FO Caught in the middle - too experienced and too expensive

[aces low]

I've never found it easy to find a job in UK aviation, but with the introduction of 'cadet-biased' recruitment policies (and web systems that only allow you to apply when there are definite recruitment plans) it is getting more difficult. As a relatively experienced FO with over 3300 TT including B737, C560XLS (Netjets) and Jetstream 41 on the licence (but none current at the moment) I am finding that not only can I not find UK jobs that I can apply for but that that I am not even getting close when I do find a job that I am qualified for
.

I am not here to bleat about the iniquities of the the system and the general erosion of Terms and Conditions, but I am genuinely stuck as to what I should be doing to get a job. A decade ago I would have sent cvs speculatively and badgered companies: But now the limited HR based systems of recruitment means that I will often just get an email saying 'Wait until the recruitment website opens...if ever' only to find that posts have been filled by a quick trip to CTC or that over 1000 rated, current pilots have applied for the same job. I am not in a position to pay for a rating but am willing to take a reduced contract, if I could get close to getting a job.

So now I find myself not sure as to what I should be doing. There is a saying that the definition of insanity is 'to keeping doing the same thing yet expecting a different result'.

Well I need to be doing something different and more effective and I would welcome any advice or insights from the wider PPRUNE community. Genuinely stuck!

[Piltdown Man]

Have you tried agency work? It pays reasonably well but doesn't have much in the way of security, but it does get your bum in the air. It also means you are not beholden to anyone but yourself and when you find something better, you are able to jump ship with minimal notice. However, the normal moral rules still apply: If you are open and honest with the agency, they'll put you up for work because they know they can rely on you.

[Cloud Chaser]

Unfortunately, the same problem exists in agency work, one could argue it is even worse, I found that out first hand.
Agency positions tend to be geared towards those not only with a current/valid rating, but those who are in current flying practice, average within 90 days, but I have seen ads asking for as recent as 28 days!
I looked for agency work on a type I had over 2K hours on, but because my LPC had lapsed, it was a waste of time.
Aces Low, I feel your pain, in the same boat myself (but different types). Out of curiosity, have you tried:
737, Jet2 and bmibaby, both have recently recruited although I think both finished.
J41, Eastern?, presume that's where you got the rating, would you consider going back.
XLS, no help here. Were you a victim of NetJets cost cutting? If so I would have thought you would be first back when the market picks up.
Good Luck!

[aces low]

Mistakes...I've made a few

Thanks for the comments and advice. I have tried all the operators mentioned, and have had interviews and some 'positive' responses but as we all know that a maybe/promise made in aviation is worth nothing, so I am still looking. The point about the LPC is very valid....almost all the contract/agencies have wanted a valid LPC AND also time in the aircraft within the last 6 months, so simply paying to revalidate would still not be productive.

There are several issues that I need to resolve

• 1. Hearing about the jobs that are out there or up coming
• 2. Being considered as a relevant candidate
• 3. Being high enough up the list to warrant being interviewed
• 4. Passing selection procedure

Of these, Stages 2 and 3 are dependent upon the current state of pilot supply/demand i.e. if SkyEurope, Excel et al dump a load of experienced B737 pilots on the market then I will always be down the experience list. Stage 4 is in my hands and I can prepare for this.

So the issue is getting an inside track on all the jobs where I might be considered a reasonably experienced candidate (even if not rated on type) and short of PPJN I am struggling to find a vacancy intelligence system to be 'in it'.

Thanks again

[Damianik]

Same here mate,
3800TT, 737 current, H800 current (NJE) and i managed to get Turkish Airlines just cause a friend of a friend gave me a 2 months contract last summer on a charter airline in Italy to get back to "recency" . The recency of 90 days is a pain in a flexible economy like this. The rules need changing or protection put in place, a free market like this doesnt apply to aviation!

H800 is a useless type to have, so i am going to work in Turkey just to make myself current and flying the 737 just in case something closer to EU comes up.

I cannot relay on Buffet.

[deltahotel]

DHLAir Uk? Plenty of management issues to deal with, but openings for experienced non-type rated FOs. Be prepared to deal with working from germany. PM me if you wish.

[chimichanga]

I feel your pain my friend! Seriously. I am/was in the same boat for the last several years. Held numerous Type Ratings and about 4000 hours, but not current on any of my types. With one company, they wanted recency within 90 days and I was 94 days out, so that was a no-go.

I beat my head against a wall for a couple years trying to find a job. No luck. Experience is good if you are current. Remember you are only as good as your last LPC and that needs to be less than 3 months old for many operators.

I finally got out of the pilot seat because I could see where this train wreck of pilot supply and demand was headin'.

If you are interested to fly for an airline in Europe then you need to be a Direct Entry current Captain with 500 PIC in Type or a cadet. Unfortunately, the term "Experienced First Officer" is the green light for HR to trash your application.

You could apply as a cadet and simply say you have only 300 hours or so, but are eager to do whatever it takes to make the company profitable. Hide your experience because it counts against you these days. Remember, the decision makes see it as a simple equation: Experienced = Expensive. Obviously, that is ridiculous to you and I, but there is an element of truth to this statement.

Remember, there are many things that one can do besides fly an airplane. Pretty soon you will have to put food on the table. Only you can decide when you reach that point.

Best of luck!

[Pelikanpete]

The grass always appears greener on the other side but the reality is that although it may appear as though low hour cadets are being picked up by airlines it is in actual fact just a tiny proportion of the thousands looking for work. 99% of wannabes would happily trade logbooks with you.

