Was it good for you?
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Was it good for you?
Exceedingly disillusioned with the industry, what is keeping us here?
Terms and conditions continually being eroded, and no light at the end of the tunnel. Do we persevere with this industry or look elsewhere?
Been in it for 25+ years and cannot justify doing it anymore.
Yes the sunrises/sunsets are breathtaking, and I am doing my hobby, or other cliched references to our occupation.
There has to be a limit to the abuse we take? We, by nature are very conciliatory in our approach to the business, years of CRM have weakened/adjusted us to taking the bitter pill. When is enough, enough?
We are notoriously weak at being a collective entity when it comes to controlling our destiny, we will continue to be so. What will it take to come together and take back, not what is ours, but what is the industry/ideals that we joined this brethren for?
Tuck
Terms and conditions continually being eroded, and no light at the end of the tunnel. Do we persevere with this industry or look elsewhere?
Been in it for 25+ years and cannot justify doing it anymore.
Yes the sunrises/sunsets are breathtaking, and I am doing my hobby, or other cliched references to our occupation.
There has to be a limit to the abuse we take? We, by nature are very conciliatory in our approach to the business, years of CRM have weakened/adjusted us to taking the bitter pill. When is enough, enough?
We are notoriously weak at being a collective entity when it comes to controlling our destiny, we will continue to be so. What will it take to come together and take back, not what is ours, but what is the industry/ideals that we joined this brethren for?
Tuck
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pilots and drivers
Flying across Europe for the last 7 years now.
Started at 35 years old as commercial pilot. At 20 got my first job in a carfactory assembling automobiles, after that "promoted" to forkliftdriver.
I know what its like getting up to go to "work" and I know what its like to fly commercial planes.
A friend of mine, TRI/TRE, who is retiring next oktober told me once:
"there are pilots and there are drivers."
hundreds of drivers complain everyday, thousands of pilots are happy to go to "work" everyday.
Fed up with flying? the carfactory maybe an option
Started at 35 years old as commercial pilot. At 20 got my first job in a carfactory assembling automobiles, after that "promoted" to forkliftdriver.
I know what its like getting up to go to "work" and I know what its like to fly commercial planes.
A friend of mine, TRI/TRE, who is retiring next oktober told me once:
"there are pilots and there are drivers."
hundreds of drivers complain everyday, thousands of pilots are happy to go to "work" everyday.
Fed up with flying? the carfactory maybe an option
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Going back to the basics...
hundreds of drivers complain everyday, thousands of pilots are happy to go to "work" everyday.
Tuck, I'm not sure what you do, but based on the principal above, perhaps you need some additional perspective? When, for instance, did you last do some hands on, seat of your pants flying e.g. SEP aerobatics? Might remind you of why you started flying in the first place...
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Plus......yes, you may have taken a paycut, but so has almost everyone else apart from a few non-aviation branches.
If you think any 9-5 office job is better, go and try it.
I'd much rather fly for a crappy salary to various places with ever-changing challenges and professional co-workers than spend 8 hours every day sitting behind a desk typing away on a computer with 200 more people in the office doing the same. Wouldn't do it, even for twice the money. Seriously.
I know one needs money to sustain lifestyle and take care of family etc., but I'd rather not get rich my entire life and live it being happy than the other way round!
If you think any 9-5 office job is better, go and try it.
I'd much rather fly for a crappy salary to various places with ever-changing challenges and professional co-workers than spend 8 hours every day sitting behind a desk typing away on a computer with 200 more people in the office doing the same. Wouldn't do it, even for twice the money. Seriously.
I know one needs money to sustain lifestyle and take care of family etc., but I'd rather not get rich my entire life and live it being happy than the other way round!
Well before flying full time I worked as a careworker (and various factory jobs.) Long hours, frustrating, often not equiped to do job properly or safely (eg, lifting equipment) bad rosters, for an appallingly bad wage. I strongly felt they (managment) took advantage of the fact careworkers are, by their nature, careing and would accept last minute roster changes continually because to refuse would have a negative impact on the residents / patients quality of life.
