Finally! Someone talking sense.
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Finally! Someone talking sense.
Finally someone with a bit of authority, experience and courage to speak a bit of sense about the parlous state of a pilot's lot! I hope that some of you can find it in yourselves to support GAPAN as they seem to be the only one of several professional pilot's representative bodies publicly and vocally opposing the scourge of pay to train, and pay to fly schemes plaguing our industry, and reducing the professional status of a pilot to one of a comedy cash cow.
Status of Professional Pilots
Jun 7, 2011
“WOULD ENGINE DRIVERS PAY FOR THEIR OWN JOB TRAINING?”
“YOUNG PILOTS TREATED AS AN OVERRATED RESOURCE”
Safety is being jeopardised by the aviation industry’s reluctance to assist in the training costs for pilots
The drive for greater recognition of the status of professional pilots gains momentum after a rousing speech by the Master of the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators.
Speaking at the Guild’s Livery Dinner at Drapers Hall, Captain Wally Epton spoke openly about the major issues affecting today’s professional pilots prompting an overwhelming show of support from the 200 guests in attendance.
Since taking over as the Master of the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators, Wally has made it his aim to improve the training aid to future pilots and to also maintain the status of current professional pilots.
Wally suggested to The Hon Theresa Villiers MP and the Minister of State for Transport, who attended the dinner, a means by which she could help with her Department’s newly announced plans to cut costs on the railways.
“Why not for example, ask guards or engine drivers to pay for their own training before earning their salaries?” Wally asked. “Or better still allow the train operating companies to charge drivers for the privilege of driving trains, during their probationary period.”
While Capt. Epton acknowledged that it sounds nonsensical and could you just imagine the Unions’ reaction, worryingly there are many young pilots in the aviation industry who are being forced to do just that. Aspiring commercial pilots are forced to embark on self-funded Pay 2 Train and even Pay 2 Fly programmes to qualify for their jobs.
He said: “Operators, the Department for Transport and even the regulators need to look urgently at the value of British pilots to our economy. The general public might appreciate that skillful and well-trained pilots are essential to the safe conduct of their flight, but it would seem that amongst government officials, aviation management and to a lesser extent with regulators, pilots are increasingly being treated as an overrated resource.”
Wally’s speech not only addressed the issues facing qualified pilots but also those training to become a pilot. Airlines do not pay to train their pilots. Instead youngsters pay for it themselves, having to find upwards of £70,000 and complete their training with no guarantee of a job at the end of it. Wally is concerned for these youngsters who enter the industry with huge financial worries right at the start of the career when they should be free from distractions to learn their craft of flying safely and professionally.
“The love of aviation is driving these young people to self-fund their training in one of the most professional industries in the world,” he says. “Yet it is being abused by those who should know better.”
He adds. “The Department for Transport, the Civil Aviation Authority and the Airlines claim safety is their first priority and yet safety is already being jeopardised by this present situation.”
To show that this is a problem unique to aviation, Wally spoke of how other companies invest in their employees yet the airline industry has stepped out of that chain. He commented, “Top companies in UK PLC include training as part of their remit, including the offer of internships and on-going training in industry. We need to change the way that the aviation industry and government treats pilots and redress the balance in quality of life.”
The Guild has been doing what it can to address these problems by providing scholarships and campaigning for the approval of flight training as an official form of further education. This approval would allow VAT to be removed saving trainees thousands of pounds. The Guild has also been urging aircraft operators to accept responsibility for type rating training.
Wally said, “We will continue to do what we can, but the aviation industry has to accept its responsibilities towards the cost of advanced flying training and recurrent training to ensure skilled pilots are there to fly the aeroplanes the public want to travel in.”
Jun 7, 2011
“WOULD ENGINE DRIVERS PAY FOR THEIR OWN JOB TRAINING?”
“YOUNG PILOTS TREATED AS AN OVERRATED RESOURCE”
Safety is being jeopardised by the aviation industry’s reluctance to assist in the training costs for pilots
The drive for greater recognition of the status of professional pilots gains momentum after a rousing speech by the Master of the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators.
Speaking at the Guild’s Livery Dinner at Drapers Hall, Captain Wally Epton spoke openly about the major issues affecting today’s professional pilots prompting an overwhelming show of support from the 200 guests in attendance.
Since taking over as the Master of the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators, Wally has made it his aim to improve the training aid to future pilots and to also maintain the status of current professional pilots.
Wally suggested to The Hon Theresa Villiers MP and the Minister of State for Transport, who attended the dinner, a means by which she could help with her Department’s newly announced plans to cut costs on the railways.
