The value of a First Officer versus the value of a Captain

[the aviator1977]

I would be interested in hearing opinions from Captains and First Officers on how they feel they are valued relative to their colleague sat next to them in the cockpit by airline management/accountants.

i.e Does a First Officer feel he is paid relatively well or not compared to a Captain taking into account each persons experience and vice versa? If an airline has £x to pay for two pilots up front, how would you fairly divide the pay 60:40 or 70:30. How do airlines decide this?

Are some UK airlines shortsighted in terms of investing in future Captains (i.e current FO's) and do they lack structure in the training/preparation for FO's to meet the challenges of being in command?

Are pilots de-valueing themselves by accepting lower T's and C's or is it down to market forces or a combination of both? How can WE as a collective group of pilots in the UK protect ourselves from the current trend of lowering T's and C's or do we just have to wait for an improvment in the economy? Is it out of our control?

Regards

The Aviator 1977

[B737-pilot]

somewhere 55:45

Well. T&C this is a long story.
Do you want to relocate, how many hours do you have? Lhs or Rhs.
And bear in mind that many companies went bust in some parts of the world. Don't forget about the type rating.
And i think the key factors are : We love our job and many of us don't have a back-up plan (like being a wall street trader ).

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I think with the growing numbers of 250hr pilots going straight to the rhs of medium size jets at the likes of ezy and fr, and the clear preference that these airlines have for recruiting low hour pilots rather than guys with previous experience, the value of the modern day f/o is without doubt in decline. Certainly in the view of airline management and accountants. New entrants to the industry are being offered, and are accepting, ever worse T&Cs. As a result the position is being exploited. Certainly at my airline the objective is to fill the seat as cheaply as possible with no regard to what the role actually entails. You can either view this as a side affect of supply exceeding demand, or a longer term problem.

[superced]

a first officer is a captain on training.

[411A]

a first officer is a captain on training.

Some airlines would have a hard time believing that short statement.

It's strictly supply versus demand, always has been, and unlikely to change anytime soon.

[412SP]

In some cases, the FO may have more experience than the captain, and at most large carriers the FO's have all been captains before.

Not that either seat is rocket science...

Seniority rules and always will in 121 flying.

[411A]

Seniority rules and always will in 121 flying.

This is not entirely correct.
I can offhand recall a couple of 14CFR121 aircarriers where this is not the case.
IE: generally true, but not always.

[412SP]

You're right. There's always an exception to the rule. Some carriers hire street captains, there's extenuating circumstances, etc, etc...

[captjns]

Regarding captains in training, 411 says:

Some airlines would have a hard time believing that short statement.

It's strictly supply versus demand, always has been, and unlikely to change anytime soon.

Not entirely true for cariers in India and China and some ME Carriers. Ab initio entrants are cultivated from day one into the airlines' culture up to their upgrade and sometimes beyond the line Captain.

F/Os at carriers ala FR or EZ may be a different story where the pay for their training, sit in the rigt seat until it's there time to upgrade and away they go after a year or two after their command upgrade to bigger and better. I don't know the philosophy of FR or EZ if the provide subtle hints or training while in the right seat to prepare their first officers for the left seat. Perhaps those pilots could shed light on the subject.

[fade to grey]

To be honest as the captain;
1.I'm legally accountable
2.I'll be sacked if it gos wrong
3.I could be prosecuted

as the FO:
1.Make the right calls/SOPs and any of the above will be unlikely for them

hence pay should be 80/20, yes , yes I'm biased

[Mikehotel152]

I don't know the philosophy of FR or EZ if the provide subtle hints or training while in the right seat to prepare their first officers for the left seat. Perhaps those pilots could shed ligt on the subject.

From the first day an FR cadet starts they are given access to a 'route to command' set of training notes and questionnaires which assume you are preparing for command from Day 1. The formal process starts at your first line check when you are assessed for command potential. You are expected to be studying throughout your first few years at the company so that you can immediately embark on upgrade when you have the minimum hours.

That learning curve is unfortunately being curtailed because of P2F. Sure, these cadets can pass a type rating and can operate the switches to the satisfaction of the company representative, but it's the FO who anticipates a problem I haven't considered who can really save the day (and for the bean-counters, fuel and/or time). You can't teach that in a classroom. That skill has to be gained through hard-earned experience.

Experienced FOs are not born, they are developed from 250hr newly qualified CPL/IR holders. I am on 500 hours on type now and feel I've learned a heck of a lot since I started this career, but I am modest enough to know that I have jack-all experience to call upon. Let's face it, the standard uneventful flights that I fly are the easy bit. It's when the chips are down that experience counts.

