BA recruiting now for service pilots only.
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a first year Ryanair FO contractor takes home more than a middle seniority Flight Lieutenant on middle rate flying pay.
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There is way too much wringing of hands and nashing of teeth over this.
So BA are offering selection to a handful of military pilots. So what?
Throwing the discrimination word around is pretty pathetic and no doubt why we recently had some faceless bureaucrats decide that insurance companies can no longer offer cheaper premiums to female drivers based on the statistical fact that their total claim value is less than mens.
I don't see how anyone can, in any way, begrudge someone who has given up a significant portion of their life (is it 20 years?) to drag their family around the world to do a hugely demanding job for a relatively insulting wage from getting the chance to transfer those skills to a civilian environment.
Are BA saying they will never take non-service again? No. Will any of sign your name to a letter to the head of BA recruitment to tell them what you think (or perhaps just stick to anonymous whinging on a forum whle waiting to fire your own CV in as soon as general recruitment reopens).
If only those lovely no-win-no-fee parasite lawyers would take up your worthy discrimination case....
So BA are offering selection to a handful of military pilots. So what?
Throwing the discrimination word around is pretty pathetic and no doubt why we recently had some faceless bureaucrats decide that insurance companies can no longer offer cheaper premiums to female drivers based on the statistical fact that their total claim value is less than mens.
I don't see how anyone can, in any way, begrudge someone who has given up a significant portion of their life (is it 20 years?) to drag their family around the world to do a hugely demanding job for a relatively insulting wage from getting the chance to transfer those skills to a civilian environment.
Are BA saying they will never take non-service again? No. Will any of sign your name to a letter to the head of BA recruitment to tell them what you think (or perhaps just stick to anonymous whinging on a forum whle waiting to fire your own CV in as soon as general recruitment reopens).
If only those lovely no-win-no-fee parasite lawyers would take up your worthy discrimination case....
I really don't see what the problem is here. Ever since the closure of Hamble BA has taken recruits from a variety of sources mostly successfully but with a few hiccups.
At one time after a series of recruits needing extra training recruitment had to be very wary of applicants from some operators and that did include some RAF applicants with 2 tours in the RHS.
At one time after a series of recruits needing extra training recruitment had to be very wary of applicants from some operators and that did include some RAF applicants with 2 tours in the RHS.
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Discrimination? - Utter rubbish. Many LoCos will only recruit FOs with minimal experience so they can exploit them cheaply-is that discrimination as well? Also BA are actively recruiting 320 TRs. Dry your eyes!
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Lets put this one to bed shall we.
The RAFCARS scheme (as was) only enabled military pilots to apply for BA within their last 2 years of service whilst they were gaining their civilian qualifications.
The reason the scheme and subsequent schemes are in place is that in order to access the standard BA recruiting site or, in the past, to get past the 'not qualified' filter, all applicants were required to submit their licence number to proceed.
The military applicants are afforded no further advantage than that. The requirements for the interview, numpty testing and the simulator are exactly the same.
Those throwing 'discrimination' around are scraping the proverbial barrel bottem as it is impossible to claim such when a company is only hunting down the most suitable. If such PC rubbish got that far then the banks and the head hunting companies would be worried.
If you're not yet qualified then apply when you are.
The RAFCARS scheme (as was) only enabled military pilots to apply for BA within their last 2 years of service whilst they were gaining their civilian qualifications.
The reason the scheme and subsequent schemes are in place is that in order to access the standard BA recruiting site or, in the past, to get past the 'not qualified' filter, all applicants were required to submit their licence number to proceed.
The military applicants are afforded no further advantage than that. The requirements for the interview, numpty testing and the simulator are exactly the same.
Those throwing 'discrimination' around are scraping the proverbial barrel bottem as it is impossible to claim such when a company is only hunting down the most suitable. If such PC rubbish got that far then the banks and the head hunting companies would be worried.
If you're not yet qualified then apply when you are.
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Discrimination
The UK MOD has Nationality requirements which restrict non Brits from joining the armed forces. They are able to do this under the cloak of crown immunity.
The UK MOD until recently restricted the employment of homosexual people and also until recently the employment of women in many job categories.
Under the cover of Crown Imunity the MOD was able to drive a bus through UK anti discrimination legislation.
Now airlines do not enjoy Crown Immunity. By biasing recruitment policies towards service applicants the airlines may inadevertantly be indirectly discriminating against non British people with the right to live and work in the UK, discriminating against homosexual people and also discriminating against women.