“Why not for example, ask guards or engine drivers to pay for their own training before earning their salaries?” Wally asked. “Or better still allow the train operating companies to charge drivers for the privilege of driving trains, during their probationary period.”
While Capt. Epton acknowledged that it sounds nonsensical and could you just imagine the Unions’ reaction, worryingly there are many young pilots in the aviation industry who are being forced to do just that. Aspiring commercial pilots are forced to embark on self-funded Pay 2 Train and even Pay 2 Fly programmes to qualify for their jobs.
He said: “Operators, the Department for Transport and even the regulators need to look urgently at the value of British pilots to our economy. The general public might appreciate that skillful and well-trained pilots are essential to the safe conduct of their flight, but it would seem that amongst government officials, aviation management and to a lesser extent with regulators, pilots are increasingly being treated as an overrated resource.”
Wally’s speech not only addressed the issues facing qualified pilots but also those training to become a pilot. Airlines do not pay to train their pilots. Instead youngsters pay for it themselves, having to find upwards of £70,000 and complete their training with no guarantee of a job at the end of it. Wally is concerned for these youngsters who enter the industry with huge financial worries right at the start of the career when they should be free from distractions to learn their craft of flying safely and professionally.
“The love of aviation is driving these young people to self-fund their training in one of the most professional industries in the world,” he says. “Yet it is being abused by those who should know better.”
He adds. “The Department for Transport, the Civil Aviation Authority and the Airlines claim safety is their first priority and yet safety is already being jeopardised by this present situation.”
To show that this is a problem unique to aviation, Wally spoke of how other companies invest in their employees yet the airline industry has stepped out of that chain. He commented, “Top companies in UK PLC include training as part of their remit, including the offer of internships and on-going training in industry. We need to change the way that the aviation industry and government treats pilots and redress the balance in quality of life.”
The Guild has been doing what it can to address these problems by providing scholarships and campaigning for the approval of flight training as an official form of further education. This approval would allow VAT to be removed saving trainees thousands of pounds. The Guild has also been urging aircraft operators to accept responsibility for type rating training.
Wally said, “We will continue to do what we can, but the aviation industry has to accept its responsibilities towards the cost of advanced flying training and recurrent training to ensure skilled pilots are there to fly the aeroplanes the public want to travel in.”
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Then it is encumbent on us pilots to make the message heard to both regulators and employers, and to support GAPAN and Captain Epton where the unions, especially BALPA, have woefully sold us down the river.
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Code:
. “Why not for example, ask guards or engine drivers to pay for their own training before earning their salaries?” Wally asked. “Or better still allow the train operating companies to charge drivers for the privilege of driving trains, during their probationary period.” While Capt. Epton acknowledged that it sounds nonsensical and could you just imagine the Unions’ reaction....
You guys just don't get it!
What if guards and drivers agreed to pay, and were literally queueing up to pay? And what if the drivers union said "sure go ahead we don't care."
So why don't they? At the end of the day, if it were forced on the drivers they'd just get a different job, a jobs a job at the end of the day. Its common sense! Anyone would do the same !......except the ones who want to be pilots.
The nonsensical thing is Wannabe pilots, all common sense and reason go out the window for the chance to fly a shiny jet. Until that changes P2Fly is here to stay.
What's nonsensical is why you continue to allow it whilst blaming other people.
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Clunk I think we do get it. The youngsters and new entrants to the industry don't get it, and seem to think that is the only way to get ahead. And maybe for the moment it is. There isn't single party to blame here. One thinks that's what they need to do, and the other takes advantage of it, and so the cycle goes on. But do you think that it's good for the industry, and the profession in the long run? I don't, and I think that I need to do something to protect myself in this industry in the future or else I will find myself being passed over in favour of the new intake with a stupidly large overdraft, or a massive debt: why pay me a salary when they can get someone to pay them to do the work? This is exactly the sort of process that fuelled the recession of 3 years ago.
Whether you are a new and spiring pilot or and established old hand you owe it to yourself, your colleagues, and the future of our profession to do something about it.
Clunk and mikehotel are displaying exactly the sort of suppine attitude that allowed this practise to become quite so widespread.
Whether you are a new and spiring pilot or and established old hand you owe it to yourself, your colleagues, and the future of our profession to do something about it.
Clunk and mikehotel are displaying exactly the sort of suppine attitude that allowed this practise to become quite so widespread.
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A good start would be to require a full ATPL and at least 1500 hours before allowing a RHS jet airliner rating and at least 5000hrs total with 2500hrs RHS of jet transport cat aircraft before LHS!
Mind you where I come from F/Os have 5000-10000 hrs and Captains 10000-15000 hrs before making Captain.
