Ryanair Captains on £45,000 per year !!!
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45,000 UK pounds is a disgrace even with other allowances added.
Its not gonna get any better , but what are managment gonna do to stem a tide of 10 pilots per week leaving/handing in their notices!
If anything 5/3 is a strong rumour! ...the downward spiral continues!! 5/3 will kill off the pilot fraternity on a massive scale!
Its not gonna get any better , but what are managment gonna do to stem a tide of 10 pilots per week leaving/handing in their notices!
If anything 5/3 is a strong rumour! ...the downward spiral continues!! 5/3 will kill off the pilot fraternity on a massive scale!
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Try buying a house!
If you were earning £70k per year you can get a mortgage of around 3.5x that. So that is say £245,000 from the bank.
Living down south around herts and essex, plus your deposit, you are looking at a nice 2 bed, or ex-council 3 bed for around the £275K mark.
Now lets look at the reality. Banks will only take taxable basic salary. They will not take sector or flight pay EVEN if it is taxable, because it is a variable income that is not guaranteed.
£45K x 3.5 = £157,500 + Deposit = Nice new build 2 bed flat next to Chicago's. Doesn't quite seem the sort of place a Captain with a new family should be aspiring to live. But this is the reality.
I have friends in other airlines that earn more then that BASIC as a first officer. They may not get the massive sector pay, but they DO get DUTY pay of around £5ph for EVERY HOUR THEY ARE AT WORK. That means, if they are out of base, 24 hour pay. If they are in the SIM, they get paid.
Guys, I can only see this getting worse, and especially as the contract workers directive is coming into effect on 1st October 2011. I have no doubts in my mind that all the people on the (old) Brookfield contracts will be pushed off it and onto a FR contract with really bad terms soon. Also, don't forget that the majority of those guys will be Captains as the contract has been in place for some 4 years now.
This is the time if any to make it count. The BRK guys that will be move across need to reject the offer of bad terms and conditions. There are going to be around 300-400 of you, and I can tell you now that is a lot of flights that will not take off if you all stand together and take the stand.
The main problem you will face is the kind of chap I worked with the other day. "I will accept anything they offer me as I have pilot loans and a family to feed. I just need to keep my job what ever they pay"!!
Not turning this into another one of 'those' threads, but things will never change if the guys that are willing to make a stand for the better of everyone, are going to be undercut and stabbed in the back by guys like that.
Living down south around herts and essex, plus your deposit, you are looking at a nice 2 bed, or ex-council 3 bed for around the £275K mark.
Now lets look at the reality. Banks will only take taxable basic salary. They will not take sector or flight pay EVEN if it is taxable, because it is a variable income that is not guaranteed.
£45K x 3.5 = £157,500 + Deposit = Nice new build 2 bed flat next to Chicago's. Doesn't quite seem the sort of place a Captain with a new family should be aspiring to live. But this is the reality.
I have friends in other airlines that earn more then that BASIC as a first officer. They may not get the massive sector pay, but they DO get DUTY pay of around £5ph for EVERY HOUR THEY ARE AT WORK. That means, if they are out of base, 24 hour pay. If they are in the SIM, they get paid.
Guys, I can only see this getting worse, and especially as the contract workers directive is coming into effect on 1st October 2011. I have no doubts in my mind that all the people on the (old) Brookfield contracts will be pushed off it and onto a FR contract with really bad terms soon. Also, don't forget that the majority of those guys will be Captains as the contract has been in place for some 4 years now.
This is the time if any to make it count. The BRK guys that will be move across need to reject the offer of bad terms and conditions. There are going to be around 300-400 of you, and I can tell you now that is a lot of flights that will not take off if you all stand together and take the stand.
The main problem you will face is the kind of chap I worked with the other day. "I will accept anything they offer me as I have pilot loans and a family to feed. I just need to keep my job what ever they pay"!!
Not turning this into another one of 'those' threads, but things will never change if the guys that are willing to make a stand for the better of everyone, are going to be undercut and stabbed in the back by guys like that.
