List of "Pay-to-Fly" airlines
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Questions folks:
AngelOrange, Is it correct to name people on a public forum whilst you post anonymously..just a thought, given the amount emphasis there is on making the profession respectable again.
Others, some of the airlines mentioned are not pay to fly, this forum is like the FMS.. put rubbish in you get rubbish out! what could be a reasonable debate worthy of a higher profile is losing credability quicker than the government.
On another matter, when you do eventually get a job offer, no doubt the bonding arrangements will also stick in the throat of experienced type rated pilots as well... It's not easy to inform a 16000 hr Captain that he is going to be bonded for a year 15000GBP.. food for thought.
All the best
AngelOrange, Is it correct to name people on a public forum whilst you post anonymously..just a thought, given the amount emphasis there is on making the profession respectable again.
Others, some of the airlines mentioned are not pay to fly, this forum is like the FMS.. put rubbish in you get rubbish out! what could be a reasonable debate worthy of a higher profile is losing credability quicker than the government.
On another matter, when you do eventually get a job offer, no doubt the bonding arrangements will also stick in the throat of experienced type rated pilots as well... It's not easy to inform a 16000 hr Captain that he is going to be bonded for a year 15000GBP.. food for thought.
All the best
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Swiftair also offers those crap deals. They even fired many of their "expensive" pilots who were under a "normal" contract in order to hire new pay to fly guys on EMB 120 and ATR42/72.
I think Astraeus took/takes guys from Hub Air flight school.
I think Astraeus took/takes guys from Hub Air flight school.
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You guys are all making a big deal about something so simple to understand.
Supply and demand. There are too many pilots chasing too few jobs. As a result, the airlines can get quite creative with their money saving scenarios, knowing full well that there will always be applicants.
When it reverses, when there are not enough applicants and too many jobs, you will suddenly see some very attracted pay packages, and an end to this pay for training. That is why Burger King and the likes have what seems to be better offers than the airlines. Not enough applicants.
We haven't reached that point in the airline industry yet. I'm not too sure we will ever reach it. Take 9 out of 10 pilot wannabes who are just getting started, they'll gladly say "I'll fly for free!" to build experience and get an "in."
Supply and demand. There are too many pilots chasing too few jobs. As a result, the airlines can get quite creative with their money saving scenarios, knowing full well that there will always be applicants.
When it reverses, when there are not enough applicants and too many jobs, you will suddenly see some very attracted pay packages, and an end to this pay for training. That is why Burger King and the likes have what seems to be better offers than the airlines. Not enough applicants.
We haven't reached that point in the airline industry yet. I'm not too sure we will ever reach it. Take 9 out of 10 pilot wannabes who are just getting started, they'll gladly say "I'll fly for free!" to build experience and get an "in."
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Don't think you will find Astraeus take pay to fly guys since they divorced from Bond. Fly LAL are bust, only Fly LAL Charter exist, they don't take guys either. The BMI Scheme for A320 includes 150 hrs line training as part of a structured package.. unlike the EJ schemes, it is limited to 150hrs (or less if they mess up) Air Arabia do, but priced per sector through Northern Aviation, RAM do through EJ, as do Wizz. Lion Air, Jakarta also have a deal with EJ, but visa issues there. Rumour has it that some guys may be with a Greek operator, Elite. All in all, the reality is there is not that much capacity.. so the big question is.. where's all the money gone!
How could someone dispsarge this business with such great T@C along with the excellent job secutiy as shown in the you tube video
can folks really be that muppetty to fly?
can folks really be that muppetty to fly?
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aa73:
There's a bit more to it big guy. You can take your supply and demand curves and pie charts and flush them down the toilet. I see you are listed as in the USA (there are no Part 135 mins or Part 121 mins over here). A major point of this topic is that the pay to fly schemes are sytematically destroying the industry with every passing hour. You would think an airline would love to interview an experienced pilot. Every airline wants to be safe and experience directly relates to increased safety, right? Nope, the experienced pilot is expensive. Remember that Turkish Air crash at Schipol last year? What do want to bet that the Captain was so frickin' busy making sure that the FO things were being accomplished that he neglected to do one of his routine checklist items? This is wrong. Why not have two "experienced" pilots doing their job? Because it is EXPENSIVE to have two experienced pilots in the cockpit! Airline management could give a rat's ass if the passengers safety is put at risk. You cannot contradict that otherwisae they would have two experienced pilots in the cockpit....get it? Honestly, it is criminal what is going on. And for the people who think this is simply another pilot forum where we bitch about our salaries...please...this is about right vs. wrong on a massive scale.
