fly a commercial plane with a privat license ONLY!, yes it's now possible.
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fly a commercial plane with a privat license ONLY!, yes it's now possible.
yes it's possible, no need to have the 14 ATPL + commercial+ MCC. only a privat license is needed as long you pay the airline to work.
it' s called the P2F!
This is the answer from the CAA in Gatwick.
even our government agrees about these P2F scheme and the massacre of this profession!!!
.
Although this Department is responsible for civil aviation policy matters, we do not have responsibility for any financial arrangements made between a pilot and an airline in order to gain experience in flying commercial aircraft. However, I am able to confirm that the Civil Aviation Authority is satisfied that self sponsorship by newly qualified pilots does not have any detrimental effect on safety.
it' s called the P2F!
This is the answer from the CAA in Gatwick.
even our government agrees about these P2F scheme and the massacre of this profession!!!
. Although this Department is responsible for civil aviation policy matters, we do not have responsibility for any financial arrangements made between a pilot and an airline in order to gain experience in flying commercial aircraft. However, I am able to confirm that the Civil Aviation Authority is satisfied that self sponsorship by newly qualified pilots does not have any detrimental effect on safety.
Ermm....
Much as I am no fan of P2F schemes, nothing you've written undicates you can fly as crew in a commercail operation with a private license.
You are either mistaken or attempting a wind-up.
Much as I am no fan of P2F schemes, nothing you've written undicates you can fly as crew in a commercail operation with a private license.
You are either mistaken or attempting a wind-up.
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Even with P2F you will need an fATPL and MCC before you can fly commercial, fare paying passengers after relevant base training.
Whilst many of us believe that P2F is abhorrent, until the 'pilot shortage' which has been forecast for the past 25 years appears then, the companies will continue to financially fleece those individuals who wish to be fleeced.
At least stick to the facts before posting.
Ps It's 'Private', 'Privat' produce porn films, not that I would know of course!
Whilst many of us believe that P2F is abhorrent, until the 'pilot shortage' which has been forecast for the past 25 years appears then, the companies will continue to financially fleece those individuals who wish to be fleeced.
At least stick to the facts before posting.
Ps It's 'Private', 'Privat' produce porn films, not that I would know of course!
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easy answer:
private license = you pay to fly
commercial = you are paid.
the problem is not only here , but in the responsibility of the CAA. the Airline, and the pilot paying.
what would happen in case of a crash? who is responsible?.
the copilot is paying to fly, he doesn't have the same responsibilities as a "real" copilot as he is still a "student", even with 450 hours on type.
he can go away with a : "I pay to fly, not my responsibility, go ask the CAA or my school"...
do passengers know that their pilots pay to fly???
private license = you pay to fly
commercial = you are paid.
the problem is not only here , but in the responsibility of the CAA. the Airline, and the pilot paying.
what would happen in case of a crash? who is responsible?.
the copilot is paying to fly, he doesn't have the same responsibilities as a "real" copilot as he is still a "student", even with 450 hours on type.
he can go away with a : "I pay to fly, not my responsibility, go ask the CAA or my school"...
do passengers know that their pilots pay to fly???
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easy answer:
private license = you pay to fly
commercial = you are paid.
the problem is not only here , but in the responsibility of the CAA. the Airline, and the pilot paying.
what would happen in case of a crash? who is responsible?.
the copilot is paying to fly, he doesn't have the same responsibilities as a "real" copilot as he is still a "student", even with 450 hours on type.
( the guy crash the plane after his line training. He has been released by a instructor captain.The pilot is STILL under training!!! the contract says he bought 500hours of line training. How is that possible??)
he can go away with a : "I pay to fly, not my responsibility, go ask the CAA or my school, they have copy of the contract, I am a student, I pay to fly!!!"...
do passengers know that their pilots pay to fly???
private license = you pay to fly
commercial = you are paid.
the problem is not only here , but in the responsibility of the CAA. the Airline, and the pilot paying.
what would happen in case of a crash? who is responsible?.
the copilot is paying to fly, he doesn't have the same responsibilities as a "real" copilot as he is still a "student", even with 450 hours on type.