Now im not playing any cards here just pointing out what may be an interpretation of employment law and it is surely the right to live in a free and fair society regulated by democratic law that the military should be serving to protect.
The notion that by positively seeking applicants from the armed forces airlines are seeking highly motivated, disciplined and capable candidates overlooks the fact that all the above qualities are required by any commercial pilot be they a flying instructor, air taxi pilot, turbo prop pilot or jet pilot. Those qualities of motivation , discipline and capability are required by all aviators and are not something that the MOD has a monoploy over.
While service pilots have had a standard of training second to none on leaving the services many are inexperianced, low houred and underqualified compared to pilots currently on the market.
The UK MOD until recently restricted the employment of homosexual people and also until recently the employment of women in many job categories.
Under the cover of Crown Imunity the MOD was able to drive a bus through UK anti discrimination legislation.
Now airlines do not enjoy Crown Immunity. By biasing recruitment policies towards service applicants the airlines may inadevertantly be indirectly discriminating against non British people with the right to live and work in the UK, discriminating against homosexual people and also discriminating against women.
Now im not playing any cards here just pointing out what may be an interpretation of employment law and it is surely the right to live in a free and fair society regulated by democratic law that the military should be serving to protect.
The notion that by positively seeking applicants from the armed forces airlines are seeking highly motivated, disciplined and capable candidates overlooks the fact that all the above qualities are required by any commercial pilot be they a flying instructor, air taxi pilot, turbo prop pilot or jet pilot. Those qualities of motivation , discipline and capability are required by all aviators and are not something that the MOD has a monoploy over.
While service pilots have had a standard of training second to none on leaving the services many are inexperianced, low houred and underqualified compared to pilots currently on the market.
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Its interesting how the FR brigade are throwing around the discrimination card. They seem to think it is some sort of right of passage to pay their way into a job and then when they realise that the prospects aren't so bright afterall jump ship to a proper airline with career progression and union recognition.
I wonder if the perfectly able guys and gals out of flying school who couldn't muster 30k for a type rating feel discriminated against?
I wonder if the perfectly able guys and gals out of flying school who couldn't muster 30k for a type rating feel discriminated against?
Calm down guys. I was merely asking a perfectly reasonable question, which was first posed by another poster and subsequently discussed by others. Re-read my post and you will see that I'm a fan of the Armed Forces, especially their pilots, some of whom are friends of mine. As I said, they deserve all the luck they can get.
I take the point about discrimination of this sort being lawful. I think that is correct. I was referring to fairness in a general sense. You see, as a big fan of the doctrine of meritocracy (rather than politically correct quota systems), I just want everyone to have the same opportunities.
Good luck to all the applicants.
PS:
@MCDU2: Has it ever occurred to you that most people who pay for their Type Ratings do so from funds they've earned and saved or have to take out loans which they pay from their income. The notion that they're all undeserving rich kids is a myth.
I take the point about discrimination of this sort being lawful. I think that is correct. I was referring to fairness in a general sense. You see, as a big fan of the doctrine of meritocracy (rather than politically correct quota systems), I just want everyone to have the same opportunities.
Good luck to all the applicants.
PS:
@MCDU2: Has it ever occurred to you that most people who pay for their Type Ratings do so from funds they've earned and saved or have to take out loans which they pay from their income. The notion that they're all undeserving rich kids is a myth.
Sorry I think your arguments are weak:
Not quite. Also Commonwealth citizens and Irish Republic nationals are permitted to join.
How do you define recently? It was 2000 which is 11 years ago.
Again, how do you define recently? There were female pilots training in 1990, which is 21 years ago. After opening the aircrew trades (women were employed as AQM/ALM for many years prior to 1990), Firefighter and Aerial Erector, only RAF Regiment remains a closed restricted 'job category'.
The UK MOD has Nationality requirements which restrict non Brits from joining the armed forces
The UK MOD until recently restricted the employment of homosexual people
The UK MOD until recently restricted the ... employment of women in many job categories.
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Oh dear.
Paul,
You may be
but your interpretation is absolute hoop. I refer you again to the fact that in the last few months BA has been advertising for civvy pilots for 737 LGW, A320 LGW, A320 LHR and 747 against one ad for this specific military scheme. Why are you not concerned about the military guys who are 'discriminated against' because they are ineligable for at least four of the five schemes listed? (The answer, of course, is because there is no employment law discrimination going on here at all).