There's a bit more to it big guy. You can take your supply and demand curves and pie charts and flush them down the toilet. I see you are listed as in the USA (there are no Part 135 mins or Part 121 mins over here). A major point of this topic is that the pay to fly schemes are sytematically destroying the industry with every passing hour. You would think an airline would love to interview an experienced pilot. Every airline wants to be safe and experience directly relates to increased safety, right? Nope, the experienced pilot is expensive. Remember that Turkish Air crash at Schipol last year? What do want to bet that the Captain was so frickin' busy making sure that the FO things were being accomplished that he neglected to do one of his routine checklist items? This is wrong. Why not have two "experienced" pilots doing their job? Because it is EXPENSIVE to have two experienced pilots in the cockpit! Airline management could give a rat's ass if the passengers safety is put at risk. You cannot contradict that otherwisae they would have two experienced pilots in the cockpit....get it? Honestly, it is criminal what is going on. And for the people who think this is simply another pilot forum where we bitch about our salaries...please...this is about right vs. wrong on a massive scale.
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The industry have turned in to ****. That's the good news.
The bad news is that now it attracts all those who think that's good news.
It is the very people who enter the profession that is perverting it.
The bad news is that now it attracts all those who think that's good news.
It is the very people who enter the profession that is perverting it.
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I work for RYR and I earn 2 to 3 times that of people in the equivalent job flying a TP for Flybe.
Anyway, whilst RYR are no longer exploiting pilots in the same way that EZY et al are, I get the sneaky feeling that they are still making a tidy profit from churning people through the system. Or are the rumours of fewer hours once you get onto higher pay scales not true? Does anyone know how many Brookfield FOs/Captains plus RYR direct employee flight crew there are in ratio to hulls? I suspect it's more than the usual 5:1, but would love to be proved wrong.
Pay to Fly is just the latest tool for airlines to cut costs and managers to earn bonuses, along with SSTR. The difference is that long term pay to fly is probably unsustainable, either due to economics or the inevitable smoking holes in the ground.
Short term the only option we have is to make this as high profile as possible. Write to the journos, your MP and MEP and tell it like it is. While we're at it we should lobby BALPA or the IPA or IALPA to do something useful like amending their careers advice pages/conferences to give an accurate portrayal of how newcomers to the industry can really expect to be treated. Maybe they could even use some of their contacts to get the CAA or DofT to take an interest. (OK, only joking on that last one....). It can't do any harm, it probably won't do much good, but it's better than doing nothing.
oap(eed off)
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The industry have turned in to ****. That's the good news.
The bad news is that now it attracts all those who think that's good news.
It is the very people who enter the profession that is perverting it.
The bad news is that now it attracts all those who think that's good news.
It is the very people who enter the profession that is perverting it.
. When that stops then maybe... just maybe our industry will once again gain some respect.On the flip side of the coin, the foibles of those who made the news of late isn't helping our cause either
.
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Perhaps we have just seen the tip of the iceberg!
What happens when the beancounting departments turn their sights on the £100k ('ish') Captains whom they could replace for half the price with highly experienced TP captains for the cost of a discounted TR?...and a bit?
One 'could' argue that this might just bring the overall salary overhead down to a more acceptable level and, kick start the once normal career path back into line, with a more affordable overall wage bill.
Not my view BTW, but someone somewhere, must be thinking along those lines!
Perhaps £100k salaries will become a thing of the past...sooner rather than later, given what's going on at the bottom end.
What happens when the beancounting departments turn their sights on the £100k ('ish') Captains whom they could replace for half the price with highly experienced TP captains for the cost of a discounted TR?...and a bit?
One 'could' argue that this might just bring the overall salary overhead down to a more acceptable level and, kick start the once normal career path back into line, with a more affordable overall wage bill.
Not my view BTW, but someone somewhere, must be thinking along those lines!
Perhaps £100k salaries will become a thing of the past...sooner rather than later, given what's going on at the bottom end.