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The main problem you will face is the kind of chap I worked with the other day. "I will accept anything they offer me as I have pilot loans and a family to feed. I just need to keep my job what ever they pay"!!
Not turning this into another one of 'those' threads, but things will never change if the guys that are willing to make a stand for the better of everyone, are going to be undercut and stabbed in the back by guys like that.
Not turning this into another one of 'those' threads, but things will never change if the guys that are willing to make a stand for the better of everyone, are going to be undercut and stabbed in the back by guys like that.
you give an example of somone who, like many of us are constrained by the diminishing state of the industry while trying to put a roof over his family's head and put food on the table and you make the assertion that he is stabbing other pilots in the back ?
If he decides not to accept what he can get and walks are *you* going to feed and home his family out of your pocket?
What's the chances of him getting a better paid position in the UK ? if it was available he would have taken it, you can be sure.
The driving factor is elsewhere, check your PM.
Last edited by stuckgear; 22nd Feb 2011 at 10:30.
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ok, maybe my 'stabbing you in the back' comment was a little over the top, but my point is;
as hard as some people fight, and as much as they risk for the good of everyone as a collective, there will always be others that will move in and take the easy option, regardless of the outcome for everyone else.
If someone is happy to live outsides of their means should anything happen to them, then that is not my fault. Everyone is in the same boat. We all have bills and mortgages, just some of us aren't stupid enough to go and buy a nice new BMW M3 on HP after finishing line training and still owing £100K in loans, and then moan that your not earning enough money when your hours are down for the month.
Anyway, this is getting off the thread. The £45k salary is a disgrace, and I know personally, I would rather not be doing this job and seeing my family earning a little less doing something totally different, than sitting somewhere in europe coming "home every night" to a hotel room and not seeing my family on a fixed 5-3.
Maybe my priorities are wrong, but family and quality of life is more important to me then getting Cosmic Radiation 10 hours a day for £45,000!!
as hard as some people fight, and as much as they risk for the good of everyone as a collective, there will always be others that will move in and take the easy option, regardless of the outcome for everyone else.
If someone is happy to live outsides of their means should anything happen to them, then that is not my fault. Everyone is in the same boat. We all have bills and mortgages, just some of us aren't stupid enough to go and buy a nice new BMW M3 on HP after finishing line training and still owing £100K in loans, and then moan that your not earning enough money when your hours are down for the month.
Anyway, this is getting off the thread. The £45k salary is a disgrace, and I know personally, I would rather not be doing this job and seeing my family earning a little less doing something totally different, than sitting somewhere in europe coming "home every night" to a hotel room and not seeing my family on a fixed 5-3.
Maybe my priorities are wrong, but family and quality of life is more important to me then getting Cosmic Radiation 10 hours a day for £45,000!!
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Aiminghigh - Your sentiments are to be applauded but I'm afraid what you suggest is not possible, neither legally or practically. From what I understand, many RYR pilots are not actually employed by RYR at all. Many work via an agency or a local RYR subsidiary. Their contracts vary by country and location and whim and each "contract" has differing terms, conditions and associated national employment law. In most countries, to strike you have to be in a union and that is difficult if you are self-employed. Then you have other problems. The UK directly employed contract guys wouldn't be able to support any colleagues, even if they had union recognition as that is illegal. And so on.
It is important to remember that Mr O'Leary's pilots are as loyal to him as he is to them. Neither owe each other. So when he doesn't pay the going rate, they'll leave. Currently the filthy Pikey has the biggest stick but history has a way of swinging back and forth, so when he has to count on loyalty, goodwill and team spirit his business will be totally and absolutely stuffed.