MCDU2,
I suppose you could call me one of the FR brigade. Read my posts again. Your assertion is the absolute opposite of my opinion and that of the majority of FR guys, many of whom have done very well out of BA's recent recruitment. I fully support the diversity of BA's recent recruitment drives including the RAF managed path even though I was unable to take advantage of it. It is only a small proportion of military pilots that will be able to benefit from this scheme.
Luchboxlegend,
I am well aware of the value of the benefits that go with an RAF career, but was simply trying to provide some perspective to the 'RAF are well paid' assertion. The two specific examples I compared were not random choices, if you catch my drift.
Paul,
You may be
just pointing out what may be an interpretation of employment law
MCDU2,
I suppose you could call me one of the FR brigade. Read my posts again. Your assertion is the absolute opposite of my opinion and that of the majority of FR guys, many of whom have done very well out of BA's recent recruitment. I fully support the diversity of BA's recent recruitment drives including the RAF managed path even though I was unable to take advantage of it. It is only a small proportion of military pilots that will be able to benefit from this scheme.
Luchboxlegend,
I am well aware of the value of the benefits that go with an RAF career, but was simply trying to provide some perspective to the 'RAF are well paid' assertion. The two specific examples I compared were not random choices, if you catch my drift.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 4th Apr 2011 at 12:17.
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Discrimination
Im grateful for Mr Ripley's confirmation that the MOD has been discriminating. He confirms that if you are not from Britain, the Commonwealth or the Irish Republic that the UK MOD will racially discrimante against you even to this to day. Notwithstanding that memebers of the EEC have automatic right to live and work in the UK.
He also confirms that until 11 years ago that the MOD discriminated against homosexual people. This means that with a cut off age of 24 years for pilot training any homosexual currently aged over 35 years will have been discriminated against by the MOD and with women being barred from employment as pilots by the MOD until 20 years ago any women currently aged over 44 years will have also suffered discrimination.
So under the umbrella of Crown Immunity the MOD has been able to get away with discriminatory practices which in civil society have been legislated against. Even the MOD cut off age of 24 years for pilot training falls short of existing standards required under Age Discrimination Legislation.
Torque Today makes the point that BA have run a variety of entry schemes for qualified and type rated pilots which have been open to all whatever their background including service personnel if qualified. He finds it unfair that civil pilots have gained operating experiance on civil types and are therfore qualified for these reruitment schemes. The point is that entry to civil aviation is not restricted by racial orgin, nationality, gender, sexual orientation and age in the way that entry to the MOD is and has been.
The concern is that here we have an entry scheme aimed at unqualified, non type rated pilots. It precludes those from certain racial origins including those with the right to live and work in the Uk. It precludes homosexual people currently aged over 35 years and it also precludes women currently aged over 44 years.
It is therfore by being restrictive to service personnel only potentially indirectly discriminatory.
He also confirms that until 11 years ago that the MOD discriminated against homosexual people. This means that with a cut off age of 24 years for pilot training any homosexual currently aged over 35 years will have been discriminated against by the MOD and with women being barred from employment as pilots by the MOD until 20 years ago any women currently aged over 44 years will have also suffered discrimination.
So under the umbrella of Crown Immunity the MOD has been able to get away with discriminatory practices which in civil society have been legislated against. Even the MOD cut off age of 24 years for pilot training falls short of existing standards required under Age Discrimination Legislation.
Torque Today makes the point that BA have run a variety of entry schemes for qualified and type rated pilots which have been open to all whatever their background including service personnel if qualified. He finds it unfair that civil pilots have gained operating experiance on civil types and are therfore qualified for these reruitment schemes. The point is that entry to civil aviation is not restricted by racial orgin, nationality, gender, sexual orientation and age in the way that entry to the MOD is and has been.
The concern is that here we have an entry scheme aimed at unqualified, non type rated pilots. It precludes those from certain racial origins including those with the right to live and work in the Uk. It precludes homosexual people currently aged over 35 years and it also precludes women currently aged over 44 years.
It is therfore by being restrictive to service personnel only potentially indirectly discriminatory.
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He finds it unfair that civil pilots ...
You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder and seem to be looking for discrimination where none exists. Regardless of your gender, sexuality, nationality or race, you can apply to BA if you have the required professional pre-requisites for one of its job ads. Describing military pilots as unqualified is disingenuous - differently qualified would be more honest.
