Talking sense and getting anyone who cares or is even remotely interested is another thing.. these so call " government bodies" we scorn are the same people we give free travel and VIP status to, they are the people whom the airlines grease to oil the wheels of approvals. We should forget the whole PTF debate, it's never going to stop, and airlines don't give a monkeys where they get crew from it's all down to cost and " training risk". I work with a number of " selected" cadets and probably about the same number of PTFs, and frankly, the PTFs seem to be more work orientated and professional, maybe as they have more to loose, but that's another debate. If I count the cost of divorce I will be paying to fly for the rest of my natural and beyond! E-centric you have spent time in sharpe's end and can see through the turds and recognise how the industry is sinking to new depths, work patterns, hotac and crew meals are in rapid decline, my morning roll is now apparently 150gm bread as this is "Healthy" my, arse, it's just to save the cost of two normal rolls.. it's an outrage. But sadly, some old fart speaking at a dinner is not going to change a thing.