So you want to be a pilot!
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Also excellent points. However, I can see huge further leaps in automation to come. I do think there will always be two people at the pointed end. However their ability to influnce directly the opertion of the craft will diminish as will the T&C's for the people concerned.
The RHS could become a "monitoring" position. They could have minimum training to push the correct buttons to get aircraft on the ground in the event of an incapacitation.
Having seen some interesting transitions from air to ground in the last year or so I would suggest we are almost at this point.
BEA & BOAC for many years employed hamble cadets with very low hours on aircraft that were considerably more labour intensive and arguably harder to operate aircraft without too many problems (excepting PI perhaps?) for many years.
You also had a restricted take off and landing card to start with - only by day in light crosswinds in CAVOK with supervisory Captain and then with extra training the restrictions would be progressively reduced.
Compare this to the newbie cadet now who is thrown into the RHS of a two crew aircraft after minimal training!
By the way I was a Hamble cadet - the 18 month course there was second to none and included 50 hours in a basic Comet simulator (what we'd now call MCC I guess). Not everyone passed the course - if you didn't come up to the required standard (which was well above the minimum for a licence) you got the "chop". Hamble was designed to select and train future airline Captains - on the whole they did a good job.
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Robert Mugabe...And if the next time something like the QF32 happens (and it will eventually as techology is constantly pushed to the limits) and the crew only have an FO who could push buttons....???
Last edited by AirResearcher; 28th Sep 2012 at 04:42.
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Robert Mugabe...And if the next time something like the QF32 happens (and it will eventually as techology is constantly pushed to the limits) and the crew only have an FO who could push buttons....???
I am just suggesting that when automation gets better and more reliable the FO will be squeezed much the same way the flight engineers were made redundant by technology.
Where that leaves career progression who knows. When it can be demonstrated that single pilot ops with an observer is safe then that is what will happen. The great unwashed are driven by cost and safety.
If anything the main pilots renumeration could go up while the observers goes down.The downward movement of FO's terms seems to indicate that people are prepared to price themselves quite cheaply.
Last edited by Robert G Mugabe; 28th Sep 2012 at 07:14.
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Re my post 85.Heart & mindfelt apologies to our worthy Mods. My post was printed elsewhere.Cripes, only retired days ago & I am rapidly declining into a gibbering wreck. Keep up the great work Mods and..SOREEE.......... !
Oh and on thread, "So You Want To Be a Pilot?"; Please do not invest thousands of your own money on what has degenerated into a damn awful career. We had the best of the best in the 70's & 80's. It went downhill very rapidly after the cost-effective Accountants took the batton. My last few years were my unhappiest & I was laughed out of the Boardroom when I suggested to my employers that we start a proper, fully sponsored pilot Training programme where quality control would be back on the agenda.
Ok,must try & hit the "Submit reply" button rather than "Delete", "Reply to Mods", "Become a Mod"...........Aaaaah, bring back stick & rudder.
Oh and on thread, "So You Want To Be a Pilot?"; Please do not invest thousands of your own money on what has degenerated into a damn awful career. We had the best of the best in the 70's & 80's. It went downhill very rapidly after the cost-effective Accountants took the batton. My last few years were my unhappiest & I was laughed out of the Boardroom when I suggested to my employers that we start a proper, fully sponsored pilot Training programme where quality control would be back on the agenda.
Ok,must try & hit the "Submit reply" button rather than "Delete", "Reply to Mods", "Become a Mod"...........Aaaaah, bring back stick & rudder.
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Going back to page 1 and the posts about P2F and self-funded TR's...I completely disagree with both.
If people refused to pay for a TR, then airlines would have to fund it. Unfortunately there are too many people who are so desperate for a job in the right-hand seat, they stump up the cash because they just have no patience or quite simply have too much spare cash.
From what I have seen working at an Airport, a large number of the Pilot's that have paid for a TR appear to be daddy's little rich boys, so obviously paying £30,000 for a TR to get little Johnny his dream job is no problem.
I am of the opinion that airlines should pay for TR's and pay for you to go to work, not the other way round.
How many other jobs do you have to pay money up-front for your training, which is specific to that job? - Not any job i've had that's for sure!
If people refused to pay for a TR, then airlines would have to fund it. Unfortunately there are too many people who are so desperate for a job in the right-hand seat, they stump up the cash because they just have no patience or quite simply have too much spare cash.
From what I have seen working at an Airport, a large number of the Pilot's that have paid for a TR appear to be daddy's little rich boys, so obviously paying £30,000 for a TR to get little Johnny his dream job is no problem.
I am of the opinion that airlines should pay for TR's and pay for you to go to work, not the other way round.
How many other jobs do you have to pay money up-front for your training, which is specific to that job? - Not any job i've had that's for sure!
