Monarch Anyone?
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As Much as I respect B@B's opinion, I must sincerely disagree with much of what he says. easyJet may well be everything it wasnt whilst I was there.
Monarch may well be expanding at completely the wrong time (although I disagree) but if im completely honest, i would rather take my chances with Monarch than easyJet. Personally, easyJet is not a company that I would like to be associated with any longer than was absolutely necessary. I'm sure you will give us a reason why easyJet is a long term better prospect than Monarch, but from a personal perspective easy offers non of the lifestyle family options that it previously prided itself on.
Monarch is offering UK bases, however much you feel it is the problem of the candidate, wanting to live in the country of his birth (shock, horror!), it is much more than what is offered by easy or anyone else.
It is difficult to sit by and listen to, people from companies that treat there employees terribly , belittle other airlines when all they have is a general knowledge of said companies.
Monarch are an excellent company, I have flown for both. I found easy to be unbelievably frustrating and during my 3 years there I can honestly say I never had any pride in flying for the company. I was given the option and I decided to gamble on Monarch over the prospect of a long term career at easyJet. Bar one person, everyone who joined easyjet with me (24) has now left. I think that says a lot about everyones perception of a career at easyJet (except perhaps yourself)
Monarch may well be expanding at completely the wrong time (although I disagree) but if im completely honest, i would rather take my chances with Monarch than easyJet. Personally, easyJet is not a company that I would like to be associated with any longer than was absolutely necessary. I'm sure you will give us a reason why easyJet is a long term better prospect than Monarch, but from a personal perspective easy offers non of the lifestyle family options that it previously prided itself on.
Monarch is offering UK bases, however much you feel it is the problem of the candidate, wanting to live in the country of his birth (shock, horror!), it is much more than what is offered by easy or anyone else.
It is difficult to sit by and listen to, people from companies that treat there employees terribly , belittle other airlines when all they have is a general knowledge of said companies.
Monarch are an excellent company, I have flown for both. I found easy to be unbelievably frustrating and during my 3 years there I can honestly say I never had any pride in flying for the company. I was given the option and I decided to gamble on Monarch over the prospect of a long term career at easyJet. Bar one person, everyone who joined easyjet with me (24) has now left. I think that says a lot about everyones perception of a career at easyJet (except perhaps yourself)
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Sadly, like most threads on PPRune, this has degenerated into slagging everyone else off. Also, people end up replying to what has not been said rather than what has been said. I have not the slightest doubt that Monarch is a great place to work, but that is not the issue. If you have no type-rating then clearly Monarch has its advantages. Historically, there has been a long wait for commands, simply because people do like it and do not leave.
I see the airline industry like a game of 'Musical Chairs', where the name of the game is to be on the strongest chair when the music stops. Looking around at the situation in Europe generally, and the airline industry in particular, in my view the music is about to stop in a big way. My judgement is that Monarch and Virgin would be vulnerable to becoming casualties under those circumstances - I hope I am wrong, but that is my view nonetheless. Therefore, my own perspective is that to leave easyJet, on a flexicrew contract or not, to join Monarch is a very imprudent move. I say that for a variety of reasons, ranging from the fact that Monarch has a very old fleet compared to easyJet's (call me a sad loser, but I like to fly new aircraft straight out the factory) through to their financial position. Relatively speaking, easyJet is in a very strong position financially, and is well-positioned compared to most airlines in Europe. A further factor is that historically the time to command at easyJet has been significantly shorter than that at Monarch or Virgin. Finally, there is the opportunity to work many places in Europe. Monarch can definitely offer an intro to long haul for those that want it, so that is clearly a notable plus point in their favour.
So, let us consider the dreaded flexicrew issue, which is the source of such angst among our cadets. I have to say that I have enormous sympathy for their plight. What easyJet has done in alienating these young pilots is simply ridiculous and utterly reprehensible. The mere fact they could think of going to Monarch tells its own story. Nonetheless, I have to say that their judgement is being unwisely clouded in many cases into leaving because they erroneously believe that they have no future at easyJet. Every one of these guys will get a permanent contract, however frustrating the wait is. As I have said, if this was BA or Cathay, I would have a different view, but Monarch (or Virgin) are simply not in that league.
