Anyone interested in the Profession anymore?
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Sometimes I find it hard to get motivated and enthusiastic about this profession, but in these economic times I don't think that any profession is having a particularly easy time of it. I think a lot of people are having to look further afield, and to accept a lower salary than they had before just to keep going. It's hard enough getting on in your own field of experience, much less trying to change careers at present. It's ****, but pilots aren't the only ones.
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Slasher.... 100% correct
Good post
And yes - EK pay more for my services than others, but I chose to live in Dubai anyway. Had enough of the high tax rip-off I was subjected to back in the UK!!!!!! Nor will I leave EK if another airline offers me more 'cos I like it here...
Good postAnd yes - EK pay more for my services than others, but I chose to live in Dubai anyway. Had enough of the high tax rip-off I was subjected to back in the UK!!!!!! Nor will I leave EK if another airline offers me more 'cos I like it here...
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I agree with your sentiments but all three of those examples are bad. All of those professions require a period of low/no pay in the form of internship; lawyer and architect or on job training such as a PGCE in the case of a teacher.
Reality is everyone has to start somewhere but companies are taking advantage of this and it is no longer a career with a structure because if you pay you can skip a step. Those in the self improved route, instructing and air taxi jobs and then turbo props knew it was worth the short term pain because eventually you would end up on a jet and earn some money or were happy with the trade off of, lifestyle. Now you don't need to do any of that and bottom rung money is also on the jets, and the lifestyle has gone from regional work as well. There is no pay progression because of this or lifestyle progression because nobody demands it, we are all just happy to have a flying job, or are on old contracts and are all right jack. MPL making it cheaper to train will only make it worse, devaluing the qualification, / experience required not that it was much anyway.
Doctors, Lawyers and architects have to go through years of low pay and gain experience before the big money contracts come along. Unfortunately they also have people willing to pay to get the best internships in the best companies as well. But importantly they negotiate their own pay, and rely on proving their worth and not on collective bargaining negotiated by someone who may not have any personal investment in the outcome to ones pay deal. Collective bargaining is where teachers are similar to us. Now find me a teacher happy with their terms and conditions. May be we should start agreeing to performance related pay based on how efficient we are, bonuses for dealing with malfunctions and incidents, service recovery to passengers etc, how much fuel we save based on conditions agreed with a crew council. Red ringed pay for previous ratings or experience related pay based on more than just flying hours. If you've had several engine failures that you have dealt with successfully you get paid more than someone who hasn't. I'm playing devils advocate here but I think we need to get creative with the way we are paid and play the bean counters at their own game conditonsl pay rather than ask for the standard 5% pay rise.
I don't know what the answer is but being difficult to the new guys is not it. It has to come from the experienced pilots with an input to training and recruitment policy who have nothing to benefit from negotiating new contracts for new joiners but the knowledge they have looked out for and gone some way to securing a career for those younger and less experienced than them as others many years ago did for them.
I am thinking out loud if you disagree I welcome your thoughts.
Reality is everyone has to start somewhere but companies are taking advantage of this and it is no longer a career with a structure because if you pay you can skip a step. Those in the self improved route, instructing and air taxi jobs and then turbo props knew it was worth the short term pain because eventually you would end up on a jet and earn some money or were happy with the trade off of, lifestyle. Now you don't need to do any of that and bottom rung money is also on the jets, and the lifestyle has gone from regional work as well. There is no pay progression because of this or lifestyle progression because nobody demands it, we are all just happy to have a flying job, or are on old contracts and are all right jack. MPL making it cheaper to train will only make it worse, devaluing the qualification, / experience required not that it was much anyway.
Doctors, Lawyers and architects have to go through years of low pay and gain experience before the big money contracts come along. Unfortunately they also have people willing to pay to get the best internships in the best companies as well. But importantly they negotiate their own pay, and rely on proving their worth and not on collective bargaining negotiated by someone who may not have any personal investment in the outcome to ones pay deal. Collective bargaining is where teachers are similar to us. Now find me a teacher happy with their terms and conditions. May be we should start agreeing to performance related pay based on how efficient we are, bonuses for dealing with malfunctions and incidents, service recovery to passengers etc, how much fuel we save based on conditions agreed with a crew council. Red ringed pay for previous ratings or experience related pay based on more than just flying hours. If you've had several engine failures that you have dealt with successfully you get paid more than someone who hasn't. I'm playing devils advocate here but I think we need to get creative with the way we are paid and play the bean counters at their own game conditonsl pay rather than ask for the standard 5% pay rise.