The same for his passengers. As long as it's (considered to be) cheap, they'll fly. Costs are now so tightly controlled that he becomes vulnerable to fuel price moves. I'm sure dealing with EU consumer organisations will take up an ever increasing amount of management time. Think about how much positive PR and news reportage he gets? Positive events such as the excellent piece of flying following multiple birdstrikes tend to be over-looked. The media is very negative towards RYR so if there is an unpleasant run of events, he might well find it difficult to recover his operation. And imagine being in management there. The feral scum he employs has to have very thick skins because they have to spend all day fighting the rest of the planet.
Now compare RYR to AirBerlin! It would be interesting to see if "Goodwill" is an asset or a liability on a Ryanair balance sheet. Oh, and don't forget, who does Mr. O'Leary fly with on holiday? His airline or maybe someone else... Club World maybe?
€45K to fly for RYR - well you're mad if you take it, but if you have to feed the kids...
It is important to remember that Mr O'Leary's pilots are as loyal to him as he is to them. Neither owe each other. So when he doesn't pay the going rate, they'll leave. Currently the filthy Pikey has the biggest stick but history has a way of swinging back and forth, so when he has to count on loyalty, goodwill and team spirit his business will be totally and absolutely stuffed.
The same for his passengers. As long as it's (considered to be) cheap, they'll fly. Costs are now so tightly controlled that he becomes vulnerable to fuel price moves. I'm sure dealing with EU consumer organisations will take up an ever increasing amount of management time. Think about how much positive PR and news reportage he gets? Positive events such as the excellent piece of flying following multiple birdstrikes tend to be over-looked. The media is very negative towards RYR so if there is an unpleasant run of events, he might well find it difficult to recover his operation. And imagine being in management there. The feral scum he employs has to have very thick skins because they have to spend all day fighting the rest of the planet.
Now compare RYR to AirBerlin! It would be interesting to see if "Goodwill" is an asset or a liability on a Ryanair balance sheet. Oh, and don't forget, who does Mr. O'Leary fly with on holiday? His airline or maybe someone else... Club World maybe?
€45K to fly for RYR - well you're mad if you take it, but if you have to feed the kids...
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Have you gents seen this one? Hot off the Irish Revenue Commissioners presses via the 2011 Finance Bill:
Tax treatment of flight crew in international traffic.
SECTION 16
36. In page 37, before section 16, to insert the following new section:
The Principal Act is amended in Chapter 5 of Part 5 by inserting the following
section after section 127
127B ( 1 ) Income arising to any individual, whether resident in the State
or not. from any employment exercised aboard an aircraft
(a) that is operated in international traffic and
(b) where the aircraft is so operated by an enterprise that has its place
of effective management in the State
shall be chargeable to tax under Schedule E
(2} For the purposes of an arrangement to which this section and section
826 applies. 'international traffic' , in relation to an aircraft, does not include
an aircraft operated solely between places in another state "
An tAaire Airgeadais
It basically provides that staff working on board aircraft that owned by an Irish company are liable to Irish tax REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY ARE RESIDENT AND WHERE THEY EXERCISE THEIR DUTIES.
In other works, a German working for an Irish Airline who lives in Germany and flies from Germany to the US only might now be properly liable to Irish tax - even though he never sets foot in Ireland. Of course the various Double Tax Treaties might have something to say about this.
Tax treatment of flight crew in international traffic.
SECTION 16
36. In page 37, before section 16, to insert the following new section:
The Principal Act is amended in Chapter 5 of Part 5 by inserting the following
section after section 127
127B ( 1 ) Income arising to any individual, whether resident in the State
or not. from any employment exercised aboard an aircraft
(a) that is operated in international traffic and
(b) where the aircraft is so operated by an enterprise that has its place
of effective management in the State
shall be chargeable to tax under Schedule E
(2} For the purposes of an arrangement to which this section and section
826 applies. 'international traffic' , in relation to an aircraft, does not include
an aircraft operated solely between places in another state "
An tAaire Airgeadais
It basically provides that staff working on board aircraft that owned by an Irish company are liable to Irish tax REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY ARE RESIDENT AND WHERE THEY EXERCISE THEIR DUTIES.