Regarding the comments a few pages back from HPBleed, I have met a number of people at Oxford, so forgive me if I am speaking to the wrong guy here! You rightly said I did not comment to you, as the die was cast and that was that. All I can tell you is that had you been my son, and I was doing everything in my power to act in your best interests beforehand, I would have advised you very strongly against going there. I fully accept that a salary of £117k for a 20 year Captain is very good (not hugely different from a 10 year captain at easyJet) - but no use whatsoever if it takes forever to get it or the Company goes bankrupt before it happens. Returning to my games illustration of earlier, I would also say that the airline industry is akin to 'Snakes and Ladders', whereby you throw the dice and hope to land on the best square. Any of us who have been around a long time know that you sometimes think you made a great move only to discover that the six you just threw to get on square 99 instead sent you down a huge snake to square 24. Similarly the 2 you just threw can put you at the bottom of a massive ladder and you jump to square 87 from square 12. The bottom line is you do not always know the good deals and the bad deals when you make the choices - it is only later the truth comes out. You are clearly taking a long term view of your decision to go to Monarch, and if you have weighed up the pros and cons then good luck to you. Having made the choice you made to go to Monarch, I truly wish you nothing but the best and a great career there. The fact I am not confident of their future, does not mean that I do not wish all the guys/gals there anything other than the very best of good fortune.
So, please hear what I and others are saying. No one is slagging off Monarch or saying it is not a great fun place to work. There are, however, enough negatives to make me question the wisdom of an easyJet pilot going there. If I am wrong, then I am wrong - I frankly hope I am.
I see the airline industry like a game of 'Musical Chairs', where the name of the game is to be on the strongest chair when the music stops. Looking around at the situation in Europe generally, and the airline industry in particular, in my view the music is about to stop in a big way. My judgement is that Monarch and Virgin would be vulnerable to becoming casualties under those circumstances - I hope I am wrong, but that is my view nonetheless. Therefore, my own perspective is that to leave easyJet, on a flexicrew contract or not, to join Monarch is a very imprudent move. I say that for a variety of reasons, ranging from the fact that Monarch has a very old fleet compared to easyJet's (call me a sad loser, but I like to fly new aircraft straight out the factory) through to their financial position. Relatively speaking, easyJet is in a very strong position financially, and is well-positioned compared to most airlines in Europe. A further factor is that historically the time to command at easyJet has been significantly shorter than that at Monarch or Virgin. Finally, there is the opportunity to work many places in Europe. Monarch can definitely offer an intro to long haul for those that want it, so that is clearly a notable plus point in their favour.
So, let us consider the dreaded flexicrew issue, which is the source of such angst among our cadets. I have to say that I have enormous sympathy for their plight. What easyJet has done in alienating these young pilots is simply ridiculous and utterly reprehensible. The mere fact they could think of going to Monarch tells its own story. Nonetheless, I have to say that their judgement is being unwisely clouded in many cases into leaving because they erroneously believe that they have no future at easyJet. Every one of these guys will get a permanent contract, however frustrating the wait is. As I have said, if this was BA or Cathay, I would have a different view, but Monarch (or Virgin) are simply not in that league.
Regarding the comments a few pages back from HPBleed, I have met a number of people at Oxford, so forgive me if I am speaking to the wrong guy here! You rightly said I did not comment to you, as the die was cast and that was that. All I can tell you is that had you been my son, and I was doing everything in my power to act in your best interests beforehand, I would have advised you very strongly against going there. I fully accept that a salary of £117k for a 20 year Captain is very good (not hugely different from a 10 year captain at easyJet) - but no use whatsoever if it takes forever to get it or the Company goes bankrupt before it happens. Returning to my games illustration of earlier, I would also say that the airline industry is akin to 'Snakes and Ladders', whereby you throw the dice and hope to land on the best square. Any of us who have been around a long time know that you sometimes think you made a great move only to discover that the six you just threw to get on square 99 instead sent you down a huge snake to square 24. Similarly the 2 you just threw can put you at the bottom of a massive ladder and you jump to square 87 from square 12. The bottom line is you do not always know the good deals and the bad deals when you make the choices - it is only later the truth comes out. You are clearly taking a long term view of your decision to go to Monarch, and if you have weighed up the pros and cons then good luck to you. Having made the choice you made to go to Monarch, I truly wish you nothing but the best and a great career there. The fact I am not confident of their future, does not mean that I do not wish all the guys/gals there anything other than the very best of good fortune.
So, please hear what I and others are saying. No one is slagging off Monarch or saying it is not a great fun place to work. There are, however, enough negatives to make me question the wisdom of an easyJet pilot going there. If I am wrong, then I am wrong - I frankly hope I am.