( the guy crash the plane after his line training. He has been released by a instructor captain.The pilot is STILL under training!!! the contract says he bought 500hours of line training. How is that possible??)
he can go away with a : "I pay to fly, not my responsibility, go ask the CAA or my school, they have copy of the contract, I am a student, I pay to fly!!!"...
do passengers know that their pilots pay to fly???
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Are we not just starting a new thread with 'old' news. Pay to fly is here and has been for some time. It's wrong but it's here. The original post implies usage of a Private Pilots License which clearly you cannot use.
Going over old ground and wasting bandwidth!
Going over old ground and wasting bandwidth!
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Flyhelico,
Whilst you logic seems to fit the title it is not that simple.
As a Private Pilot you are not, legally, allowed to profit from the action of excercising your priviliges of licence.
As a commercial pilot you are. Whether or not you wish to 'prostitute' yourself in the vague hope of putting yourself ahead of your peers with respect to the all elusive first job is entirely a personal choice.
The Captain is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight. End.
The Co-Pilot, if he has passed base training, line training and an OPC/LPC has the same responsibilities as any other co-pilot anywhere in the world. The fact that he is 'paying' to be there doesn't make him a 'student' or any less responsible for the lives of the passengers.
As I have said before I disagree strongly with P2F. I feel that we are gaining an era of pilots who don't necessarily have the best skills or temperament for the job but have the deepest pockets.
There is, sadly, nothing illegal about the practice.
Whilst you logic seems to fit the title it is not that simple.
As a Private Pilot you are not, legally, allowed to profit from the action of excercising your priviliges of licence.
As a commercial pilot you are. Whether or not you wish to 'prostitute' yourself in the vague hope of putting yourself ahead of your peers with respect to the all elusive first job is entirely a personal choice.
The Captain is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight. End.
The Co-Pilot, if he has passed base training, line training and an OPC/LPC has the same responsibilities as any other co-pilot anywhere in the world. The fact that he is 'paying' to be there doesn't make him a 'student' or any less responsible for the lives of the passengers.
As I have said before I disagree strongly with P2F. I feel that we are gaining an era of pilots who don't necessarily have the best skills or temperament for the job but have the deepest pockets.
There is, sadly, nothing illegal about the practice.
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If properly selected, how does the motivation change one's competence as a pilot exactly? P2F has a terrible effect on the industry, but everyone started somewhere, be it in turboprops or straight onto quad-jets as freshly-minted cadets did at BOAC/BA, Cathay, AF, KLM and many others.
I would worry more about slack training standards and selection criteria, which have been the root cause of more deaths, and with more experienced crew.
PS - please write in coherent sentences with logic.
I would worry more about slack training standards and selection criteria, which have been the root cause of more deaths, and with more experienced crew.
PS - please write in coherent sentences with logic.
easy answer:
private license = you pay to fly
commercial = you are paid.
private license = you pay to fly
commercial = you are paid.
Correct? No.
You do actually understand what a pilots license is, and that they come in various grades, yes?
You cannot be a pilot in a commercial operation with a private license, no matter who is paying what.
As to the rest, as has been stated, responsibility does not change. A Private Pilot paying to fly a privat aircraft still bears the same responsibility for the safe conduct of his operation as does a commercial pilot.
P2F sucks. Just not for any of the reasons you've stated.
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Wizofoz,
a "privat" aircraft? Is that something to do with the mile high club then?
P2F - Utterly odious and contemptuous as it is, has been allowed to become the norm. As a newly minted fATPL (well, minted 15 months ago, with still no sniff of a job) you can however see the attraction, as frankly there's less and less chance of a job the "normal" route, even when the economy has properly sorted itself out. The airlines are wolves and they have scented blood.
One point however, that I think is often overlooked in the blind fury of the mob baying at P2F....I don't think there are many (any?) P2F schemes where you can LITERALLY P2F. All of the ones I've seen include a fair degree of aptitude testing....alright I'm sure the aptitude levels are given some flex, but I don't believe it's the case that's repeated ad nauseam "have you got the money? Well WELCOME TO THE RHS!" for the most part...
a "privat" aircraft? Is that something to do with the mile high club then?
P2F - Utterly odious and contemptuous as it is, has been allowed to become the norm. As a newly minted fATPL (well, minted 15 months ago, with still no sniff of a job) you can however see the attraction, as frankly there's less and less chance of a job the "normal" route, even when the economy has properly sorted itself out. The airlines are wolves and they have scented blood.