Does a First Officer feel he is paid relatively well or not compared to a Captain taking into account each persons experience and vice versa?

Well, I believe in a meritocracy where everyone is paid relative to their input to the money-making process. Do I do as much of the physical work on a flying day as the Captain? Yes, easily. Do I have the responsibility or stress of the Captain? No. At my company the Captain earns at least twice as much as the FO. Is he worth twice as much to the overall operation? Yes, probably, but he doesn't do twice as much work.

Just my humble opinions.
MH152

[fireflybob]

As Captain the value of the First Officers I fly with is priceless - I couldn't do my job effectively without them.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

To be honest as the captain;
1.I'm legally accountable
2.I'll be sacked if it gos wrong
3.I could be prosecuted

as the FO:
1.Make the right calls/SOPs and any of the above will be unlikely for them

I'm not so sure about that. While clearly the captain carries ultimate responsibility, it is defined as "crew error" in my airline. If it goes badly wrong it is most likely both pilots concerned will be dismissed. Just ask the TNT crew who made a mess at EMA and then BHX. And the Emirates crew who barely got airbourne in Melbourne. The F/Os' were shown the door along with their Captains'. It is interesting that some captains' believe they are the only one who will encounter serious repurcussions in the event of a major up.

[Mr.Bloggs]

411A's ramblings again

Captains are bred from F/O's, like it or not 411A. As were you.

So they may as well be trained along the way, by example as much as anything else granted. Your attitude on this topic stinks, old (very old) chap.

[captjns]

In my some 25 plus years as an airline training captain, I have and still enjoy imparting knowledge to first officers be they brand new or ready for their upgrade. I guess part of the imparting of knowledge is that I hope they remember what it was like being a brand new fresh out of the box first officer. I hope they will remember what it was like to fly with the worst of the worst beast master of captains to the best of the best nurturing captains that provided good CRM, techniques, and adherences to SOPs, etc. I guess what I'm trying to convey is thay when that F/O assumes their command, that they too will provide good information, and be patient to their first fresh out of the box F/O that they will be paired with.

perhaps some captains feel it an imposission flying with a newbie. After all when they interviewed for their job, probably as an F/O "nurturing kind captain was not part of their job description. But I'm sure more than less old salts feel it as a passing on of a legacy from one generation to the next, and automatically include the term teacher as part of their own job description.

BTW... I've always said that some of my best instructors have been the students I've flown with.

[poina]

fireflybob,

Sir, your post # 13 is the truest statement on this thread. I might also add my thanks to all the FO's who I benefited from when new on different types and they were old hands. Any captain who can't learn from the FO is too arrogant for this profession!

[clanger32]

Captjns/Fireflybob,
At this point it's highly highly unlikely i'll ever get to make the leap to employed pilot. Combination of factors and it's not certain, things can always change, but thank you. Sincerely. Thankyou for showing a human side and I consider it a great shame that in all likelihood I will never get to fly with the likes of you.

The Captain is clearly the master of the ship. Clearly it is the skipper that carries ultimate responsibility, but I would suggest that even the greenest of FOs has a vital role to play on the flightdeck. I get so tired of people's short memories, when they slate the newbies and their lack of experience - there seems a lack of understanding that even the most grizzled of 20000+ hour captains was once also that 200hr newbie (albeit quite possibly not in the RHS of an MRJT at that point)

[Chesty Morgan]

The basic fact is that if you haven't got one then you can't have the other.

So, as far as the operation is concerned, they are both equally as valuable.

[Callsign Kilo]

Some of the best Captains that you fly with are those that respect your position as a FO. I have continually flown with a handful of skippers from my days of relative infancy to a later position of greater experience. They have always made me feel very comfortable in their presence and are inviting of opinion.

Alternatively there is always some arsehole who believes that the flight deck isn't a democracy and even if the FO is right, he is wrong (that old "you may be right but I'm left" expression). When you learn a little bit more about their background, their demeanour in the flight deck appears psychological. They appear relatively insecure with regards to their own position and abilities. Instead they conceal it with the "I'm the Captain" bullsh1t and all the other bloody bravado which they feel the need to exert.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Alternatively there is always some arsehole who believes that the flight deck isn't a democracy and even if the FO is right

I understand your point but in fairness the flight deck is not a democracy. A final decision has to be made and that has to come from the captain. The f/o's input should receive consideration but a democracy suggets complete equality which cannot always be the case, particularly in a non-normal situation. There needs to be a gradient in the flightdeck from left seat to right - just how much of a gradient required to achieve optimum levels of safety and efficiency is the matter of some debate.