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One of the roles of the CAA
Ozymandias thanks for the education. As you can see one of their responsibilities is targeting the culture that exists within our industry. So forgive me for using T&C in the statement I made.
Does this resonate better with you
Seems most UK pilots on these forums are really chuffed with the just and honest culture that the British Aviation Industry demonstrably is.
The CAA has a broad role in aviation and our primary objectives focus on:
Enhancing aviation safety performance by pursuing targeted and continuous improvements in systems, culture, processes and capability.
Enhancing aviation safety performance by pursuing targeted and continuous improvements in systems, culture, processes and capability.
Does this resonate better with you
A regulatory body that is ineffectual in maintaining the culture of the industry as a whole
Last edited by Robert G Mugabe; 12th Jun 2012 at 07:35.
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AdM, when intelligent and well educated people are disenfranchised and lied to by a self serving management structure, it really is not a big surprise to find them taking their chances elsewhere. The poisonous unjust culture that pervades easjet isn't worth hanging your career hat on for any money.
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Again, if I can try and bring sanity to this thread..
I note that the paper application forms have now been taken down, and an online HR system put in its place. However, there doesn't seem to be any openings when I search for pilots or any other combination that I would expect would throw up a result.
Has anyone else had any luck?
I note that the paper application forms have now been taken down, and an online HR system put in its place. However, there doesn't seem to be any openings when I search for pilots or any other combination that I would expect would throw up a result.
Has anyone else had any luck?
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It seems strange, I sent off a CV and cover letter last week and just completed the original 3 part application - however it wasn't very 'pilot orientated' so maybe they've realised and are putting up a new one and hopefully this one will be an online application?
Time will tell....
Time will tell....
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AdM,
Thankyou for your explanation - I have absolute respect for your opinions and indeed learnt a great deal from our sim sessions. Just some thoughts on your latest comments:
When I started training, CTC were placing people straight into the right hand seat at easyJet on a permanent contract with TR paid for -£1000 for 6 months (+flight pay) initially but then onto the full whack. I spent a very long time researching all of my options - RAF, OAA, FTE, sponsored schemes and of course CTC. CTC was quite clearly the best option to get that elusive job, but not only that, it was the only available option at the time to get unsecured finance and hence the reason I chose it. Halfway through training the path changed and it was now flexicrew, plus paying for a TR. This was meant to be a"temporary" measue to get the airline through the recession and volcanic ash problems. 2.5 years later flexicrew is still here and now includes pretty much ALL the FO's in the UK.
easyJet have now overcrewed as they know they don't need to pay their FO's if they're not flying which results in low hours - I did around 600 last year, 400 of which were over summer.
So, even though I had never wanted to borrow money from my parents I have had to - this winter - after 2 years of flying for easyJet as a supposed First Officer. Do you have any idea how demoralising that is? How stressful relyign on your girlfriend and parents to buy your food, petrol etc. I have never had ANYTHING from easyJet - not a medical, not uniform, not LOL, no pension or health care.
I disagree. I never applied for Europe for a couple of reasons - one of which was that in the application it said to not apply if you wanted a UK basing. The other that my girlfriend earns more than me and luckily we can afford to stay in this country even on a flexicrew wage - most of the year anyway. We got engaged and I did not want to spend that engagement apart from here after spending a year in New Zealand apart. Give it another couple of years and yes I probably would have applied for Europe. Now it is too late, Europe is oversubscribed with flexi pilots attempting to get a permanent contract. Very few people are coming back to the UK as the money is so good on the continent. I earnt around £30k last year, which after you take off my loan repayments leaves very little.
As I said previously what happens in another 2 years when the next round of upgrades are due but all the FO's are on flexicrew? I will eat my old polyester easyJet uniform if flexicrew captains are not flying in 3 years. BALPA will not be able to stop it. Even if they do, it'll be for a reduced B scale command as seen lately in Lisbon. The future is not so rosy for easyJet.
I have not gone to Monarch purely for the money. Already, the base manager at LGW knows my name (some may NOT like that!) and I have got to know 3 or 4 of the trainers pretty quickly.
No-one knows Monarchs full financial situation but the owners have a net wealth of well over $2.5bn. A little more than easyJet. Monarch are making massive moves to streamline their operation and improve costs and the difference is that the crews WANT to help because they enjoy looking after their own airline - unlike eJ. There is a fleet replacement plan being implemented as we speak - and anyway, you and I both know how many electrical faults there are with the new airbuses!