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Does an airline who charges an exhorbitant amount for a TR but with guaranteed employment at the end count?
ie. Actual cost £14k ...... Industry standard SSTR approx. £20k ....... Airline X charges £30k+
Because if we do, we should list the legacy carriers as those who don't ask for those to pay to fly and list every other airline in Europe as falling under this banner. It would make a shorter list.
ie. Actual cost £14k ...... Industry standard SSTR approx. £20k ....... Airline X charges £30k+
Because if we do, we should list the legacy carriers as those who don't ask for those to pay to fly and list every other airline in Europe as falling under this banner. It would make a shorter list.
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For all the WRONG reasons , there are probably hundreds of inexperienced pilot wannabes reading this thread and frantically copying down every pay-to-fly Airline listed here. These "pilots" are thinking they are outsmarting everyone else , just to get ahead of the next guy. Just what this industry doesn`t need - we have enough of these snakes already thank you. I wonder how many are firing off CV`s and resume`s / applications just to spend a bit more of daddy`s money. Sickening.
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The industry is going through a transitional period.
Naturally some people are struggling to accept this fact.
Move on with your life, one way or another, the industry wont be the same again.
If you still want to be a pilot, you'll find a way, it may be a struggle financially but hang in there, sacrifices are needed. Alternatively, find another profession.
Maybe, just maybe, one day you'll be in command of wide body and will look back on this period thinking it made you a stronger person, and you'll be so thankful that you stuck it out.
I think it's about to for the complaining/analysing to stop....it's just so pointless now. Yeah I'll probably get flamed for this, but so what.
Naturally some people are struggling to accept this fact.
Move on with your life, one way or another, the industry wont be the same again.
If you still want to be a pilot, you'll find a way, it may be a struggle financially but hang in there, sacrifices are needed. Alternatively, find another profession.
Maybe, just maybe, one day you'll be in command of wide body and will look back on this period thinking it made you a stronger person, and you'll be so thankful that you stuck it out.
I think it's about to for the complaining/analysing to stop....it's just so pointless now. Yeah I'll probably get flamed for this, but so what.
Quote- ''But no journalists will help us.''
No, but they can sway public opinion which will lead to legistlation changes when the regulators get enough presssure to do so. There's enough opinion that this is is bad thins, with a bit of publicity and enough momentum I reckon we could see the end of these schemes.
No, but they can sway public opinion which will lead to legistlation changes when the regulators get enough presssure to do so. There's enough opinion that this is is bad thins, with a bit of publicity and enough momentum I reckon we could see the end of these schemes.
I sometimes wonder why the self sponsoring is under such flack. Not many professions, certainly not in higher education, are sponsored?
If you want to become a doc, you need to self sponsor your University education. Likewise for MBA's or the likes. Do they get lesser standards due to that? I don't think so, the washout process still applies, a bad doc won't advance or even pass his exam, no matter how much they choke up.
Up so far, any profession I have been in, I had to pay for my education enabling me to even apply for that position. Is that abnormal? I don't think so. Yea, right, McD or Tesco may have better conditions on paper, but is it really worth giving up the jobs you aspire for, just because it's easier?
I know, this means that a lot of talented people won't make it into the airlines because they can't afford it, while less talented ones will, but that is a fact of life in just about any profession requiring a higher education. Unless we want to go back (or go towards because outside the East Block it was never like that here) to purely state controlled education, that is the way things are, and even or especcially there, people did not get to their positions on merit either. (What was interesting for our work tough is that pilots had university degrees, something which might be very appropriate and useful here. After all, what lesser education does an ATPL with Jet rating e.t.c. have than e.g. a Lawyer apart from some of the academic requirements such as paper writing?)
For the rest, as has been said, it's a market thing. If the factor is 20 to 1 for each job, applicants will do whatever is demanded of them to get there if the job is still attractive enough. Stopping that could only be achieved by restricting the right to free choice of jobs or by going back to the days when you had to be a military pilot in order to be considered, but this would not satisfy the demand on the market in either way.
Just my thoughts. Self Sponsored CPL/IR/FATPL here, not flying professionally anymore, but still in the industry. Regrets? Not really, past that. What I learnt enables me to do my current job and some more. Like not every MD will become a brain surgeon, not every pilot will make the front left.
If you want to become a doc, you need to self sponsor your University education. Likewise for MBA's or the likes. Do they get lesser standards due to that? I don't think so, the washout process still applies, a bad doc won't advance or even pass his exam, no matter how much they choke up.
Up so far, any profession I have been in, I had to pay for my education enabling me to even apply for that position. Is that abnormal? I don't think so. Yea, right, McD or Tesco may have better conditions on paper, but is it really worth giving up the jobs you aspire for, just because it's easier?