My fiancee earns half what I do and if you include travel time, works at least a third more hours a week than I do. Whereas if I have a few days off, I might report 10 minutes earlier on the first day to catch up with notices etc before flying as normal, she returns to several hundred e-mails that need actioning.
I was talking in the pub a couple of days ago to someone who is a project manager for a car factory. He can be sent anywhere at short notice for indefinete periods. He has a wife and young child. If he is asked to go abroad he can be working away all week and get home at weekends, but if there is a problem he will be required to stay over the weekend. As he said 'If I was 25 and single, I'd love it but I can't live like this with a young family.'
Not saying we should accept the all the bad things that are coming into the industry, far from it, just that I think anyone thinking thats it's better outside the industry is probably deluding themselves.
My fiancee earns half what I do and if you include travel time, works at least a third more hours a week than I do. Whereas if I have a few days off, I might report 10 minutes earlier on the first day to catch up with notices etc before flying as normal, she returns to several hundred e-mails that need actioning.
I was talking in the pub a couple of days ago to someone who is a project manager for a car factory. He can be sent anywhere at short notice for indefinete periods. He has a wife and young child. If he is asked to go abroad he can be working away all week and get home at weekends, but if there is a problem he will be required to stay over the weekend. As he said 'If I was 25 and single, I'd love it but I can't live like this with a young family.'
Not saying we should accept the all the bad things that are coming into the industry, far from it, just that I think anyone thinking thats it's better outside the industry is probably deluding themselves.
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Something free for everyone - CHOICE
Tuck,
In the game of life there are victims and perpetrators. We can all choose which role to play. Or we can choose not to get involved in this game, to take 100% responsbility for our lives and create what we want.
I've not come on here to preach, but just want to help another human being. If you want to know more, PM me.
At the end of they day if you complain, you choose to do it. There are other options and they suddenly become obvious when you change your PERSPECTIVE. Decide what you really want to do with your life and make a change.
In the game of life there are victims and perpetrators. We can all choose which role to play. Or we can choose not to get involved in this game, to take 100% responsbility for our lives and create what we want.
I've not come on here to preach, but just want to help another human being. If you want to know more, PM me.
At the end of they day if you complain, you choose to do it. There are other options and they suddenly become obvious when you change your PERSPECTIVE. Decide what you really want to do with your life and make a change.
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Tuck, please just put your notice in. People like you are no fun to fly with - you bring me down.
I still love aviation, it makes me feel alive. And its no small consolation that there are millions of people who would love to do my job. All jobs become tiresome at some point. I'm sure that day might come for me and when it does I'll find something else to do or just put up with it. Moaning about it here is not going to help.
I still love aviation, it makes me feel alive. And its no small consolation that there are millions of people who would love to do my job. All jobs become tiresome at some point. I'm sure that day might come for me and when it does I'll find something else to do or just put up with it. Moaning about it here is not going to help.
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I'm with tuck on this one. I don't think he's moaning, just questioning the reality of the lives of many pilots, perhaps with a view to making the "choice" someone mentioned earlier. I too am finding it harder and harder to justify staying in this industry. All factors have to be weighed up and maybe breathtaking sunsets just aren't making up for the downside any more.
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Hello,
Yeah I totally agree with you guys. No matter how much you enjoy your job your going to have off days. Don't you think David Beckham gets annoyed sometimes when he's alone in Milan playing for AC when all he wants is to be with his wife and kids in LA. However he's doing the job he loves so there has to be some sacrifice. Or musicians like Elton john or Madonna will get days were they just cant be bothered doing the same routine at a concert night after night. Thats life, we all have to work and you've just got to look at the bigger picture of whats out there.
P1.
Yeah I totally agree with you guys. No matter how much you enjoy your job your going to have off days. Don't you think David Beckham gets annoyed sometimes when he's alone in Milan playing for AC when all he wants is to be with his wife and kids in LA. However he's doing the job he loves so there has to be some sacrifice. Or musicians like Elton john or Madonna will get days were they just cant be bothered doing the same routine at a concert night after night. Thats life, we all have to work and you've just got to look at the bigger picture of whats out there.