There are hardly any jobs out there for crew at any level. Experienced Captains willing to accept a poor contract are about the only ones in demand.

[no sponsor]

The past few years in the UK, virtually all F/O recruitment has been cadets. Hundreds of cadets have gone into Ryanair and Easy Jet. Have a look at job stats from Oxford and CTC - there's been a boom in hiring inexperienced people willing to pay inflated prices. Oxford charge £36K for their grads to go into Eazy Jet for a 6 month contract.

F/Os made redundant from XL and Globespan, and a few others, have found it very difficult to find work. In the UK it was virtually impossible for experienced F/Os. An F/O stuck in a TP operator has had the career progression taken away. 5 years ago much of Easy Jets and RYR recruitment was from regional operators. I sadly know a few guys with 2000+ hrs of 737NG time who gave the career up after looking for 1-2 years with no sniff of a job here in the UK.

Times are changing. Today's Flight was full of jobs. Even Cathay are giving recognition again to those with some experience - I've not seen that for a few years!

Heard the same stories at Jet2, with some resigning in their first weeks in the company.

[jamestkirk]

I met a very experienced american pilot last week.

he said that the industry is changing in the states and that a minimum hours requirement may come into force for fo's.

no information other than that.

[CAP509castaway]

Aces,
Have you tried the sand pit steady recruitment ongoing for FlyDubai and other middle east airlines.Good Luck!

[Balthazar B]

Go back to the old tried and true method

I was jobless for a couple of years 2008-2010. I sent electronic CVs to every company I could think of, with very few replies, and none positive.
I decided to turn up in person and knock on doors. The second one I tried said yes.
I'm not saying it will definitely work for you, but heck, it can't hurt.
Good Luck.....

[zondaracer]

Jamestkirk, what you heard is correct. In the USA, the flying schools don´t have the same preference system to the airlines. the airlines typically don´t hire anybody with a wet Commercial license (the recent exception being a couple regionals in the 2007-2008 hiring spree). As far as the minimum hours, congress passed a law requiring an ATP, meaning minimum 1500hrs plus all requirements, just to work at a 121 carrier (any scheduled operator). Some of the airlines right now are starting to hire experienced pilots in anticipation to the ATP requirement which goes into effect in 2013.

[nike]

no sponsor - not sure about your CX comment.

They are only looking for Cadets - a poorly thought out plan to reduce wage costs (read no housing allowance in one of the most expensive cities in the world).

In fact they are happy quite with experienced pilots, just want to call them Cadets, hence their 3 tiered labeling....
Cathay Pacific - Careers : Careers Home

It does appear that they haven't reached their targets of more experienced pilots, which would allow for less training costs and shorter time to being on the line as rumour has it planned upgrades this year are already being revised downwards.

That said, hopefully sanity will return, or at least the market will force a rethink of the downward trend in packages and experienced pilots will once again be seen as valued employees.

[INNflight]

I 2nd that - have you considered FlyDubai?

Also, if you don't mind trying (the language problem is there I guess), Norwegian was looking for 737 jockeys a while back.

[aces low]

Thanks to everybody for their comments and support...it has given me food for thought. The Desert is not an option as I am separated and would need to be nearer the UK to see my children but a good commuting contract could sort that out!

Thanks

[STATLER]

Once upon a time a wannabe flyer went to his local flying club and started lessons and eventually gained a PPL, he then built hours and gained a professional license (before this, for those older than I, they instructed on their PPL until gaining sufficient hours to upgrade to CPL) They then instructed on poor pay and yearned for a turboprop job, passengers by day maybe freight by night but they flew with experienced seasoned veterans who continued to give guidance, NBD’s at night plenty of hand flying non precision approaches into regional airports.
Several years later they may of got a command on the TP or moved on to the right seat of a jet maybe the same company maybe pastures new. Again they had to build experience and we’re probably seat locked for years. A few years later they may get a command upgrade or move right seat onto the long haul fleet.
The ultimate goal for many being left seat long haul, but to get there the journey was long but airlines were smaller as were their fleet sizes, it was bound to take time to get to the top.

The above is now a fable cast to the past, Integrated, pay to fly, Oxford, CTC, and the riches brought by cheap loans, credit cards, rich mummy’s and daddies and the have it now culture and not forgetting the hunger of the ever expanding airline industry and their share holders, the sandpit Asia etc. etc. has brought about the current state in the market.

Instructing? Well that’s done if your really desperate and need to stay current.
Turboprops? Are there no jet jobs? Ok that’ll do but only until that jet job arrives and I’ll be off like a shot.

So that brings us to the UK jet job market! There aren’t many new starter full time positions anymore, cadets on part time, flexi crew, 70% contracts, and 100hrs experience for 20K. Low pay low and every lowering T&C’s. That is what we have become, the cheapest person for the job. Why pay more there’ll be off soon and there’s plenty more to replace those leaving and there willing to work for even less!

The UK jet market has replaced the turboprop job in the old fable above, you gain a few years experience maybe a short command before moving on to the sandpit, china, India, where the T&C’s and packages are still respectable as they need the experience you have already gained. Imagine being in your twenties castigated to 30 years plus as an expat?

Unfortunately that is what our industry has become! Its no individual’s fault it’s the industries fault including ourselves!

[Damianik]

Norwegian advertises for 737 pilots but dont take any 737 pilot that are not : known by somebody in the company/ Swedish/danish/norwegian.
I applied 5 times, i have 2500 on type and 3800 total, no joy and i was told exactly that.

[waveydavey]

So why are the Jet2 new recruits leaving so quickly?