I know, this means that a lot of talented people won't make it into the airlines because they can't afford it, while less talented ones will, but that is a fact of life in just about any profession requiring a higher education. Unless we want to go back (or go towards because outside the East Block it was never like that here) to purely state controlled education, that is the way things are, and even or especcially there, people did not get to their positions on merit either. (What was interesting for our work tough is that pilots had university degrees, something which might be very appropriate and useful here. After all, what lesser education does an ATPL with Jet rating e.t.c. have than e.g. a Lawyer apart from some of the academic requirements such as paper writing?)
For the rest, as has been said, it's a market thing. If the factor is 20 to 1 for each job, applicants will do whatever is demanded of them to get there if the job is still attractive enough. Stopping that could only be achieved by restricting the right to free choice of jobs or by going back to the days when you had to be a military pilot in order to be considered, but this would not satisfy the demand on the market in either way.
Just my thoughts. Self Sponsored CPL/IR/FATPL here, not flying professionally anymore, but still in the industry. Regrets? Not really, past that. What I learnt enables me to do my current job and some more. Like not every MD will become a brain surgeon, not every pilot will make the front left.
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Unfortunately N2 Driver, with the relaxed training, and the industry "needs" you that at times happens in aviation even the most untalented, unmotivated and undeserving make the front left, seen many co-pilots holding the hand of the man on the left during an approach, in europe and out here in the pit
PS Bahrain Air in the Middle East also uses the PTF scheme.
PS Bahrain Air in the Middle East also uses the PTF scheme.
It never ceases to amaze me that there is a continual stream of 'professional pilots' who are prepared to do anything to enter an industry which has been going down the tubes for so long. What deluded ideas do they have of their futures - the prospect of thirty five years of ever reducing terms and conditions allied to increasing workloads in an evermore automated workplace would fill me with dread !
The industry is awash with young wannabee pilots with no experience whose licence has been paid for by wealthy parents; some ( not all ) seem to think they have a god given right to £50k in the rhs seat of a widebody jet and all the crumpet they can attract. And yes, the pressure is not just at the bottom end - all significant carriers are acutely aware that they have vastly overpaid senior pilots, usually with heavy training emoluments, who they would love to get rid of but are unable to do so due to legislation. Salary and allowance levels gained over many years are an aberration to company management whose bonus payments depend upon reduced expenditure. So the pressure is on for unions to make a stand against such trends but the effects of recession give the Airlines a huge trump card in any negotiations for the forseeable future.
The industry is awash with young wannabee pilots with no experience whose licence has been paid for by wealthy parents; some ( not all ) seem to think they have a god given right to £50k in the rhs seat of a widebody jet and all the crumpet they can attract. And yes, the pressure is not just at the bottom end - all significant carriers are acutely aware that they have vastly overpaid senior pilots, usually with heavy training emoluments, who they would love to get rid of but are unable to do so due to legislation. Salary and allowance levels gained over many years are an aberration to company management whose bonus payments depend upon reduced expenditure. So the pressure is on for unions to make a stand against such trends but the effects of recession give the Airlines a huge trump card in any negotiations for the forseeable future.
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Slightly off thread here, it is worth mentioning that whilst we all appreciate the whole industry is in a mess, for a number of reasons, it is not only the "wannabes" that find this "situation" frustrating.
Senior pilots are constantly encouraged to find ways of saving operational costs, one could argue that this rationale is protecting their jobs, and that goes without saying, however the primary undercurrent to " reduce the cost per cockpit" is now resulting in an experience gradient verging on dangerous. The highly paid training Captain wants to keep a job and as such accepts that sitting next to a guy with 170 hrs on a mid haul flight is now par for the course, the ordinary line Captain doesn't really want to go into training..why fly every hour god sends and get bogged down in paperwork. These days, a lot of TCs are only paid suppliments when training, they still accept this as their training credits are kept current. The ordinary line Captain gets to fly with the " finished product", only to find the guy gets canned as his paid sectors have finished.. again no stability, and a potential CRM nightmare. All this is very bad for the industry, safety, standards and morale.
The monies saved on crew wages with these schemes seems to dissapear into a black hole, whenever I question this practice I am told this is keeping me in work!
I am aware that some ACMI companies used to use practically every sector for line training, a lot of this was stopped by the clients and hull insurers with the caveat " only company employees to be trained". This has resulted in a shortage of capacity and a lot of people " started but not finished" sitting around waiting for sectors.
