Can I be contacted on a day off?
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Am I missing something here? I have an hour to get to work - how I choose to organise my time up to the minute the phone rings is up to me, as long as I embrace my responsibilities in being fit to operate. More fool you people who get up and strut around the house in your uniform, I hit snooze for 10 minutes after the call 
What is wrong with crew control calling you on an off day? If they do, you can choose to answer or not. No big deal!
What is wrong with crew control calling you on an off day? If they do, you can choose to answer or not. No big deal!
Put it this way, it is up to us to plan our lives so that we get enough sleep within the constraints of our rosters.
However, if the Company call you before your standby has commenced then clearly your rest period has been interrupted and is, in my opinion, not in accordance with the FTLs.
I'm being practical.
As irishpilot1990 has previously stated this can affect the WOCL and whether or not you have done an early previously is irrelevant.
It seems we will have to agree to disagree - what you deem to be practical I would see as a breach of FTL. How far do we take this? How would you feel if the Company called you an hour before standby commencement? Where do you draw the line? This is precisely why limits were introduced in the first place.
If there was an incident, or worse an accident, and it was proven that your preflight rest had been compromised because of an early call from the Company then I think I know who would be held responsible.
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In my company they dont care about calling you on off day. Our company mobile needs to be on. If you refuse, you can bet you have a "red point" and with the next lay off...guess what. I already have some of those points and you know what..... i don't care anymore. SOOOOOO fed up i'am with this company and their lack of respect. Even offday pay is seriously reduced.
Last edited by Stick35; 13th Jul 2012 at 17:48.
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FR DO call at 10pm the night before an early stby and DO call at 4am to advise you that you will be called out at 5. They DO call at 5am to advise that your original 9am duty has changed to a 6 report.
They do call at 5am on an off day to see if you're stupid enough to work a day off.
This isn't rumour, it's fact. 2 phones is the only answer.
They do call at 5am on an off day to see if you're stupid enough to work a day off.
This isn't rumour, it's fact. 2 phones is the only answer.
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Not at all. I respect the FTLs but I do not think being called an hour before your morning standby begins infringes those limitations.
I'm being practical. Put it this way, it is up to us to plan our lives so that we get enough sleep within the constraints of our rosters.
In those circumstances FTLs are unlikely to be relevant because my previous day's flying will have been an early shift.
I'm being practical. Put it this way, it is up to us to plan our lives so that we get enough sleep within the constraints of our rosters.
In those circumstances FTLs are unlikely to be relevant because my previous day's flying will have been an early shift.
It would be more practical to live closer to the airport.
How do you calculate your maximum FDP?
I apologise if I've given the wrong impression. I think the FTLs are extremely important but that it is usually possible to get enough rest even during the most challenging of rosters.
As for the actual EU Ops FTLS, the basic idea is that the length of preceding duty determines the rest period. During THAT period of time your rest is not to be interrupted, but it sounds like some people are suggesting the 'rest period' lasts until your next duty starts?
Unless you had a helluva day the previous duty period it is unlikely your rest period will end just at your next duty or standby begins. So, surely according to the FTLs the company are not in breach if they call you before your early standby starts?
Have I got this all wrong? If so, I stand corrected.
Oh, and, for the record, I wasn't suggesting that anybody get out of bed just because they're on standby! But if I am on a roster of 5 days of earlies, punctuated by a standby, I will get up early on the middle standby day to keep my body clock on the right lines. It helps if you have a baby who gets up at that time anyway...
Edited to point out to LSM that I know exactly how FTLs are calculated and you are deliberately misconstruing what I have said. Do I have to spell out everything to you?
Being called an hour before a standby commences does NOT infringe the FTLs unless the call is made during the Rest Period. The rest period starts when the last duty ends. Except as described above, it is rare in my line of work to have the duty, rest period and next duty so tightly packed.
As for the actual EU Ops FTLS, the basic idea is that the length of preceding duty determines the rest period. During THAT period of time your rest is not to be interrupted, but it sounds like some people are suggesting the 'rest period' lasts until your next duty starts?
Unless you had a helluva day the previous duty period it is unlikely your rest period will end just at your next duty or standby begins. So, surely according to the FTLs the company are not in breach if they call you before your early standby starts?
Have I got this all wrong? If so, I stand corrected.
Oh, and, for the record, I wasn't suggesting that anybody get out of bed just because they're on standby! But if I am on a roster of 5 days of earlies, punctuated by a standby, I will get up early on the middle standby day to keep my body clock on the right lines. It helps if you have a baby who gets up at that time anyway...
Edited to point out to LSM that I know exactly how FTLs are calculated and you are deliberately misconstruing what I have said. Do I have to spell out everything to you?
Being called an hour before a standby commences does NOT infringe the FTLs unless the call is made during the Rest Period. The rest period starts when the last duty ends. Except as described above, it is rare in my line of work to have the duty, rest period and next duty so tightly packed.
Last edited by Mikehotel152; 13th Jul 2012 at 19:59.
As for the actual EU Ops FTLS, the basic idea is that the length of preceding duty determines the rest period.
Last edited by fireflybob; 13th Jul 2012 at 19:59.
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The rest period is AT LEAST the length of the previous duty. Therefore, it does last until your next duty starts even if that time period is longer than your previous duty.
It is rest BEFORE your next duty.
If the company wants to contact you at a time before your next duty starts they should start your next duty earlier. If you see what I mean.
It is rest BEFORE your next duty.
If the company wants to contact you at a time before your next duty starts they should start your next duty earlier. If you see what I mean.
