Line Training Is Destroying The Airline Pilot Industry
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Come on guys... it is a bit far fetched to say that F/Os will be sat in the RHS with
Anyway, what do you expect the SRG to do? The CAA will not get involved with what are essentially 'ethical' decisions i.e. we don't like what is going on, because it is not fair. It is the unions that can really only make the first move but as you will see in my previous post, their members in the airlines concerned, have (what they view as) far more pressing issues to deal with.
50 hours total time in the right seat.
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I remember from the dim and distant past of my early days that "Jet" jobs were more difficult to secure because the companies concerned were hog tied by their insurance underwriters.
It was common to be told " You need 3000 hours total turbine time to come and fly our shiny jets young man, our underwriters said so"
1500 hours or so on multi pistons to get your first TP job etc, etc.
What i'm saying I guess is why aren't the unions lobbying the insurance underwriters? They more than anyone have the clout needed to redress this issue.
After all our car insurance premium reduces with experience and it used to be that way for airlines.
Just a thought
.
It was common to be told " You need 3000 hours total turbine time to come and fly our shiny jets young man, our underwriters said so"
1500 hours or so on multi pistons to get your first TP job etc, etc.
What i'm saying I guess is why aren't the unions lobbying the insurance underwriters? They more than anyone have the clout needed to redress this issue.
After all our car insurance premium reduces with experience and it used to be that way for airlines.
Just a thought
.
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Sorry, NO! It is the EMPLOYERS who accept P2F that are the issue here!
I believe the onus of responsibility is on the individual to reject these scheme's rather than fork out mum and dads dosh in order to skip the que. I daresay you'd soon find that the P2F providers would very soon shut up shop with no customers. I dont believe that its enough to pass P2F off as 'inevitable' or 'becoming the norm' simply because these oafs have made little or no effort to get a job and see paying thier way as a viable alterative!
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I have an idea, a bit like the tighter regulation one but cruder. Make all pilots retire after 30 years commercial experience, (I was going to state retire at 50). That way youve had a good innings and earnt some good money, less pilots able to fly = better t's and c's and if your a career changer like me at 37 with 250 hours you might get a job instead of an eviction notice whippee.....everyones a winner even the school boy who can spend mum and dads money.
I await the abuse!!!
I await the abuse!!!
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only flight schools who have "contract" with airline will survive.
the one who don't find any airlines to work with through P2Fschemes will slowly die as students will turn their head away.
it s not a win/win situation for pilots, but a win lose situation.
at the end of the "line training", you are out. and you have to start again a new line training, even if you have 2000000 hours of jet.
line training, what it is? it s a training to be familiar with the lines and the plane, before you are fully release as a copilot/ captain.
but in this system, you are not release as a copilot or captain, you are simply KICKED OUT!!! for th next one who take your job becasue he has a nice cheque in his hands...
anyway, if you are too naive to understand that, i wonder how you passed you written test. I wish you good luck to find a job with no money left...
nobody will give you a job anyway, as it s all P2F then OUT!
have fun in your carousel jet!
the one who don't find any airlines to work with through P2Fschemes will slowly die as students will turn their head away.
it s not a win/win situation for pilots, but a win lose situation.
at the end of the "line training", you are out. and you have to start again a new line training, even if you have 2000000 hours of jet.
line training, what it is? it s a training to be familiar with the lines and the plane, before you are fully release as a copilot/ captain.
but in this system, you are not release as a copilot or captain, you are simply KICKED OUT!!! for th next one who take your job becasue he has a nice cheque in his hands...
anyway, if you are too naive to understand that, i wonder how you passed you written test. I wish you good luck to find a job with no money left...
nobody will give you a job anyway, as it s all P2F then OUT!
have fun in your carousel jet!
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A320rider. Its not all as bad as it seems. The last batch of Easy OAA self sponsord TRs have all been made permanent, after some time on the line and were paid during their line flying.