Last edited by Scott C; 28th Sep 2012 at 10:23.
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As long as people keep queuing up to part with £100k with no employment guarantees and knowing full well the downward trend in T&Cs, there is nothing that can be done to stop, let alone reverse, the current T&Cs.
Re Hamble - I wouldn't use a Hamble cadet and a CTC cadet in the same sentence; you're comparing night & day.
Re Hamble - I wouldn't use a Hamble cadet and a CTC cadet in the same sentence; you're comparing night & day.
If people refused to pay for a TR, then airlines would have to fund it. Unfortunately there are too many people who are so desperate for a job in the right-hand seat, they stump up the cash because they just have no patience or quite simply have too much spare cash
Originally Posted by Robert G Mugabe
My point is that button pushing is the norm.
Originally Posted by Robert G Mugabe
Unfortunately the accident you mentioned demonstrates that when the buttons cannot be pushed the modern generation were found wanting. Lets not speak ill of the dead however and but for the grace of god and all that.
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Not everyone passes CTC.
Almost all of the sim instructors at CTC are ex Hamble/BEA/BOAC/BA/Cathay Terrific/ex-GB/Monarch Fleet Managers and RAF.
Some of the best and most experienced trainers worldwide are teaching these cadets.
It's probably the best possible start if you get on jets early enough.
Almost all of the sim instructors at CTC are ex Hamble/BEA/BOAC/BA/Cathay Terrific/ex-GB/Monarch Fleet Managers and RAF.
Some of the best and most experienced trainers worldwide are teaching these cadets.
It's probably the best possible start if you get on jets early enough.
Last edited by Craggenmore; 28th Sep 2012 at 18:55.
The original poster fairly eloquently and openly described how how was suckered into the profession and concluded with a warning to others. I don't think he deserves some of the vitriol splashed across this thread. Some of you lads clearly paid for the ten minute argument when five minutes would suffice. 
I have also gone public, to a certain extent, with how I enter the profession and my concerns for my future within its hallowed ranks. I've taken flak but accept that much of it is fairly fired in my direction. Some of it is not.
I started training in late 2006 after carefully researching the profession by way of the Internet, by attending roadshows and, most importantly, by speaking to pilots flying the line. I spoke in depth with Captains and FOs at BA, Monarch, Thomson, Thomas Cook, Globespan, Titan, Ryanair, Cathay and others before I committed myself to any training. I am still friends with many of them.
Some of these guys were involved in management, one or two close to retirement, and included in this mix were both people who had funded their own training after other careers and ex-Hamble cadets. All these gentlemen were positive about joining the profession. All supported my final decision to join Ryanair in 2009 when the recession had both started and bitten hard (though it was the last resort and I'm not proud of it).
As a result, while I have been personally blamed for the downward spiral in T&Cs throughout the worldwide aviation industry, at least I did all the research before I spent any money and I don't feel that I had many realistic options. I chose to ignore the sales patter from CTC, OAA and their ilk even though the employment statistics reflected the general feeling within the industry. I didn't want to risk so much money and at the time I just wanted to fly 'aeroplanes' rather than only settling for 'shiny jets'.
However, I could take this altruistic and rather romantic attitude because I had spent 7 years in another highly-trained and lucrative profession before making the step. I was financially sound and am married to a professional lady. I was not risking my family's house. I was not risking my future.
As it turns out, I don't know whether I was lucky or not to get a job with Ryanair within months of leaving my FTO with my ticket. It is a poisoned chalice to be linked to that outfit! But I have earned a reasonable wage despite the awful T&Cs that MOL shoves down our throats. I also have enough hours for command. Yet I really pity anybody joining this company, or indeed profession, these days. I nevertheless see some talented and very personable cadets. Maybe they wouldn't all have passed Hamble selection, but modern jets are easy to fly to a reasonable standard and airmanship is primarily learned through experience. Some of the most experiences Captains with whom I fly still haven't 'got it'.
Had I done my research anytime post 2007 I would NOT have joined the aviation profession. I think the original poster's warning and the contributions of many on this thread should be included in the outside of any FTO brochure much as the cigarette industry must now warn of the dangers of their addictive product.
I have also gone public, to a certain extent, with how I enter the profession and my concerns for my future within its hallowed ranks. I've taken flak but accept that much of it is fairly fired in my direction. Some of it is not.
I started training in late 2006 after carefully researching the profession by way of the Internet, by attending roadshows and, most importantly, by speaking to pilots flying the line. I spoke in depth with Captains and FOs at BA, Monarch, Thomson, Thomas Cook, Globespan, Titan, Ryanair, Cathay and others before I committed myself to any training. I am still friends with many of them.