In other works, a German working for an Irish Airline who lives in Germany and flies from Germany to the US only might now be properly liable to Irish tax - even though he never sets foot in Ireland. Of course the various Double Tax Treaties might have something to say about this.
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It will be interesting to see what happens now in terms of an irish government,If labour go into coalition there is likely to be new employment laws by the end of the year,The labour leader is on the record as saying that he will bring in legislation for mandatory union recognition.If this happens it would change the landscape for Ryanair pilots willing to take the fight back to the employeer.
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Effectively you're saying that MOL may be forced into a mandatory union recognition situation by the incumbent government! Labour and Fine Gael are traditionally pro-union; pro workforce.
That would give the entire workforce (not just pilots) a voice for the first time in 20 years....a chance to see a pay rise for the first time in ten years, etc etc.
The fact that union recognition will - according to that political leaders promises - come true will turn MOL's blood cold, he will resist vigorously but good riddens if this becomes law!
Looking at what the unions can achieve in BA and Shamrock recently. Its about time an Irish Governemt made union recognition mandatory in the interst of the welfare of all Ryanair staff particularly the Irish workforce.
It will force those
hole beancounters & MOL to consider the welfare of the staff, their work efforts i.e. the highest productive workforce in the industry, force them to acknowledge that gaping abyss between the massive profits/bank reserves that FR have yet the fact that the cabin crew (for example) are on less than the minimum wage!
I hope your post comes true WIDERED. Here's to e150,000 per yr for a new captain and not e54,000!
That would give the entire workforce (not just pilots) a voice for the first time in 20 years....a chance to see a pay rise for the first time in ten years, etc etc.
The fact that union recognition will - according to that political leaders promises - come true will turn MOL's blood cold, he will resist vigorously but good riddens if this becomes law!
Looking at what the unions can achieve in BA and Shamrock recently. Its about time an Irish Governemt made union recognition mandatory in the interst of the welfare of all Ryanair staff particularly the Irish workforce.
It will force those
hole beancounters & MOL to consider the welfare of the staff, their work efforts i.e. the highest productive workforce in the industry, force them to acknowledge that gaping abyss between the massive profits/bank reserves that FR have yet the fact that the cabin crew (for example) are on less than the minimum wage!- Oil approaching 200$ per barrell
- pilots/engineers/cabincrew leaving at an exponential rate to a better deal
- 37 new a/c in 2011
- the new coalition government about to force mandatory union recogntion
- am aviation industry across europe sick of MOLs trick/""deals""
- a low morale across the workforce
I hope your post comes true WIDERED. Here's to e150,000 per yr for a new captain and not e54,000!
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I really hope that you all get status as an employee with the new irish labour legislation... Then you all can join a union. RYR is damaging the proffesion. All of you should of course be an employee with employee rights!
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@ BuiltForSpeed
I hear what you're saying - it's a slap in the face - thing is, someone somewhere is gonna need / want the 4th bar that bad they'll take it. If it's the former then that's that, one would have to accept their (as I'm sure they'd admit) rather desperate circumstances.
I hear what you're saying - it's a slap in the face - thing is, someone somewhere is gonna need / want the 4th bar that bad they'll take it. If it's the former then that's that, one would have to accept their (as I'm sure they'd admit) rather desperate circumstances.
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ah lads come on. have you seen the amount of tax FR pays (prob not as much as it should) but still quite a bit. All new joiners have to pay tax in Irl so box ticked there. With the new legislation you cannot claim your tax back if you live and work in Girona (for example) so Irish coffers are getting some much needed revenue. (I think this is against the double taxation agreements in the E.U, but even so we'll see how it pan's out) My long winded point is FR is a big fish, Irl Inc is broke, so to conclude, all that nice chat from labour about union's will come to squat. But that's my opinion. I hope that I am proved wrong.
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If the irish gov try to impose things on Ryanair that hurt too much they would probably up sticks and move head office and re register the fleet to another country that was more user friendly to them. this is what hapened to shipping years ago, that used to be a good job too!