Last edited by rogerg; 29th Jun 2010 at 05:41. Reason: spelling
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rogerg, the OAA Easy and Ryanair deals are not P2F, they are SSTR. These contracts are a different ball game. I agree with A320rider regarding the pay for line training system, line training is to familiarise the FO with the everyday running, operations and procedures of the specific airline, under the supervision of the line trainers before being released upon the rest of the companies commanders, it is not a transferable skill, move to another company after your time is up,you do more line training, learn different sops, etc....however some are successful in their endeavours with P2F and I wish them luck. Please don't confuse P2F with FR and Easy, whatever peoples views are, they offer some form of contract after completion of line training, and the FO receives pay during this period, a good way to get into the industry at the moment.
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not too bad for now, but I know several companies who offer P2F and they don't give a job after the "line training". Yes, I got some offers but I am not interested to pay then be out of job after 6 months.
airlines will have soon to compete with these airlines who offer only P2F.
probably Oxford is the best deal in this tough environment, but how long they are going to keep their pilots when they will discover they can even rack more money from these poor wanabe jet pilots.
I know some guys who pay to fly, with no job guaranty at the end.
even no starting date guaranty and no refund guaranty.
So it s not what I hear on line about these people who say oxford is a good deal, that will change my mind.
I believe some guys here work for Oxford and say oxford is a good deal..
airlines will have soon to compete with these airlines who offer only P2F.
probably Oxford is the best deal in this tough environment, but how long they are going to keep their pilots when they will discover they can even rack more money from these poor wanabe jet pilots.
I know some guys who pay to fly, with no job guaranty at the end.
even no starting date guaranty and no refund guaranty.
So it s not what I hear on line about these people who say oxford is a good deal, that will change my mind.
I believe some guys here work for Oxford and say oxford is a good deal..
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A320 rider
Your credibility diminishes every day my friend.
Have a look on the tech log forum where A320 rider is claiming to be a TRE on the A320 but isasking how to work out reciprocal headings and why holding patterns are based on inbound legs!!!! And youre asking how other people passed their written test!!!!
Sort it out......
Your credibility diminishes every day my friend.
Have a look on the tech log forum where A320 rider is claiming to be a TRE on the A320 but isasking how to work out reciprocal headings and why holding patterns are based on inbound legs!!!! And youre asking how other people passed their written test!!!!
Sort it out......
Last edited by SW1; 29th Jun 2010 at 13:46.
If you are a low cost airline executive the business case is too compelling to ignore. Instead of the airline training costs coming of the bottom line, it can now be a profit centre (as most type rating course are priced well above their actual cost to the airline). Plus DOC's can be reduced by having a pool of free (or even better P2F) copilots. Therefore it appears the new model for most new joiners will be self sponsored type rating followed by a period of no pay or P2F line training followed by a period of payed contract flying (only payed when actually working) hopefully eventually followed by a full time permanant position. The allready huge supply of desperate wannabe's can keep this sheme going for years and every new graduate from the airline puppy mills just perpetuates the atatus quo.
However I guess there is a glimmer of good news as it seems impalusable that you can run an airline with only lowtime FO's as training capacity, schedual stabilty, and replacements for retiring/leaving captains would seem to require a core of "traditional" full time permanant FO's.
Wannebe's best be prepared for a long hard slog before they can secure a "real" airline job, sadly it is the new reality.....
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Pilotcop
rogerg, the OAA Easy and Ryanair deals are not P2F, they are SSTR
FR is an SSTR - no argument there.
However, the current OAA/Easy setup is a £35k SSTR along with 75hrs on the line - that to me makes a line training package to give an insignificant number of hours on type perhaps with the illusion that you become more marketable than a 'basic' SSTR. You then MAY POSSIBLY become a brookfield-style contractor under Parc who may or may not get you any additional Easy hours at £50ph.
That being said, I read some/all of the initial intake of 20 are now on permanent (or at least better) contracts which is nice but by no mean guaranteed in the initial training contract.
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Phil,
Whilst what you say is 100% accurate, OAA does, in fairness - extend the "skills whatsitmethingy" to the EZY scheme - therefore I think I'm right in saying that if EZY subsequently don't take on the successful candidates after this line training, AP dips his hand into his pocket.