Some of these guys were involved in management, one or two close to retirement, and included in this mix were both people who had funded their own training after other careers and ex-Hamble cadets. All these gentlemen were positive about joining the profession. All supported my final decision to join Ryanair in 2009 when the recession had both started and bitten hard (though it was the last resort and I'm not proud of it).
As a result, while I have been personally blamed for the downward spiral in T&Cs throughout the worldwide aviation industry, at least I did all the research before I spent any money and I don't feel that I had many realistic options. I chose to ignore the sales patter from CTC, OAA and their ilk even though the employment statistics reflected the general feeling within the industry. I didn't want to risk so much money and at the time I just wanted to fly 'aeroplanes' rather than only settling for 'shiny jets'.
However, I could take this altruistic and rather romantic attitude because I had spent 7 years in another highly-trained and lucrative profession before making the step. I was financially sound and am married to a professional lady. I was not risking my family's house. I was not risking my future.
As it turns out, I don't know whether I was lucky or not to get a job with Ryanair within months of leaving my FTO with my ticket. It is a poisoned chalice to be linked to that outfit! But I have earned a reasonable wage despite the awful T&Cs that MOL shoves down our throats. I also have enough hours for command. Yet I really pity anybody joining this company, or indeed profession, these days. I nevertheless see some talented and very personable cadets. Maybe they wouldn't all have passed Hamble selection, but modern jets are easy to fly to a reasonable standard and airmanship is primarily learned through experience. Some of the most experiences Captains with whom I fly still haven't 'got it'.
Had I done my research anytime post 2007 I would NOT have joined the aviation profession. I think the original poster's warning and the contributions of many on this thread should be included in the outside of any FTO brochure much as the cigarette industry must now warn of the dangers of their addictive product.
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MikeHotel: Something like this perhaps?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ W A R N I N G ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~THIS ORGANISATION, ITS ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ASSOCIATES, SUBSIDIARIES, ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ PARTENERS & AFFILATES,~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~COULD DO SERIOUS LONG-TERM ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ DAMAGE TO YOUR WEALTH ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ W A R N I N G ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~THIS ORGANISATION, ITS ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ASSOCIATES, SUBSIDIARIES, ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ PARTENERS & AFFILATES,~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~COULD DO SERIOUS LONG-TERM ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ DAMAGE TO YOUR WEALTH ~ ~ ~ *
* ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Last edited by flyingpicket; 29th Sep 2012 at 21:37.
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Is it not concevable that within say 10 to 15 years, freight and mail may be flown by pilotless aircraft.
Last edited by bavarian-buddy; 30th Sep 2012 at 06:19.
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Doctors use their skills daily.
Pilots use their skills daily.
Doctors are not reexamined on a regular basis.
Pilots are.
There is one thing that is seemingly ignored by almost everyone in this discussion: the fact that Aviation is not what it was until about 30 years ago. It will never be the same again.
There was a time when flying was for the few. Most pilots came through the military, they learned to fly during the war(s). They were Officers and Gentlemen. The rest were wealthy enough to pay for civilian training. They still had to pay their dues but if they made it they were well regarded.
None of them would ever have considered paying to work, expecting to be kicked out when they were no longer "useful" (able to pay). They entered airlines to have careers which they were allowed to have because there was no other business model. There was a relatively small customer base, therefore a small number of airlines which could all survive without stepping on each other's toes.
There was only one sort of passenger: of a certain class, social standing and wealth. Relatively few people could afford to fly. Everybody else took the boat.
This is why Pilots were highly regarded and respected. They were skilled. Cabin Crew (female) were chosen for their looks and education. They were expected to meet a suitable husband amongst their passengers (see above).
The situation today is very different. Everybody can now buy a cheap ticket to some crap holiday destination with too much luggage and too much exposed, unsightly flesh. The airlines cash in on this business model, as they would be expected to do as businesses.
They are forced to find as many pilots as possible as quickly as possible, failing that as cheaply as possible.
I have seen some of the best pilots and some of the worst in small commuter airlines. I am willing to bet that it is the same in bigger airlines.
Not that glamour is the most important thing but, nevertheless, it has gone. The travelling public cares only for the ticket price. "I've got rights, me". Discovery Channel makes it easy for everyone to know what the pilots "should of done, he screwed it up, innit?" "Airplanes are so easy to fly, there's no skill required. Maybe a bit of FlightSim, that's all."
Some of you will be upset and will tell me that I can't say these things. I can because this is my point of view. We as humans have changed this industry and we have changed it for the worse. It will not return to what it was. This is why all of us need to enter into this with open eyes and a bit of understanding for why it is how it is.
No point in bleating about it. It has become a fairly ****ty, cut-throat business where many will be fleeced and discarded. It could be you, get used to it. Question things more and don't be afraid to tell people to get lost with their fancy ideas and promises if you don't agree with them.
Pilots use their skills daily.
Doctors are not reexamined on a regular basis.