One point however, that I think is often overlooked in the blind fury of the mob baying at P2F....I don't think there are many (any?) P2F schemes where you can LITERALLY P2F. All of the ones I've seen include a fair degree of aptitude testing....alright I'm sure the aptitude levels are given some flex, but I don't believe it's the case that's repeated ad nauseam "have you got the money? Well WELCOME TO THE RHS!" for the most part...
Wizofoz,
a "privat" aircraft? Is that something to do with the mile high club then?
a "privat" aircraft? Is that something to do with the mile high club then?
If it flys, floats or ####s, it's cheaper to rent!!
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even if the OP's dubious logic is correct, then you still need a type rating to operate on a P2F scheme. which will require an a PPL with a valid ME IR (9 ATPL exams needed for this) plus a MCC. Hardly an easy way into the airlines.
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Um....... I don't hink so Mr Flyhelico, though I may be incorrect.
Amongst other things, doesnt the 5700 Kgs factor enter into it? If not, the facts below make it impossible anyway, I do think! feel free to correct us though!
PART A - FLIGHT CREW LICENCES
Section 1
United Kingdom Licences
Sub-section 1 - Aeroplane Pilots
Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age - 17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
1. Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of a Private
Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) shall be entitled to fly as
pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any
of the types or classes specified or otherwise falling
within an aircraft rating included in the licence.
2. He shall not -
a. fly such an aeroplane for the purpose of public
transport or aerial work save as hereinafter
provided:
i. he may fly such an aeroplane for the
purpose of aerial work that consists of:
aa. the giving of instruction in flying,
if his licence includes a flying
instructor’s rating, class rating
instructor rating, flight instructor
rating or an assistant flying
instructor’s rating; or
bb. the conducting of flying tests for
the purposes of this Order;
in either case in an aeroplane owned, or
operated under arrangements entered into,
by a flying club of which the person giving
the instruction or conducting the test and the
person receiving the instruction or undergoing
the test are both members;
aa. towing a glider in flight; or
bb. flight for the purpose of dropping
of persons by parachute;
in either case in an aeroplane owned, or
operated under arrangements entered
into, by a club of which the holder of
the licence and any person carried in
the aircraft or in any glider towed by the
aircraft are members;
b. receive any remuneration for his services as a
pilot on a flight save that if his licence includes
a flying instructor’s rating, a flight instructor
rating or an assistant flying instructor’s rating by
virtue of which he is entitled to give instruction
in flying microlight aircraft or self-launching
motor gliders he may receive remuneration for
the giving of such instruction or the conducting
of such flying tests as are specified in subparagraph
((a) (i)) in a microlight aircraft or a
self-launching motor glider.
c. unless his licence includes an instrument rating
(aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological
conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in
command of such an aeroplane:
i. on a flight outside controlled airspace
when the flight visibility is less than
3km;
ii. on a special VFR flight in a control zone
in a flight visibility of less than 10 km
except on a route or in an aerodrome
traffic zone notified for the purpose of
this sub-paragraph; or
iii. out of sight of the surface;
d. as pilot in command of such an aeroplane
at night unless his licence includes a night
rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification
(aeroplanes);
e. unless his licence includes an instrument
rating (aeroplane), fly as pilot in command or
co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class A,
B or C airspace in circumstances that require
compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules;
f. unless his licence includes an instrument
rating (aeroplane) or an instrument
meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes),
APPENDIX F SCHEDULE 8 OF AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005
SECTION A
APPENDIX F
Index
59
SECTION A
GENERAL INFORMATION LAS
Section A
GENERAL
INFO
Index Section L Section K Section J Section I Section H Section G Section F Section E Section D Section C Section B
fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an
aeroplane flying in Class D or E airspace in
circumstances that require compliance with
the Instrument Flight Rules; or
G. fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane
carrying passengers unless within the
preceding 90 days he has made three take-offs
and three landings as the sole manipulator of
the controls of an aeroplane of the same type
or class and if such a flight is to be carried out
at night and his licence does not include an
instrument rating (aeroplane) at least one of
those take offs and landings shall have been
at night.
Amongst other things, doesnt the 5700 Kgs factor enter into it? If not, the facts below make it impossible anyway, I do think! feel free to correct us though!