Whether and to what to degree that applies to any particular aspect, I don't know without looking into it and certainly the requirement to self fund 75 hours of line training is loathsome and places this scheme - IMHO - into some grey area between a SSTR and a P2F scheme. It's neither one thing or another.
Whilst what you say is 100% accurate, OAA does, in fairness - extend the "skills whatsitmethingy" to the EZY scheme - therefore I think I'm right in saying that if EZY subsequently don't take on the successful candidates after this line training, AP dips his hand into his pocket.
Whether and to what to degree that applies to any particular aspect, I don't know without looking into it and certainly the requirement to self fund 75 hours of line training is loathsome and places this scheme - IMHO - into some grey area between a SSTR and a P2F scheme. It's neither one thing or another.
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Clanger
Well I stand (well sit eating Tea & drinking Toast) corrected - I hadn't delved that deeply into the small print. Actually makes it a reasonable alternative to Ryanair in some respects then.
Well I stand (well sit eating Tea & drinking Toast) corrected - I hadn't delved that deeply into the small print. Actually makes it a reasonable alternative to Ryanair in some respects then.
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Ah, D O , I think you may have misunderstood my point....I MEANT "IF they fail TR then AP would have to"....hence OAA send only people they think won't fail....cunning ploy really!
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You would have to hope that the Training Captains have the moral courage to fail someone who, despite their paying power demonstrate that they do not have the aptitude to fly commercially.
If they want to continue to burn money, failing Sim Checks, then great! Money into the Company!
Just keep up the legal, training paper trail to prove that the paying trainee is not up to it should Management come checking. Or is that being naive?
The military operate Operational Conversion Units (OCU) where ab-initios straight from Basic Flight School are inculcated with the ethos of flying operationally - commercially if you like i.e. the flying is no longer priority - now you learn to safely apply practically your knowledge through following mandated procedures in order to achieve an end result. Some do not progress beyong the OCU. They can fly but not apply, if you like.
Which brings me back to my first and second paragraphs.
I retire from the military in 6 years at age 55. I am non-pilot military aircrew but am a practising FI. I have also been an OCU Instructor.
If it appears that buying a Type Rating is the only way forward then I probably will consider it BUT I am under no illusion that I will be slower, that I am paying to be selected and that therefore it will be stressful to the extent that I might give-up, be chopped, not be employed!
I fully accept that gamble BUT I do believe - without conceit - that I have some modicum of safe ability (I have passed the PILAPT twice but eyesight failed me) and I know that my Airmanship is good - my Commercial Instructor and subsequently my IR Examiner commented favourably about that. However, where it might take some youngster 45 minutes to learn something, I know that it will likely take me the full 60 minutes plus I will be last to turn up at the bar due personal revision of the day's events!
Flying is not a game - it can bite. You have to intrinsically know what you are doing. No amount of cash can buy aptitude. Re my paragraph above - if, after fronting up cash for a Type Rating I come to my own conclusion that I cannot hack it then I WILL pull out. I do NOT want to kill anyone just because I have a dream. I just have to hope that other Type Rating payees have the same belief.
However, I will target my aircraft type carefully - maybe not even multi-engine, maybe not even a TP! Caravans, Pilatus, Let-410s, C404s, B1900s, JS31/41ss, SD360s, Kings, DHC-6s, BN-2s. I know little about these aircraft at the moment - it may be that they are too difficult to handle for a 55 year old, ex-FI. So be it - I will not try.
End!
Fly Safe, Folks.
If they want to continue to burn money, failing Sim Checks, then great! Money into the Company!
Just keep up the legal, training paper trail to prove that the paying trainee is not up to it should Management come checking. Or is that being naive?
The military operate Operational Conversion Units (OCU) where ab-initios straight from Basic Flight School are inculcated with the ethos of flying operationally - commercially if you like i.e. the flying is no longer priority - now you learn to safely apply practically your knowledge through following mandated procedures in order to achieve an end result. Some do not progress beyong the OCU. They can fly but not apply, if you like.
