You're own enemy - idiots!
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You're own enemy - idiots!
As an experienced F/O with a nice salary/contract it is easy to get complacent and sit back and take the money.
It has however, over the last few years, been evident that the 'bottom' of the market is effecting the 'top'.
Pay and Terms are being squeezed from the bottom up.
All this extends (IMO) to the CTC type contracts that started in around 1998. Indeed this was just when I started looking for my first job.
Being a man of principle I rejected the 'pay for rating' and 'work for peanuts' way of doing things.
Eventually a nice airline with similar principles took pity on me and offered me a job on a 757 with nothing up front and a £15K bond over 3 years.
My brother however is not so lucky. He has been asked to pay £18k up front despite his 2000 hours experience and only get a temporary contract. He has had to borrow my (retired) mums life savings to do.
I have questioned his reason to do this and its the same as it was 10 years ago... EVERYONE ELSE DOES SO I HAVE TO AS WELL!
WELL SHAME ON YOU ALL!
I LAUGH IN YOUR FACE AT THE SITUATION YOU HAVE CREATED FOR YOURESELVES WITH YOUR SELFISH ATTITUDES!
and now the whole industy suffers. Look in the mirror and smile at your £100 per hour contract with no job sercurity and wonder why?????????!!!!
It has however, over the last few years, been evident that the 'bottom' of the market is effecting the 'top'.
Pay and Terms are being squeezed from the bottom up.
All this extends (IMO) to the CTC type contracts that started in around 1998. Indeed this was just when I started looking for my first job.
Being a man of principle I rejected the 'pay for rating' and 'work for peanuts' way of doing things.
Eventually a nice airline with similar principles took pity on me and offered me a job on a 757 with nothing up front and a £15K bond over 3 years.
My brother however is not so lucky. He has been asked to pay £18k up front despite his 2000 hours experience and only get a temporary contract. He has had to borrow my (retired) mums life savings to do.
I have questioned his reason to do this and its the same as it was 10 years ago... EVERYONE ELSE DOES SO I HAVE TO AS WELL!
WELL SHAME ON YOU ALL!
I LAUGH IN YOUR FACE AT THE SITUATION YOU HAVE CREATED FOR YOURESELVES WITH YOUR SELFISH ATTITUDES!
and now the whole industy suffers. Look in the mirror and smile at your £100 per hour contract with no job sercurity and wonder why?????????!!!!
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My brother however is not so lucky. He has been asked to pay £18k up front despite his 2000 hours experience and only get a temporary contract. He has had to borrow my (retired) mums life savings to do.
You're absolute right, those who get greedy muddy the waters for everyone. No surprise there; it's been going on for decades.
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Sorry, what's the point of this thread? Are you adding anything to the debate?
I think it's a bit rich, by the way, to be calling other people idiots, when you don't know the difference between affect and effect.
I think it's a bit rich, by the way, to be calling other people idiots, when you don't know the difference between affect and effect.
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I love threads like these, in all honesty where do you think this will lead?
I agree that P2F has started the ball rolling in the deterioration of the T&C but that is not the only factor and to pretend it is the sole cause is somewhat short sighted! (I am not saying that is what you have said....) This industry has changed for many reasons but IMO until there is a desperate need for pilots again and until we ALL stand up as one and say NO then our conditions will never improve.
As has been posted the reality is there is and now probably always will be a supply of those willing to P2F and this is the problem. Going around in circles reminiscing of the good old days does you no good. Certainly only makes me cross!
Bluebaron, you may look on as an experienced hand with a good job but just remember even that isn't safe in todays market! Lots of companies are trying to squeeze their highest earning employees and as alluded to earlier we will all need to stand as one to stop this. Something I am sure you will agree, will never happen! Sadly the time has come to accept a change has happened and to move with it!
My moto: Take the best you can out of this industry and find the right company for you, then enjoy it and let the rest wash over!
To steal a line Happy Flighting!!
I agree that P2F has started the ball rolling in the deterioration of the T&C but that is not the only factor and to pretend it is the sole cause is somewhat short sighted! (I am not saying that is what you have said....) This industry has changed for many reasons but IMO until there is a desperate need for pilots again and until we ALL stand up as one and say NO then our conditions will never improve.