There are females pilots, gay pilots, ethnic minority pilots and non-British pilots in the RAF who may qualify for this scheme. Nationality is resticted when it comes to the armed forces, but such restriction is permitted in law and is entirely appropriate to national defence. Give it a rest fella, or find a parasitic PC no-win-no-fee lawyer to put your theory to the test.
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Perhaps BA should rewrite there add to state that they require applicants with one of the following TRs: Typhoon, Tornado, Sentry, Nimrod, C-130 etc
I'm sure BA would interview a German Tornado pilot or Italian Typhoon jocky.
Would this satisfy you Paul.
Regards
I'm sure BA would interview a German Tornado pilot or Italian Typhoon jocky.
Would this satisfy you Paul.
Regards
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Discrimination
Restricting entry to the following types Typhoon, Tornado, Sentry, Nimrod, C-130 does not solve the discrimination issue.
How does such a restriction begin to deal with the clear discrimination built into the service pilot only scheme ? How does it deal with the discrimination againsta homosexual pilot aged over 35 years ? or a woman aged over 44 years ? or a pilot from a non British or non Commenwealth non Irish Republic origin ?
The answer is it of course it does not deal with this discrimination.
What would be okay is to have a recruitment scheme open to all pilots with say 1500 hours total time on turbo prop or jet aircraft of any type with the right to live and work in the UK.
Then high quality service personnel could be judged and assesed side by side high quality civilian pilots competing openly for the available jobs based on experiance, capability personality fit and all the other legal factors.
How does such a restriction begin to deal with the clear discrimination built into the service pilot only scheme ? How does it deal with the discrimination againsta homosexual pilot aged over 35 years ? or a woman aged over 44 years ? or a pilot from a non British or non Commenwealth non Irish Republic origin ?
The answer is it of course it does not deal with this discrimination.
What would be okay is to have a recruitment scheme open to all pilots with say 1500 hours total time on turbo prop or jet aircraft of any type with the right to live and work in the UK.
Then high quality service personnel could be judged and assesed side by side high quality civilian pilots competing openly for the available jobs based on experiance, capability personality fit and all the other legal factors.
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Paul,
If you have a close read of the BA advertisement you will notice that applications are invited for "Managed Path", not for direct entry. Are you aware of the difference?
If you have a close read of the BA advertisement you will notice that applications are invited for "Managed Path", not for direct entry. Are you aware of the difference?
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Andy, they were advertising for DE with Airbus or Boeing type ratings, it was there 24 hours ago.
On that point I have neither of those ratings I am, therefore, being discriminated against.
Edit to add it's still there!
On that point I have neither of those ratings I am, therefore, being discriminated against.
Edit to add it's still there!
Paul
Dont forget the way these companies discriminate against blind and deaf applicants purely based on the discredited and non pc thinking that they may not be capable of doing the job without crashing.
Dont get my blood boiling on how they also require you to pass the odd exam and interview here and there.Clearly keeping out thick applicants is soooo discriminatory against stupidity.
Where will it all end?
I wanted to be a brain surgeon but wasn't allowed to be because I was rubbish with my bed side manner.
Who can I sue? Its soooo unfair.
Dont forget the way these companies discriminate against blind and deaf applicants purely based on the discredited and non pc thinking that they may not be capable of doing the job without crashing.
Dont get my blood boiling on how they also require you to pass the odd exam and interview here and there.Clearly keeping out thick applicants is soooo discriminatory against stupidity.
Where will it all end?
I wanted to be a brain surgeon but wasn't allowed to be because I was rubbish with my bed side manner.
Who can I sue? Its soooo unfair.
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Discrimination
The*Managed Path Direct Entry Pilot Scheme*is for experienced, high calibre qualified service pilots of the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Army Air Corps who want to develop their careers with one of the most progressive international airlines in the business.
*
Please note that this is a dedicated recruitment path for service pilots only. Please do not apply if you are not a UK service pilot.
Thus :
You will not be able to apply if you are not from Britain, the Commonwealth or Irish Republic. You will not be able to apply if you are homosexual and currently aged 35 or more and you wont be able to apply if you are a woman and aged 44 years or more.
Irrespective of your experiance or calibre.
*
Please note that this is a dedicated recruitment path for service pilots only. Please do not apply if you are not a UK service pilot.
Thus :
You will not be able to apply if you are not from Britain, the Commonwealth or Irish Republic. You will not be able to apply if you are homosexual and currently aged 35 or more and you wont be able to apply if you are a woman and aged 44 years or more.
Irrespective of your experiance or calibre.