Which brings me back to my first and second paragraphs.
I retire from the military in 6 years at age 55. I am non-pilot military aircrew but am a practising FI. I have also been an OCU Instructor.
If it appears that buying a Type Rating is the only way forward then I probably will consider it BUT I am under no illusion that I will be slower, that I am paying to be selected and that therefore it will be stressful to the extent that I might give-up, be chopped, not be employed!
I fully accept that gamble BUT I do believe - without conceit - that I have some modicum of safe ability (I have passed the PILAPT twice but eyesight failed me) and I know that my Airmanship is good - my Commercial Instructor and subsequently my IR Examiner commented favourably about that. However, where it might take some youngster 45 minutes to learn something, I know that it will likely take me the full 60 minutes plus I will be last to turn up at the bar due personal revision of the day's events!
Flying is not a game - it can bite. You have to intrinsically know what you are doing. No amount of cash can buy aptitude. Re my paragraph above - if, after fronting up cash for a Type Rating I come to my own conclusion that I cannot hack it then I WILL pull out. I do NOT want to kill anyone just because I have a dream. I just have to hope that other Type Rating payees have the same belief.
However, I will target my aircraft type carefully - maybe not even multi-engine, maybe not even a TP! Caravans, Pilatus, Let-410s, C404s, B1900s, JS31/41ss, SD360s, Kings, DHC-6s, BN-2s. I know little about these aircraft at the moment - it may be that they are too difficult to handle for a 55 year old, ex-FI. So be it - I will not try.
End!
Fly Safe, Folks.
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Covec,
Please do not believe any of the complete twaddle regarding age ( and being replete there of ).
Granted, those 'with parents paying their dowry' into FR tend to be young, but many operators value guy's like you in their stable. Suggest you visit Biz Jets mate.
Their ain't anyone under 40 in our small private operation. ( all ex Mil )
Best regards,
BN
Please do not believe any of the complete twaddle regarding age ( and being replete there of ).
Granted, those 'with parents paying their dowry' into FR tend to be young, but many operators value guy's like you in their stable. Suggest you visit Biz Jets mate.
Their ain't anyone under 40 in our small private operation. ( all ex Mil )
Best regards,
BN
That Guy - are you trolling?
As others have noted, 'line training' is a clearly defined and structured stage of flying training where you fly solely with line training Captains who drills you with the company's SOPs. It only lasts about 100 hours until the Line Check is passed. After that point the 'learning' really begins.
Pay to Fly schemes presumably offer an hours package incorporating 'line training'. The extent and quality of that 'training' is debatable and I have only snippits of inside knowledge. Put it this way, I wouldn't fly as a pax on a budget airline outside Europe or the US.
Of little comfort to those who have an intrinsic dislike of loco operators but the honest truth in my humble experience: the relatively low hour Captains who joined straight from flight school and gained experienced at my airline before being upgraded are generally very good and safe, if a little anal due to the indoctrination.
The best AND worst Captains I fly with at my airline are those who arrived as direct entry Captains. Experience is important but there's no substitute for raw ability and common-sense. Having the hours in the logbook guarantees neither.
As others have noted, 'line training' is a clearly defined and structured stage of flying training where you fly solely with line training Captains who drills you with the company's SOPs. It only lasts about 100 hours until the Line Check is passed. After that point the 'learning' really begins.
Pay to Fly schemes presumably offer an hours package incorporating 'line training'. The extent and quality of that 'training' is debatable and I have only snippits of inside knowledge. Put it this way, I wouldn't fly as a pax on a budget airline outside Europe or the US.
Of little comfort to those who have an intrinsic dislike of loco operators but the honest truth in my humble experience: the relatively low hour Captains who joined straight from flight school and gained experienced at my airline before being upgraded are generally very good and safe, if a little anal due to the indoctrination.
The best AND worst Captains I fly with at my airline are those who arrived as direct entry Captains. Experience is important but there's no substitute for raw ability and common-sense. Having the hours in the logbook guarantees neither.