Pilots are.
There is one thing that is seemingly ignored by almost everyone in this discussion: the fact that Aviation is not what it was until about 30 years ago. It will never be the same again.
There was a time when flying was for the few. Most pilots came through the military, they learned to fly during the war(s). They were Officers and Gentlemen. The rest were wealthy enough to pay for civilian training. They still had to pay their dues but if they made it they were well regarded.
None of them would ever have considered paying to work, expecting to be kicked out when they were no longer "useful" (able to pay). They entered airlines to have careers which they were allowed to have because there was no other business model. There was a relatively small customer base, therefore a small number of airlines which could all survive without stepping on each other's toes.
There was only one sort of passenger: of a certain class, social standing and wealth. Relatively few people could afford to fly. Everybody else took the boat.
This is why Pilots were highly regarded and respected. They were skilled. Cabin Crew (female) were chosen for their looks and education. They were expected to meet a suitable husband amongst their passengers (see above).
The situation today is very different. Everybody can now buy a cheap ticket to some crap holiday destination with too much luggage and too much exposed, unsightly flesh. The airlines cash in on this business model, as they would be expected to do as businesses.
They are forced to find as many pilots as possible as quickly as possible, failing that as cheaply as possible.
I have seen some of the best pilots and some of the worst in small commuter airlines. I am willing to bet that it is the same in bigger airlines.
Not that glamour is the most important thing but, nevertheless, it has gone. The travelling public cares only for the ticket price. "I've got rights, me". Discovery Channel makes it easy for everyone to know what the pilots "should of done, he screwed it up, innit?" "Airplanes are so easy to fly, there's no skill required. Maybe a bit of FlightSim, that's all."
Some of you will be upset and will tell me that I can't say these things. I can because this is my point of view. We as humans have changed this industry and we have changed it for the worse. It will not return to what it was. This is why all of us need to enter into this with open eyes and a bit of understanding for why it is how it is.
No point in bleating about it. It has become a fairly ****ty, cut-throat business where many will be fleeced and discarded. It could be you, get used to it. Question things more and don't be afraid to tell people to get lost with their fancy ideas and promises if you don't agree with them.
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Blueplume,
A very well-presented argument. Just a couple of points I would query though:
The first relatively cheap package holidays available to the common masses started in the late fifties and early sixties, with the Costa Brava being the destination of choice to impress your neighbours with your orange glow. So the scenario you are describing, is more like 50 years ago, and I’m sure you’ll agree that absolutely nothing is what it was 50 years ago.
The opening comment regarding the comparison with doctors, is in reference, I believe, to a remark made by ‘waco’, which in turn was a response to the following, posted by Prof. Rubik:
“If a junior doctor had the option to pay to bypass all of the years working nights in an A&E for low money and go straight in as a surgeon I bet they would do”.
…. the inference being that an FTO graduate is able to pay his way straight into the captain’s seat, which we all know is not the case (yet). There’s a hell of a difference between a surgeon and an FO, both in terms of remuneration and status. Spending years working nights in an A&E for low money with the hospital registrar on call if things get a bit sticky, is not that dissimilar to what the new crop of contract FOs are currently experiencing. As for the fact that doctors are not re-examined on a regular basis, well that’s true. But they are examined on an irregular basis if they make an incorrect decision which results in someone’s death, and which could result in them being ‘struck-off’. The main difference, however, is that the screw-up of an individual doctor is not likely to result in the demise of a few hundred people, and the associated aftermath of such an occurrence.
A very well-presented argument. Just a couple of points I would query though:
The first relatively cheap package holidays available to the common masses started in the late fifties and early sixties, with the Costa Brava being the destination of choice to impress your neighbours with your orange glow. So the scenario you are describing, is more like 50 years ago, and I’m sure you’ll agree that absolutely nothing is what it was 50 years ago.
The opening comment regarding the comparison with doctors, is in reference, I believe, to a remark made by ‘waco’, which in turn was a response to the following, posted by Prof. Rubik:
“If a junior doctor had the option to pay to bypass all of the years working nights in an A&E for low money and go straight in as a surgeon I bet they would do”.
…. the inference being that an FTO graduate is able to pay his way straight into the captain’s seat, which we all know is not the case (yet). There’s a hell of a difference between a surgeon and an FO, both in terms of remuneration and status. Spending years working nights in an A&E for low money with the hospital registrar on call if things get a bit sticky, is not that dissimilar to what the new crop of contract FOs are currently experiencing. As for the fact that doctors are not re-examined on a regular basis, well that’s true. But they are examined on an irregular basis if they make an incorrect decision which results in someone’s death, and which could result in them being ‘struck-off’. The main difference, however, is that the screw-up of an individual doctor is not likely to result in the demise of a few hundred people, and the associated aftermath of such an occurrence.