PART A - FLIGHT CREW LICENCES
Section 1
United Kingdom Licences
Sub-section 1 - Aeroplane Pilots
Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age - 17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
1. Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of a Private
Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) shall be entitled to fly as
pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any
of the types or classes specified or otherwise falling
within an aircraft rating included in the licence.
2. He shall not -
a. fly such an aeroplane for the purpose of public
transport or aerial work save as hereinafter
provided:
i. he may fly such an aeroplane for the
purpose of aerial work that consists of:
aa. the giving of instruction in flying,
if his licence includes a flying
instructor’s rating, class rating
instructor rating, flight instructor
rating or an assistant flying
instructor’s rating; or
bb. the conducting of flying tests for
the purposes of this Order;
in either case in an aeroplane owned, or
operated under arrangements entered into,
by a flying club of which the person giving
the instruction or conducting the test and the
person receiving the instruction or undergoing
the test are both members;
aa. towing a glider in flight; or
bb. flight for the purpose of dropping
of persons by parachute;
in either case in an aeroplane owned, or
operated under arrangements entered
into, by a club of which the holder of
the licence and any person carried in
the aircraft or in any glider towed by the
aircraft are members;
b. receive any remuneration for his services as a
pilot on a flight save that if his licence includes
a flying instructor’s rating, a flight instructor
rating or an assistant flying instructor’s rating by
virtue of which he is entitled to give instruction
in flying microlight aircraft or self-launching
motor gliders he may receive remuneration for
the giving of such instruction or the conducting
of such flying tests as are specified in subparagraph
((a) (i)) in a microlight aircraft or a
self-launching motor glider.
c. unless his licence includes an instrument rating
(aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological
conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in
command of such an aeroplane:
i. on a flight outside controlled airspace
when the flight visibility is less than
3km;
ii. on a special VFR flight in a control zone
in a flight visibility of less than 10 km
except on a route or in an aerodrome
traffic zone notified for the purpose of
this sub-paragraph; or
iii. out of sight of the surface;
d. as pilot in command of such an aeroplane
at night unless his licence includes a night
rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification
(aeroplanes);
e. unless his licence includes an instrument
rating (aeroplane), fly as pilot in command or
co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class A,
B or C airspace in circumstances that require
compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules;
f. unless his licence includes an instrument
rating (aeroplane) or an instrument
meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes),
APPENDIX F SCHEDULE 8 OF AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005
SECTION A
APPENDIX F
Index
59
SECTION A
GENERAL INFORMATION LAS
Section A
GENERAL
INFO
Index Section L Section K Section J Section I Section H Section G Section F Section E Section D Section C Section B
fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an
aeroplane flying in Class D or E airspace in
circumstances that require compliance with
the Instrument Flight Rules; or
G. fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane
carrying passengers unless within the
preceding 90 days he has made three take-offs
and three landings as the sole manipulator of
the controls of an aeroplane of the same type
or class and if such a flight is to be carried out
at night and his licence does not include an
instrument rating (aeroplane) at least one of
those take offs and landings shall have been
at night.
Last edited by wangus; 21st Apr 2010 at 13:11.
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Privat' produce porn films,
a "privat" aircraft
even if the OP's dubious logic is correct, then you still need a type rating to operate on a P2F scheme. which will require an a PPL with a valid ME IR (9 ATPL exams needed for this) plus a MCC
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Slightly off thread but doesnt John Travolta only have a PPL with a B707 rating on it? Ok its FAA but......
(If he just happens to add that on to his film fee at the end who is to know but the accountants!)
To use the logic of the original poster if I charter a big jet from my company (Yes it has happened many times in the past and will in the future!) to fly friends and family out for, say, a shopping trip to New York and thus 'pay to fly' I, as the Captain or the Co-Pilot, have no responsibility as I am paying to fly?
Doesn't really work does it?
The fundamental flaws in P2F have been discussed on this board at length. Adding another spin onto it won't help. While some airlines can make money out of it and there are enough pilots willing to be fleeced before being kicked out of the seat for the next drone with deep pockets to be inserted the practice will continue.
My concern is when this 'tranch' of pilots get their halcyon first job and start climbing the greasy pole. What will the Captains of the future be like in 10-20 years. Personally for me a scary thought!