Time to command doesn't bother me. Historically people would take over ten years anyway, after 2 years of flying I feel like I am only jsut starting to feel comfortable and can easily see another 5 or 6 years going by learning something new every day. Monarch have had bases in other countries throughout Europe before and there is nothing to say they won't in their future expansion.
I don't like your analogy of musical chairs or snakes and ladders. Both these games are down to luck. Only part of the aviation game is luck - I've weighed up my options and am making the most of my luck.
I couldn't face another year on flexicrew and I just don't see the happy future that you see with permanent contracts and quick commands.
Thankyou for your explanation - I have absolute respect for your opinions and indeed learnt a great deal from our sim sessions. Just some thoughts on your latest comments:
When I started training, CTC were placing people straight into the right hand seat at easyJet on a permanent contract with TR paid for -£1000 for 6 months (+flight pay) initially but then onto the full whack. I spent a very long time researching all of my options - RAF, OAA, FTE, sponsored schemes and of course CTC. CTC was quite clearly the best option to get that elusive job, but not only that, it was the only available option at the time to get unsecured finance and hence the reason I chose it. Halfway through training the path changed and it was now flexicrew, plus paying for a TR. This was meant to be a"temporary" measue to get the airline through the recession and volcanic ash problems. 2.5 years later flexicrew is still here and now includes pretty much ALL the FO's in the UK.
easyJet have now overcrewed as they know they don't need to pay their FO's if they're not flying which results in low hours - I did around 600 last year, 400 of which were over summer.
So, even though I had never wanted to borrow money from my parents I have had to - this winter - after 2 years of flying for easyJet as a supposed First Officer. Do you have any idea how demoralising that is? How stressful relyign on your girlfriend and parents to buy your food, petrol etc. I have never had ANYTHING from easyJet - not a medical, not uniform, not LOL, no pension or health care.
Every one of these guys will get a permanent contract, however frustrating the wait is.
As I said previously what happens in another 2 years when the next round of upgrades are due but all the FO's are on flexicrew? I will eat my old polyester easyJet uniform if flexicrew captains are not flying in 3 years. BALPA will not be able to stop it. Even if they do, it'll be for a reduced B scale command as seen lately in Lisbon. The future is not so rosy for easyJet.
I have not gone to Monarch purely for the money. Already, the base manager at LGW knows my name (some may NOT like that!) and I have got to know 3 or 4 of the trainers pretty quickly.
No-one knows Monarchs full financial situation but the owners have a net wealth of well over $2.5bn. A little more than easyJet. Monarch are making massive moves to streamline their operation and improve costs and the difference is that the crews WANT to help because they enjoy looking after their own airline - unlike eJ. There is a fleet replacement plan being implemented as we speak - and anyway, you and I both know how many electrical faults there are with the new airbuses!
Time to command doesn't bother me. Historically people would take over ten years anyway, after 2 years of flying I feel like I am only jsut starting to feel comfortable and can easily see another 5 or 6 years going by learning something new every day. Monarch have had bases in other countries throughout Europe before and there is nothing to say they won't in their future expansion.
I don't like your analogy of musical chairs or snakes and ladders. Both these games are down to luck. Only part of the aviation game is luck - I've weighed up my options and am making the most of my luck.
I couldn't face another year on flexicrew and I just don't see the happy future that you see with permanent contracts and quick commands.
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I just submitted my application ok. Although it is a little strange. A lot of the areas don't give much explanation or ability for expansion. I hope the attached CV does the job!
Well put HP bleed. A couple of things, it would appear all 3000 of Monarchs employees are giving it there all for the changes that are going on to see the future success of the Group. They all know the industry and the trials and tribulations that it is going through. It does not surprise me that large numbers of Easy people have joined Monarch and they continue to do so. They are in the main young, bright and know the duff deal Easy Jet has them on. Monarch if nothing else is straight forward. If Monarch did sail off into the sunset they will get another job. Better to enjoy what your doing in the meantime and be respected for it. Finally I find it odd that Jet 2 has not been mentioned in this thread.....could have sworn it's fleet is a lot older than Monarch's!
Good luck to all who apply, it is a great place to work.
Good luck to all who apply, it is a great place to work.
Last edited by RHINO; 12th Jun 2012 at 10:26.