P1.
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The problem for me is that flying is my poison and cure.
Yes i have days where ive had enough, but even after 2 days off im itching to get back up there again. I feel claustrophobic if i dont fly for a large period of time, you cannot beat the feeling of climbing away from the runway after having not flown for a while.
Yes im young and probably still wearing rosy tinted sunglasses, give it a few more years and maybe my views will have changed. For the moment though i wouldnt want to be doing anything else and besides im not much use at anything else otherwise.
Many people have asked me why i became a pilot, answer is always "because i didnt want to grow up and get a proper job!"
Yes i have days where ive had enough, but even after 2 days off im itching to get back up there again. I feel claustrophobic if i dont fly for a large period of time, you cannot beat the feeling of climbing away from the runway after having not flown for a while.
Yes im young and probably still wearing rosy tinted sunglasses, give it a few more years and maybe my views will have changed. For the moment though i wouldnt want to be doing anything else and besides im not much use at anything else otherwise.
Many people have asked me why i became a pilot, answer is always "because i didnt want to grow up and get a proper job!"
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Posted by IFORD
"After 30 years I'm kept here by the salary (3 times more than a bank branch manager of the same seniority, 2 times more than a hospital surgeon of the same seniority), by the 15 days home each month,"
I have to call B.S. on this one. Either your surgeons are extremely low paid in your country or you are exagerating. Surgeons in the US average $300,000 to $400,000. Some make even more than that. There are NO pilots anywhere in the world making 600 to 800k.
Aviation is full of a bunch of starry eyed dreamers willing to stab the next guy in the back by doing the same job for less. There is no shortage of morons willing to pay for a job either. If your idea of living out of a suitcase 14 to 16 days a month or more is a dream job then I feel sorry for you. I also feel sorry for your families if you even have one. I know many guys in th26 to 35 range that have neither a wife or girlfriend. Either they can't afford to go on a date or they are never around enough to satisfy non cheating women. I feel lucky enough to have made a life for myself before I got into aviation. Sorry Embry Riddle grads. That kool-aide isn't so sweet now is it?
Management around the world has finally figured out that no matter how little they pay pilots they will keep sending resumes. I just got an ad from WASINC for a 747 captain paying 132,000 a year. Pure crap. I bet they have guys lined up out the door for that job. Hey everybody, Colgan Airlines is hiring. I hear they pay upwards of $16,000 a year being based in Newark. Oh boy!!
I am on the way out of this business. It is a sick sick joke what it has become. Contrary to what many of aviation message board sheep believe, there is more to life other than flying planes or sitting in a cubicle. There is this crazy idea some people have of owning a business. You don't even have to sit in a cubicle for 40 years if you choose not to. Unlike the airlines your income is not limited by pilot unions, seniority and airline management.
Ya'll keep eating that turd sandwich and keep telling yourselves how good it is. Maybe one day I'll let you pay to work for me.
"After 30 years I'm kept here by the salary (3 times more than a bank branch manager of the same seniority, 2 times more than a hospital surgeon of the same seniority), by the 15 days home each month,"
I have to call B.S. on this one. Either your surgeons are extremely low paid in your country or you are exagerating. Surgeons in the US average $300,000 to $400,000. Some make even more than that. There are NO pilots anywhere in the world making 600 to 800k.
Aviation is full of a bunch of starry eyed dreamers willing to stab the next guy in the back by doing the same job for less. There is no shortage of morons willing to pay for a job either. If your idea of living out of a suitcase 14 to 16 days a month or more is a dream job then I feel sorry for you. I also feel sorry for your families if you even have one. I know many guys in th26 to 35 range that have neither a wife or girlfriend. Either they can't afford to go on a date or they are never around enough to satisfy non cheating women. I feel lucky enough to have made a life for myself before I got into aviation. Sorry Embry Riddle grads. That kool-aide isn't so sweet now is it?