Mind you where I come from F/Os have 5000-10000 hrs and Captains 10000-15000 hrs before making Captain.
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My position is far from supine.
And I still don't think that you (that is the majority of pilots and wannabe pilots) get it.
Absolutely spot on. Firestorm, you do 'get it'.
But, The point I am trying to make is illustrated by the fact that you have to post the above statement. This should be a given. It should not need to be spelled out to people. Everyone, collectively, should have been, and should be continuing to do this. The fact that it does need to be spelled out to people means that people still don't 'get it'.
I'm not criticising you or anyone personally, I am saying that everyone should know without having to be told they have a responsibility to themselves and their industry, whatever that industry may be.
Train driver do 'get it', and that's one reason why the same situation would never arise in that industry.
And I still don't think that you (that is the majority of pilots and wannabe pilots) get it.
Whether you are a new and spiring pilot or and established old hand you owe it to yourself, your colleagues, and the future of our profession to do something about it.
But, The point I am trying to make is illustrated by the fact that you have to post the above statement. This should be a given. It should not need to be spelled out to people. Everyone, collectively, should have been, and should be continuing to do this. The fact that it does need to be spelled out to people means that people still don't 'get it'.
I'm not criticising you or anyone personally, I am saying that everyone should know without having to be told they have a responsibility to themselves and their industry, whatever that industry may be.
Train driver do 'get it', and that's one reason why the same situation would never arise in that industry.
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Good on Captain Epton for at last speaking out about the plight of today's airline pilots. It's just a damning shame that the governing bodies around the world, along with the unions, have sat on their fat backsides & done nothing to stop the deterioration of this extremely responsible job. So long as cost is a factor that will always drive standards to the lowest that the airlines can, 'get away with,' it is up to the authorities & unions to stop the rot & they have systematically failed to do so for well over a decade now.
It's far from being just P2F either, how about fatigue inducing patterns; less days off with our families; the blame culture; outrageous airport security; money worries that detract the pilot from the task in hand; uncaring, uncompromising & inexperienced crewing departments? All of these things go largely unnoticed & unchecked by the powers that be.
It's far from being just P2F either, how about fatigue inducing patterns; less days off with our families; the blame culture; outrageous airport security; money worries that detract the pilot from the task in hand; uncaring, uncompromising & inexperienced crewing departments? All of these things go largely unnoticed & unchecked by the powers that be.
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where I come from F/Os have 5000-10000 hrs and Captains 10000-15000 hrs before making Captain
And if I now have a lot more than that, can I now have a job over there? (Coffs Harbour would be nice).
Sorry, what was that..?
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Talking sense and getting anyone who cares or is even remotely interested is another thing.. these so call " government bodies" we scorn are the same people we give free travel and VIP status to, they are the people whom the airlines grease to oil the wheels of approvals. We should forget the whole PTF debate, it's never going to stop, and airlines don't give a monkeys where they get crew from it's all down to cost and " training risk". I work with a number of " selected" cadets and probably about the same number of PTFs, and frankly, the PTFs seem to be more work orientated and professional, maybe as they have more to loose, but that's another debate. If I count the cost of divorce I will be paying to fly for the rest of my natural and beyond! E-centric you have spent time in sharpe's end and can see through the turds and recognise how the industry is sinking to new depths, work patterns, hotac and crew meals are in rapid decline, my morning roll is now apparently 150gm bread as this is "Healthy" my, arse, it's just to save the cost of two normal rolls.. it's an outrage. But sadly, some old fart speaking at a dinner is not going to change a thing.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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In 20 years time the job of airline pilot will resemble that of sailing instructor in terms of pay. Sad fact is: it is perceived as desirable hence (we all) want the job. Pay will only ever go down as a result. Some airlines raise the bar for entrants and still pay lower wages in comparison to 10 years ago. Supply and demand chaps. We have had this conversation many times over the years but it will only ever get worse. There really isn't much that can be done other than a change of law in some respect - don't ask me exactly how.
Hats off to the GAPAN Captain - at least it's a push in the right direction from someone with some clout.
I always said right from the start of my 'career' that for a seemingly professional industry to require a supposedly sane person to stump up the kinds of cash required to enter the profession, it kinda makes a mockery of the sound psychological requirement to do the job. Ironic in the extreme!
Hats off to the GAPAN Captain - at least it's a push in the right direction from someone with some clout.
I always said right from the start of my 'career' that for a seemingly professional industry to require a supposedly sane person to stump up the kinds of cash required to enter the profession, it kinda makes a mockery of the sound psychological requirement to do the job. Ironic in the extreme!
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Dear Wally,
You're known for not accepting BS. Damn good job in speaking up, keep the momentum going.