I don't know what the answer is but being difficult to the new guys is not it. It has to come from the experienced pilots with an input to training and recruitment policy who have nothing to benefit from negotiating new contracts for new joiners but the knowledge they have looked out for and gone some way to securing a career for those younger and less experienced than them as others many years ago did for them.
I am thinking out loud if you disagree I welcome your thoughts.
Last edited by PaulW; 6th May 2011 at 14:42. Reason: iPad typing errors, sorry
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Agree, bad examples. When people go to see a lawyer they expect to pay a lot of money, same with taking on an architect or seeing a doctor (even if it is in the form of tax paid to the NHS). When people buy an airline ticket they expect to pay as little as possible hopefuly a tenner.
Also the training for these occupations is around 7 years. A CPL/IR can be done in under 12 months.
Also the training for these occupations is around 7 years. A CPL/IR can be done in under 12 months.
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Training for a CPL/IR may possibly take 12 months, but an ATPL can't be completed in a year, and surely, you can only really be considered as having "fully arrived" when you become a commander which takes even more time.
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Perhaps it would be fairer to say that in all walks of life the experience is gained with time in the job irrespective of Doctors, Lawyers, Pilots initial time to training.
The difference is that as you become Doctor, Surgeon, Consultant or Lawyer, Barrister, Judge your pay increses in line with your experience.
Sadly, with a variety of factors pressing down on our profession, the renumeration of pilots has changed little over the past 40 years. Ask anyone what a BOAC Captain earned in the 1950's it was £100,000. That bought alot back then, the 70s', 80s', 90s' etc it has remained the same whilst inflation has rapidly overtaken the purchasing power.
Welcome to the diminishing world of aviation.
The difference is that as you become Doctor, Surgeon, Consultant or Lawyer, Barrister, Judge your pay increses in line with your experience.
Sadly, with a variety of factors pressing down on our profession, the renumeration of pilots has changed little over the past 40 years. Ask anyone what a BOAC Captain earned in the 1950's it was £100,000. That bought alot back then, the 70s', 80s', 90s' etc it has remained the same whilst inflation has rapidly overtaken the purchasing power.
Welcome to the diminishing world of aviation.
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And once upon a time a pilot was never accepted into the RHS of anything in the majors,
And nota bene that these cadets were mainly taught by ex WWII Air Force pilots who, in some cases, were seeing active duty at the grand old age of 18 and commanding squadrons by 21.
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John R,
I fully understand your analogy. Unfortunately whilst the previous occupations mentioned have managed to retain their positions within the wage structure, by increasing net wages inline or above the rate of inflation, Pilots, be they Captains or First Officers (In my Airline the First Officer has to be qualified to exactly the same level as the Captain, they just haven't done the Captains Course), have been under constant pressure in a volatile environment where cost is king and the passenger flies, in general, with the carrier with the lowest ticket price.
Public Opinion is that the aircraft fly and land themselves and we are just there watching the dials/screens. In many respects we have become the victims of our own success in making our job look easy which, when done well irrespective of failures, ATC, Weather and other factors, does contain no little sense of professional pride.
Malfunction handling is like a Swan, serene on the surface portraying calm, paddling like buggery underneath to keep ahead of the current!!
I fully understand your analogy. Unfortunately whilst the previous occupations mentioned have managed to retain their positions within the wage structure, by increasing net wages inline or above the rate of inflation, Pilots, be they Captains or First Officers (In my Airline the First Officer has to be qualified to exactly the same level as the Captain, they just haven't done the Captains Course), have been under constant pressure in a volatile environment where cost is king and the passenger flies, in general, with the carrier with the lowest ticket price.
Public Opinion is that the aircraft fly and land themselves and we are just there watching the dials/screens. In many respects we have become the victims of our own success in making our job look easy which, when done well irrespective of failures, ATC, Weather and other factors, does contain no little sense of professional pride.
Malfunction handling is like a Swan, serene on the surface portraying calm, paddling like buggery underneath to keep ahead of the current!!
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Originally Posted by wirbelsturm
In many respects we have become the victims of our own success in making our job look easy
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Perhaps we should all be scanned for stubble before flying as well then! Presumably that would be before the compulsory alcohol breath testing as one might choose an extra splash of Old Spice if found lacking at the first hurdle...
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I used to love flying, then I got an airline job and everything changed for the worse.
I guess I'd better find another job anyway as I choose not to shave due sensitive skin. Now I know why some former colleagues always frowned at me, it all makes sense.
S.
I guess I'd better find another job anyway as I choose not to shave due sensitive skin. Now I know why some former colleagues always frowned at me, it all makes sense.
S.
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Is working for an airline that bad?