There is enough "fat" in the type rating course and line training costs to allow the TRTO/ partner airline to at least provide a small " training salary" whilst the student is line training. The real issue here is greed and reluctance to accept that the "suffering" should be evenly distributed, we cannot stop this practice but we can encourage change.
Senior pilots are constantly encouraged to find ways of saving operational costs, one could argue that this rationale is protecting their jobs, and that goes without saying, however the primary undercurrent to " reduce the cost per cockpit" is now resulting in an experience gradient verging on dangerous. The highly paid training Captain wants to keep a job and as such accepts that sitting next to a guy with 170 hrs on a mid haul flight is now par for the course, the ordinary line Captain doesn't really want to go into training..why fly every hour god sends and get bogged down in paperwork. These days, a lot of TCs are only paid suppliments when training, they still accept this as their training credits are kept current. The ordinary line Captain gets to fly with the " finished product", only to find the guy gets canned as his paid sectors have finished.. again no stability, and a potential CRM nightmare. All this is very bad for the industry, safety, standards and morale.
The monies saved on crew wages with these schemes seems to dissapear into a black hole, whenever I question this practice I am told this is keeping me in work!
I am aware that some ACMI companies used to use practically every sector for line training, a lot of this was stopped by the clients and hull insurers with the caveat " only company employees to be trained". This has resulted in a shortage of capacity and a lot of people " started but not finished" sitting around waiting for sectors.
There is enough "fat" in the type rating course and line training costs to allow the TRTO/ partner airline to at least provide a small " training salary" whilst the student is line training. The real issue here is greed and reluctance to accept that the "suffering" should be evenly distributed, we cannot stop this practice but we can encourage change.
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I have no problem in the current process of paying for flight training in order to gain the necessary qualifications required to fly commercially. As far as I'm aware - paying for flight training has always been the case, even as far back as the good old days, with the exception perhaps of those who trained in the military.
Maybe the prices have gone up a little bit more than they should be, particularly if you get hooked on the integrated courses just like I did - it would be very useful for trainee pilots to have some sort of flight training VAT exemption, but whether that ever happens remains to be seen. However - the part about pay-to-fly I DO NOT agree with....
Being taken on by an airline and "bonded" over a number of years so that you in effect repay the cost of your initial training by way of either a reduction on starting salary, or simply staying at the airline for 3/5 years whatever - I have no real issue with that - it makes business sense for the airline, and in my opinion is a fair and reasonable way of doing things.
However, the whole notion of moving things one step further - making the individual pilot pay the whole cost of your type rating in exchange for 75/100 hours of "line flying!, without a contract of employment, without any form of guarantee of further hours, and then to remain unpaid until your a fully line checked is an absolute disgrace.
It should be illegal. It sounds illegal. It's extortion, and if the paying public knew exactly who was piloting their plane on a given flight (of course, being line trained myself, yes there's a safety pilot or at least there should be), and what they'd had to do to get there - there would be outrage.
I hope these schemes are outlawed quickly - and the airlines responsible for this type of practice are held to account and made to explain why they explore this path for recruitment of their pilot workforce.
Maybe the prices have gone up a little bit more than they should be, particularly if you get hooked on the integrated courses just like I did - it would be very useful for trainee pilots to have some sort of flight training VAT exemption, but whether that ever happens remains to be seen. However - the part about pay-to-fly I DO NOT agree with....
Being taken on by an airline and "bonded" over a number of years so that you in effect repay the cost of your initial training by way of either a reduction on starting salary, or simply staying at the airline for 3/5 years whatever - I have no real issue with that - it makes business sense for the airline, and in my opinion is a fair and reasonable way of doing things.
However, the whole notion of moving things one step further - making the individual pilot pay the whole cost of your type rating in exchange for 75/100 hours of "line flying!, without a contract of employment, without any form of guarantee of further hours, and then to remain unpaid until your a fully line checked is an absolute disgrace.
It should be illegal. It sounds illegal. It's extortion, and if the paying public knew exactly who was piloting their plane on a given flight (of course, being line trained myself, yes there's a safety pilot or at least there should be), and what they'd had to do to get there - there would be outrage.
I hope these schemes are outlawed quickly - and the airlines responsible for this type of practice are held to account and made to explain why they explore this path for recruitment of their pilot workforce.