As has been posted the reality is there is and now probably always will be a supply of those willing to P2F and this is the problem. Going around in circles reminiscing of the good old days does you no good. Certainly only makes me cross!
Bluebaron, you may look on as an experienced hand with a good job but just remember even that isn't safe in todays market! Lots of companies are trying to squeeze their highest earning employees and as alluded to earlier we will all need to stand as one to stop this. Something I am sure you will agree, will never happen! Sadly the time has come to accept a change has happened and to move with it!
My moto: Take the best you can out of this industry and find the right company for you, then enjoy it and let the rest wash over!
To steal a line Happy Flighting!!
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You're a luzy son if you allow your brother to take your mums lifesaving to do a rating, - none of you 2 deserve anything in life with that kind of attitudes to those you should really look after and care about!!!
I hope you are not up for cmd soon, as i would hate to see you show your "responsibility" towards crew and costumers
I hope you are not up for cmd soon, as i would hate to see you show your "responsibility" towards crew and costumers
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Avenger, the point of this thread is that Bluebaron has an uncontrollable desire to demonstrate what an arrogant, hugely naive, stuck up 'idiot' he is. Simple as that.
A man with 'principles' that he contradicts, and a man who believes that there are airlines out there who put their principles above their costs.
Dream on.
A man with 'principles' that he contradicts, and a man who believes that there are airlines out there who put their principles above their costs.
Dream on.
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Am I missing the point? Surely this is a 'Result' all round.
Your Bro isn't in this 'hobby' for the money is he? (After all flying remuneration continues to decline well below those offered in the established trades such as plumber etc...)
Your Bro wants to indulge his desire to fly...... tick
Your Bro wants some gold bars to 'strut' round the airport..... tick
Your dear old mum wants to support her son..... tick
Wayne and Tracey want to enjoy greatly subsidized junkets to the Costa's.... tick
What's the problem? I love the fact that I can get to the med for little more than the bus fare to town. I therefore offer my personal thanks to one and all concerned.
Your Bro isn't in this 'hobby' for the money is he? (After all flying remuneration continues to decline well below those offered in the established trades such as plumber etc...)
Your Bro wants to indulge his desire to fly...... tick
Your Bro wants some gold bars to 'strut' round the airport..... tick
Your dear old mum wants to support her son..... tick
Wayne and Tracey want to enjoy greatly subsidized junkets to the Costa's.... tick
What's the problem? I love the fact that I can get to the med for little more than the bus fare to town. I therefore offer my personal thanks to one and all concerned.
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First of all congratulations compadre Bluebaron, I wish there would be more like you. The extend to which pilots will sell their souls never seizes to amaze me but there are a few of us that not only think like you but that have indeed lived by that creed, that has caused me some opportunities and quite frankly gave me wide body command a decade later than I should have gotten it but I have no regrets and would not change any of the times that I told some suit to "shove it" just to watch the next guy take the job for less money that was offered to me, at the beginning of my career I flew corporate and that was a regular occurrence, and at the airlines? well, we all know that the airlines are full of the loud mouths that raise hell in the company forum just to go behind everybody's back and "brown nose" for an RTC position, you know the type that should have stickers on their bags that read "my ass speaks for me" But I have been blessed with a wife that is ready at a moments notice to go to war (sort of speak) and like she said recently, "jobs are a dime a dozen but the image on the mirror is only one"
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Bluebaron
If you're looking for people to blame then look a bit closer to home. Wasn't it a couple of Captain's from your airline that set up CTC. Not only that, when did your airline last take non type rated pilots on bonded full time contracts? The next round of recruitment will surely see summer only contracts for cadets. It's an industry wide problem, from top to bottom, and not just the 'bottom' of the profession you appear to look down on. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating the sorry mess our profession is in, and what has caused it, but sitting high and mighty saying "I didn't do it x years ago and I got a nice 757 job with lots of bonuses" has no relevance to getting into the industry now. It has changed and it's not about to get any better any time soon. As for my views on P2F ... and I think the airline managements are laughing all the way to the bank. Only the CAA or BALPA can stop it but they won't/can't/don't want to.
