positions. As an American would say...."You do the maths".
Sorry!
Sorry!
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Jet II - there was no shortage of applicants prior to September 11th, but there was a serious shortage of good applicants. In the past BA had a flood of applications from experienced jet pilots with many hours, all keen to move on to better things. That flood had become a trickle and the vast majority of applications were from low hours pilots with little if any jet time. Things might pick up a bit with redundancies post-Sept 11th, but as people have already said, why would you join BA why you can earn better money elsewhere, live where you want and be part of a rapidly growing company with all the opportunites that presents?