I have always idolized pilots and plan to become one when I'm older. I plan to follow in my grandfather's and my uncle's footsteps and become an 'aviator'. I avidly follow aviation websites/articles, spend more than 4 hours a week on the flight sim (mum hates that
) and am even choosing my school subjects to help me in the piloting world.
I plan to go through the cadet process to kick-start my piloting career. Mainly because it gives me job security and helps me to gain SIC of an airliner soon. I am also considering getting my Aviation Degree and then bush flying in order to get raw flying skills. It may be for peanuts but I believe it will give me more skills then doing the cadetship.
I don't really care about the money as much, as long as it covers my needs and the occasional splurge. The first time I flew an aircraft I loved it, that sense of taking to the air, being buffeted by a crosswind on landing and all the other experiences. I know kids that have the potential to be brilliant mathematicians or businessmen/women but prefer to be tradies as they love building and creating things. I think its the same in piloting, potential pilots do it because they love flying (well, the kids I know). I only have one life and I plan to enjoy it by doing the thing I love. At my school and in my circle of friends, they still hold pilots in high regard, thinking of them as smart, skilled professionals that do a great job. Much the same as my view.
I believe EK wants 700 pilots this year, with other airlines much the same. I would have thought that the pay-rate would be pretty high. Especially considering a Qantas pilot just bought a house in Melbourne's leafiest suburb for 2.5million. Judging from some articles/threads I have read, I believe working as a pilot in UK/USA is pretty poor, is it the same in Aus/Asia?
If flying for an airline is as bad as some people say, should I try corporate?
Any feedback or comments about my views/potential routes to flying/questions would be greatly appreciated.
If piloting is not for me then I guess I'll have to fall back on my reserve career: go across to the US and join the Marines
I have always idolized pilots and plan to become one when I'm older. I plan to follow in my grandfather's and my uncle's footsteps and become an 'aviator'. I avidly follow aviation websites/articles, spend more than 4 hours a week on the flight sim (mum hates that
) and am even choosing my school subjects to help me in the piloting world. I plan to go through the cadet process to kick-start my piloting career. Mainly because it gives me job security and helps me to gain SIC of an airliner soon. I am also considering getting my Aviation Degree and then bush flying in order to get raw flying skills. It may be for peanuts but I believe it will give me more skills then doing the cadetship.
I don't really care about the money as much, as long as it covers my needs and the occasional splurge. The first time I flew an aircraft I loved it, that sense of taking to the air, being buffeted by a crosswind on landing and all the other experiences. I know kids that have the potential to be brilliant mathematicians or businessmen/women but prefer to be tradies as they love building and creating things. I think its the same in piloting, potential pilots do it because they love flying (well, the kids I know). I only have one life and I plan to enjoy it by doing the thing I love. At my school and in my circle of friends, they still hold pilots in high regard, thinking of them as smart, skilled professionals that do a great job. Much the same as my view.
I believe EK wants 700 pilots this year, with other airlines much the same. I would have thought that the pay-rate would be pretty high. Especially considering a Qantas pilot just bought a house in Melbourne's leafiest suburb for 2.5million. Judging from some articles/threads I have read, I believe working as a pilot in UK/USA is pretty poor, is it the same in Aus/Asia?
If flying for an airline is as bad as some people say, should I try corporate?
Any feedback or comments about my views/potential routes to flying/questions would be greatly appreciated.
If piloting is not for me then I guess I'll have to fall back on my reserve career: go across to the US and join the Marines
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you make more money by not flying than flying these days.
staying unemployed at home is the future. you don't have to pay for fuel, car, t/r, line training, uniform,...you dont pay for interview, and you don't have to maintain your license current.
you stay relax at home, watch movies, drink beers, and the gov send your money directly on your bank account.
welcome in the new world of the winners!
losers want become pilot because they don't know to do anything else of their pitying life.
staying unemployed at home is the future. you don't have to pay for fuel, car, t/r, line training, uniform,...you dont pay for interview, and you don't have to maintain your license current.
you stay relax at home, watch movies, drink beers, and the gov send your money directly on your bank account.
welcome in the new world of the winners!
losers want become pilot because they don't know to do anything else of their pitying life.
Last edited by captainsuperstorm; 13th May 2011 at 05:03.
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I recall someone somewhere saying "What other job gives
you a multi-million dollar aeroplane, fills it full of free booze
and gorgeous single women, then sends you off out of town
in it?"
[/humor]
you a multi-million dollar aeroplane, fills it full of free booze
and gorgeous single women, then sends you off out of town
in it?"
[/humor]
Last edited by Slasher; 20th May 2011 at 02:56.