If you're looking for people to blame then look a bit closer to home. Wasn't it a couple of Captain's from your airline that set up CTC. Not only that, when did your airline last take non type rated pilots on bonded full time contracts? The next round of recruitment will surely see summer only contracts for cadets. It's an industry wide problem, from top to bottom, and not just the 'bottom' of the profession you appear to look down on. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating the sorry mess our profession is in, and what has caused it, but sitting high and mighty saying "I didn't do it x years ago and I got a nice 757 job with lots of bonuses" has no relevance to getting into the industry now. It has changed and it's not about to get any better any time soon. As for my views on P2F ...
and I think the airline managements are laughing all the way to the bank. Only the CAA or BALPA can stop it but they won't/can't/don't want to.
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Why do you mostly keep making reference to a problem? I just can't see it.
Flying is a blue collar function that many (me included) enjoy doing. It will prove very hard to make a plausable living performing a blue collar function that others would love to do for free (or even pay to do).
Why is this a surprise?
I think it's fabulous that our 'subject' is going to get his chance to enjoy himself. More, given that many others are going to get some benefit from his self indulgence. Air Fares are approx 10 years 'en retard' with actual RPI and thats before we take due note of the oil prices!!
Truth is, in the absence of these giving individuals such as your brother, many would not be able to enjoy a summer break in the med. We should all be thanking him.
Flying is a blue collar function that many (me included) enjoy doing. It will prove very hard to make a plausable living performing a blue collar function that others would love to do for free (or even pay to do).
Why is this a surprise?
I think it's fabulous that our 'subject' is going to get his chance to enjoy himself. More, given that many others are going to get some benefit from his self indulgence. Air Fares are approx 10 years 'en retard' with actual RPI and thats before we take due note of the oil prices!!
Truth is, in the absence of these giving individuals such as your brother, many would not be able to enjoy a summer break in the med. We should all be thanking him.
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What a difference a decade makes!
Well Mr "man of principles", let me transport you back 10 years.
On the 13th July 2001, somebody called CXwannabe wrote on these very forums:
You replied, and I think it was your first post on PPRuNe:
A lot must have happened in the intervening decade, such that today you are able to tell everyone else that you:
I look forward to your (you're) next lecture on "principles." 
On the 13th July 2001, somebody called CXwannabe wrote on these very forums:
TO ALL WANNABE'S:
Monday July 9th was a dark day for all employee's of Cathay Pacific Airways when 49 long serving pilots were sacked in an effort to break thier union!
This action has necessitated a request to all IFALPA members to impose an IMMEDIATE hiring ban within Cathay Pacific until further notice.
Be forwarned! Until these officers are fully re-instated no new recruits within Cathay will be welcome!!
Joining CATHAY PACIFIC as of the 10th of July 2001 may very well establish yourself on a list that will follow you throughout your entire career. Think before you act.
DO NOT SCAB! 52 pilots need to get their jobs back before anyone should consider Cathay Pacific as a viable career option.
Monday July 9th was a dark day for all employee's of Cathay Pacific Airways when 49 long serving pilots were sacked in an effort to break thier union!
This action has necessitated a request to all IFALPA members to impose an IMMEDIATE hiring ban within Cathay Pacific until further notice.
Be forwarned! Until these officers are fully re-instated no new recruits within Cathay will be welcome!!
Joining CATHAY PACIFIC as of the 10th of July 2001 may very well establish yourself on a list that will follow you throughout your entire career. Think before you act.
DO NOT SCAB! 52 pilots need to get their jobs back before anyone should consider Cathay Pacific as a viable career option.
I difficult one that, i've been unemployed for three years. If Cathay offered me a job on a shiney 747-400 and a stack of cash then it would be a hard thing to turn down. Especialy as i'm not in the union. Different maybe if i was working and thinking of joining cathey from another airline?
sorry!
sorry!
LAUGH IN YOUR FACE AT THE SITUATION YOU HAVE CREATED FOR YOURESELVES WITH YOUR SELFISH ATTITUDES!