Oh and congrats on being Grand Master
You're known for not accepting BS. Damn good job in speaking up, keep the momentum going.
Oh and congrats on being Grand Master
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I tried to talk to Ms Villiers recently about a lot of the concerns facing the industry, her communications skills frankly are appalling, I didnt get a reply for almost 6 months despite regular reminders, and when she did it was the lamest, most patronising letter I have ever received from one of her (written by one of her minions/colleagues).
I have since learned from many people who deal with her on a regular basis that she is singularly uninterested in commercial aviation in any way shape or form to the extent of being hostile whenever the subject is raised.
Her attitude is appalling and frankly she should be relocated to a department where she can be more objective.
I have since learned from many people who deal with her on a regular basis that she is singularly uninterested in commercial aviation in any way shape or form to the extent of being hostile whenever the subject is raised.
Her attitude is appalling and frankly she should be relocated to a department where she can be more objective.
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I've been a regular reader of this site for a while now and would dearly love to have a job flying any type of commercial aircraft. I've probably got the aptitude to do it, have the right work ethic and am prepared to work hard. What i'd never be prepared to do though is fork out several tens of thousands of pounds for the privilege of getting to the point where I MIGHT get a job with an airline - not that I could afford it anyway. It's such a shame that those of us who love aviation but don't have the wealthy parents are excluded from a rewarding career flying.
I really do sympathise with those of you already in the industry seeing your T&Cs erroded by those who are hell bent on getting themselves neck deep in debt just to be able to say they're a pilot. Hope it changes and maybe one day I can change my career too - at my age though it looks like i'll be firmly resigned to sitting in the back.
I really do sympathise with those of you already in the industry seeing your T&Cs erroded by those who are hell bent on getting themselves neck deep in debt just to be able to say they're a pilot. Hope it changes and maybe one day I can change my career too - at my age though it looks like i'll be firmly resigned to sitting in the back.
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with regard to the current government's playground attitude to transport, ie, train good, plane bad it's not surprising that the minister is not interested. Given that aviation is a net contributor to the tax payer as opposed to the opposite with railways, it shows how stupid this current viewpoint is.
Aviation is a global business, the UK's economy is a global business and if we carry on discouraging people from visiting the UK, investing in the UK, or even simply transiting the UK, surely even a minister of Villiers' educational credentials will eventually work out what will result.
Aviation is a global business, the UK's economy is a global business and if we carry on discouraging people from visiting the UK, investing in the UK, or even simply transiting the UK, surely even a minister of Villiers' educational credentials will eventually work out what will result.
Firestorm, my attitude is not supine. As the account of Ms Villers' attitude to her own department shows, the government simply doesn't care about our industry. That's not quite the same as suggesting we stick our heads in the sand and accept their indifference.
I'm currently reading James Hamilton-Paterson's book Empire of the Clouds in which he laments the demise of the British aerospace industry. The fervent post-war public belief that Britain led the world in aircraft design in the early 50s was matched by a government that understood the crucial role of aviation in the economy. Nobody then would comprehend how the mighty industry has since fallen.
I'm currently reading James Hamilton-Paterson's book Empire of the Clouds in which he laments the demise of the British aerospace industry. The fervent post-war public belief that Britain led the world in aircraft design in the early 50s was matched by a government that understood the crucial role of aviation in the economy. Nobody then would comprehend how the mighty industry has since fallen.
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RB311, totally agree with you.
I dont think the Govt are able to take a wise, holistic view on how the UK is affected by not being at the forefront of integrated transport, or the damage APD is having on the wider economy...
I dont think the Govt are able to take a wise, holistic view on how the UK is affected by not being at the forefront of integrated transport, or the damage APD is having on the wider economy...
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wrote to the EASA in 2010 about P2F scam.
answer was something like that:" we dont give a ****, not our problem , ask your CAA"
we have to wait for a big crash over london, killing thousand of people. 2 planes crashing on a big school, best the UK CAA...
but I bet, they are brainless and won't do anything.
I hate P2F!!!and these morons who pay!
I bet these little lazy bastards won't give me money to clean my toilet or fix my car...
don't worry captain, they will replace you with a P2F captain.The gangrain will continue...
answer was something like that:" we dont give a ****, not our problem , ask your CAA"
we have to wait for a big crash over london, killing thousand of people. 2 planes crashing on a big school, best the UK CAA...
but I bet, they are brainless and won't do anything.
I hate P2F!!!and these morons who pay!
I bet these little lazy bastards won't give me money to clean my toilet or fix my car...
don't worry captain, they will replace you with a P2F captain.The gangrain will continue...