Forgive me fireflybob but it is my understanding that the FTLs in EU ops only speak of minimum rest periods.
What consutitutes a reasonable or desirable rest period is not what I was referring to.
What consutitutes a reasonable or desirable rest period is not what I was referring to.
LSM
I know that the Rest Period is the minimum period and that it starts when the last duty ends and must be completed before the next duty begins. All FDP calculators work on that basis: after input of block times it outputs the earliest time your can next be on duty. Therefore, what I have said above is correct. Except where your minimum rest has not yet been completed, a call before your next duty commences does not necessarily infringe the FTLs.
I know that the Rest Period is the minimum period and that it starts when the last duty ends and must be completed before the next duty begins. All FDP calculators work on that basis: after input of block times it outputs the earliest time your can next be on duty. Therefore, what I have said above is correct. Except where your minimum rest has not yet been completed, a call before your next duty commences does not necessarily infringe the FTLs.
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Being called an hour before a standby commences does NOT infringe the FTLs unless the call is made during the Rest Period. The rest period starts when the last duty ends. Except as described above, it is rare in my line of work to have the duty, rest period and next duty so tightly packed.
As you tell us you know exactly how FTLs are calculated then perhaps you can tell us exactly how long your maximum FDP is and how you arrives at that figure.
CAP 371 defines a "Rest period" as:-
A period of time before starting a flying duty period which is designed to give crew members adequate opportunity to rest before a flight.
Mikehotel152, so by your argument the subsequent flight duty period starts when minimum rest finishes after the previous duty?
I would suggest this would put many duty days off limits?
A period of time before starting a flying duty period which is designed to give crew members adequate opportunity to rest before a flight.
Mikehotel152, so by your argument the subsequent flight duty period starts when minimum rest finishes after the previous duty?
I would suggest this would put many duty days off limits?
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Stop being obtuse. We are talking about the legality of calls interrupting your sleep prior to an early standby not the technicalities of length of FDP reduction due to time already spent on standby before commencement of a subsequent duty.
Actually fireflybob, no I am not saying that.
As I did say, the traditional way of interpreting the regulations (and if I may say, the most logical) is to use the length of the preceding duty to determine how much a break you need, and to tack that on to the end of that duty. Any further rest before the next duty is a 'bonus'.
This interpretation still makes sense in the light of the words used in both CAP 371 and the EU ops source.
As I did say, the traditional way of interpreting the regulations (and if I may say, the most logical) is to use the length of the preceding duty to determine how much a break you need, and to tack that on to the end of that duty. Any further rest before the next duty is a 'bonus'.
This interpretation still makes sense in the light of the words used in both CAP 371 and the EU ops source.
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Depone, correct. You have to be on standby for at least 6 hours before that happens. Doesn't really fit in with an early call does it?!
If, for instance, you were on standby at 6am local and you were called at 6 what would be your allowable FDP for 2 sectors?
If you were on standby at 6 but they called you at 5 what would your allowable FDP be?
A - 12.25 hours
B - 10.25 hours
If you then go and do a 12 hour day are you operating illegally or into discretion or is that entirely acceptable?
If, for instance, you were on standby at 6am local and you were called at 6 what would be your allowable FDP for 2 sectors?
If you were on standby at 6 but they called you at 5 what would your allowable FDP be?
A - 12.25 hours
B - 10.25 hours
If you then go and do a 12 hour day are you operating illegally or into discretion or is that entirely acceptable?
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Much drivel being spouted here. If crew control needed to call you an hour before an early standy began to give you a heads up, then your standby duty should have been rostered to start earlier, but it didn't, so tough. You're either on standby or you're not and my phone will be off until my standby begins. I have once had them call me as soon as I switched it on to say 'we need you at the airport in 20 minutes, we've been trying to call you for the last 2 hours'. Well guess what, I wasn't on standby two hours ago, but I'll get there as soon as I can and within the one hour contracted standby report time.
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Our CEO probably would tell the regulator he thinks we should be available at any time day or night, that we are the most unproductive group of people he knows.
Maybe this happens elsewhere too
Last edited by usedtofly; 14th Jul 2012 at 08:47.
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I like the idea of the Nokia smart profile where you can make your phone go from silent to noisy at the start of standby. Those of us with dumb old iphones have to set the alarm, and then wake up and turn the phone on at 5.00 am, so we are back where we started, particularly if you only get called out just before 5.00 pm! (It happened to me).
Other option is leave the phone on, but that doesn't help when you reach across and pick it up, and only once you have been told of the duty do you look at the clock, and see that it it's only 4.00 am! Stupid of me, yes, but who is at their sharpest at that time of night?
Larrys: Stop defending the company in this effective increase to a 13 hour standby.
Thinly disguised aggression, as somebody called it? No disguise here, just too tired to go over to the white house to punch someone in the face...
Other option is leave the phone on, but that doesn't help when you reach across and pick it up, and only once you have been told of the duty do you look at the clock, and see that it it's only 4.00 am! Stupid of me, yes, but who is at their sharpest at that time of night?
Larrys: Stop defending the company in this effective increase to a 13 hour standby.
Thinly disguised aggression, as somebody called it? No disguise here, just too tired to go over to the white house to punch someone in the face...
Just to add fuel to the fire, i do know some operators out there that (unofficially of course!) expect 24/7 SBY duties to be enacted - kind of ruins the idea of turning the phone on/off at certain times.......
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@16024, Thais why I'm really looking forward to the next iOS version which will include similar stuff like the old Nokia time profiles in its do not disturb schemes.