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I love being an airline pilot. I enjoy my job and find it rewarding, I get loads of time off at home with my family and earn enough money.
Anyone thinking they have it bad should try working in an office 9-5 for a few years.
Anyone thinking they have it bad should try working in an office 9-5 for a few years.
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Times have definately changed
Hi guys. Just been reading some of the comments.
I agree with alot of the comments. I remember when I started to pursue a career in aviation, the crew where on brilliant contracts, never needed to be type rated, had great pay scales and being a commercial pilot had a status above most.
By the time I qualified, had rung up a mortgage (for training etc) all these T and C's had gone. To get anywhere you needed to pay for a type rating or at least be bonded for 5 years. Again as time went by if you went and paid for a type rating with no job, the airlines wanted you to have at least 500 hours on type so just another obstacle to try get over.
If you did eventually get a job, it was only for the reason that you were going to be flying for peanuts and you paying for the rating/line training but hey you didnt mind because you needed the experience.
I think as the airlines caught onto this idea, it totally screwed up the whole profession. Everyone needed a type rating to which you had to pay for it and from there everything went down hill.
Dont get me wrong, if you have time on type and want to go live in Asia, (and not married of course) then there are good contracts to be had.
Like someone mentioned earlier in the post that they do it because they love flying and not for the money.....there is no money in it anymore.
As for the flying, when I started flying on the King Air and the Chieftain, it was probably some of the best flying I have ever done. Single Pilot wasnt great but what a way to gain command experience and good decision making when it all boils down to one person.......you.
Once on the jets, the flying became boring, 1000ft A/P came in and then sat back for 7 hours to disconnect the A/P to land. The destinations and stop overs became better as you were now flying further.
Times have changed but if you want money, forget about flying and become a plumber or Sparkie. I really wish flying had the status it used to have. Dont think it will change any time soon as most young guys want to be a Maverick so therefore pursue their dreams and so the circle of life of pilots continue.
I suppose as long as you can survive and pay your bills then go for it. We all love being in the air and at the end of the day that is the reason why birds sing!!
Happy Flying
I agree with alot of the comments. I remember when I started to pursue a career in aviation, the crew where on brilliant contracts, never needed to be type rated, had great pay scales and being a commercial pilot had a status above most.
By the time I qualified, had rung up a mortgage (for training etc) all these T and C's had gone. To get anywhere you needed to pay for a type rating or at least be bonded for 5 years. Again as time went by if you went and paid for a type rating with no job, the airlines wanted you to have at least 500 hours on type so just another obstacle to try get over.
If you did eventually get a job, it was only for the reason that you were going to be flying for peanuts and you paying for the rating/line training but hey you didnt mind because you needed the experience.
I think as the airlines caught onto this idea, it totally screwed up the whole profession. Everyone needed a type rating to which you had to pay for it and from there everything went down hill.
Dont get me wrong, if you have time on type and want to go live in Asia, (and not married of course) then there are good contracts to be had.
Like someone mentioned earlier in the post that they do it because they love flying and not for the money.....there is no money in it anymore.
As for the flying, when I started flying on the King Air and the Chieftain, it was probably some of the best flying I have ever done. Single Pilot wasnt great but what a way to gain command experience and good decision making when it all boils down to one person.......you.
Once on the jets, the flying became boring, 1000ft A/P came in and then sat back for 7 hours to disconnect the A/P to land. The destinations and stop overs became better as you were now flying further.
Times have changed but if you want money, forget about flying and become a plumber or Sparkie. I really wish flying had the status it used to have. Dont think it will change any time soon as most young guys want to be a Maverick so therefore pursue their dreams and so the circle of life of pilots continue.
I suppose as long as you can survive and pay your bills then go for it. We all love being in the air and at the end of the day that is the reason why birds sing!!
Happy Flying
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I love being an airline pilot. I enjoy my job and find it rewarding,
I get loads of time off at home with my family and earn enough
money.
I get loads of time off at home with my family and earn enough
money.
You might be with one of the last bastion of decent airlines remaining,
but don't get too comfortable and expect the holiday to last forever...
I have been a Professional Pilot since I was 18. Three years ago, when I was 45 I lost my medical at the height of my career.Despite all the sacrifices, for me there is simply nothing like flying for a living.
At that time I was employed as a Captain flying 757 and 767 Aircraft all over the world, to say I was happy would be a vast understatement.
I hope I will get my medical back this year, flying was and is my life and I have been lost without it.
At that time I was employed as a Captain flying 757 and 767 Aircraft all over the world, to say I was happy would be a vast understatement.
I hope I will get my medical back this year, flying was and is my life and I have been lost without it.