Management around the world has finally figured out that no matter how little they pay pilots they will keep sending resumes. I just got an ad from WASINC for a 747 captain paying 132,000 a year. Pure crap. I bet they have guys lined up out the door for that job. Hey everybody, Colgan Airlines is hiring. I hear they pay upwards of $16,000 a year being based in Newark. Oh boy!!
I am on the way out of this business. It is a sick sick joke what it has become. Contrary to what many of aviation message board sheep believe, there is more to life other than flying planes or sitting in a cubicle. There is this crazy idea some people have of owning a business. You don't even have to sit in a cubicle for 40 years if you choose not to. Unlike the airlines your income is not limited by pilot unions, seniority and airline management.
Ya'll keep eating that turd sandwich and keep telling yourselves how good it is. Maybe one day I'll let you pay to work for me.
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Well I can sympathise with both views,
I get fed up, though, of people who have managed to make it out of crap non aviation jobs telling us how lucky we are. I don't understand it either because I thought those capable of being airline pilots would be those who would be doctors/dentists/ scientists - kind of the top percentage.
But all it seems to be these days is frustrated IT workers dreaming of the big jets.....
I get fed up, though, of people who have managed to make it out of crap non aviation jobs telling us how lucky we are. I don't understand it either because I thought those capable of being airline pilots would be those who would be doctors/dentists/ scientists - kind of the top percentage.
But all it seems to be these days is frustrated IT workers dreaming of the big jets.....
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What will it take to come together and take back, not what is ours, but what is the industry/ideals that we joined this brethren for?
You see, a lot of people are unsatisfied, but are things really that much worse than before for YOU? You speak of 'this industry'. Does this mean you are taking the broader view, that you are okay yourself but worried about the way things are going? In that case I agree with you.
I just want to make sure what exactly we are talking about.
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As mentioned by an earlier poster, life is tough everywhere. I've been a police officer 13 years. Not a bad job; £53K PA, 6 weeks hols, total job security etc... BUT, with the state the govt has left the nation's finances, the buzz words are "efficiency" and "savings." Lots of senior officer posts cut, opportunities for advancement have never been worse.
Recent joiners started with a worse pension, and it will get worse still. Workforce modernisation will see fewer sworn (read expensive) officers and more 'police staff' with 'designated powers.'
When we require say 200 new officers this year, literally thousands apply. A fair proportion are halfwits and more aren't suitable. More than 90% will fail. We have scores of vastly experienced Sergeants, fully qualified to Inspector who stand little/no chance of promotion for years.
Different ball park to professional piloting I know, but there are parallels to be drawn. I often to say to experienced PCs who incessently moan about their lot, well resign and see who else is willing to pay you £40K pa in the current climate. The answer to that in 95% of cases is nobody.
Recent joiners started with a worse pension, and it will get worse still. Workforce modernisation will see fewer sworn (read expensive) officers and more 'police staff' with 'designated powers.'
When we require say 200 new officers this year, literally thousands apply. A fair proportion are halfwits and more aren't suitable. More than 90% will fail. We have scores of vastly experienced Sergeants, fully qualified to Inspector who stand little/no chance of promotion for years.
Different ball park to professional piloting I know, but there are parallels to be drawn. I often to say to experienced PCs who incessently moan about their lot, well resign and see who else is willing to pay you £40K pa in the current climate. The answer to that in 95% of cases is nobody.
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opportunities for advancement have never been worse.
The parallel being: Cost savings are happening across the board (they will get worse after the election) and that will have an impact on the provision of the service provided. In the police world its quality of good officers with the possible result of a crime increase whilst in aviation its the experience level that is being eroded in some sectors with a potential impact on long term safety.
There are parallels and yes, its tough. Its at the bottom....but life will slowly get better. So if you've got your health, chin up and keep smiling.
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That's because the US is only has private healthcare despite the best interests of its new president to introduce a nationally funded system, I believe. Not sure its electorate could foresee the benefits. I can't speak for Italy but a London-based consultant surgeon would be on about £80,000 - £90,000 (don't worry, I'll convert that for you: $123,000 - $138,000) and I can just about imagine that a Captain in Italy with 30 years experience could be on almost twice that.
