Pay to Fly - Classification
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Pay to Fly - Classification
Just out of interest, at what stage would the majority of PPRuNers reading this class someone as a PTFer? Just been reading on another thread how the term "PTF" is banded about when I imagine everyone who has attained a fATPL in the past 10 years has had to contribute in some form.
So PTF ..... at what stage do we sneer:
1./ After £50-80k CPL/ME/IR
2./ After £20k Jet TR?
3./ After £5-£15 Buying hours on type?
We do an aspirational job, no shortage despite the downturn emerging from Gatwick with a nice shiny blue A5 wallet.
Don't agree with things in our industry at present (is there anyone who does that isn't an accountant) but I can't see how it can be resolved, if I did, I'd have a temple erected and dedicated to me which all pilots could leave offering and and chant prayers to my omnipotence.
So PTF ..... at what stage do we sneer:
1./ After £50-80k CPL/ME/IR
2./ After £20k Jet TR?
3./ After £5-£15 Buying hours on type?
We do an aspirational job, no shortage despite the downturn emerging from Gatwick with a nice shiny blue A5 wallet.
Don't agree with things in our industry at present (is there anyone who does that isn't an accountant) but I can't see how it can be resolved, if I did, I'd have a temple erected and dedicated to me which all pilots could leave offering and and chant prayers to my omnipotence.
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Good question.
I think 1 & 2 are generally very difficult to avoid but at this stage you are not filling the seat of someone who would otherwise be feeding his/her family while being paid to be there.
3 however .....
I think 1 & 2 are generally very difficult to avoid but at this stage you are not filling the seat of someone who would otherwise be feeding his/her family while being paid to be there.
3 however .....
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Generally speaking a graduate from a university course has some expenditure and this is traditionally accepted as being necessary to gain the qualification.
However I know of no other industry where on receipt of basic qualification the candidate is required to invest many more thousands of pounds/euros to basically supplement the would-be employers profits!
However I know of no other industry where on receipt of basic qualification the candidate is required to invest many more thousands of pounds/euros to basically supplement the would-be employers profits!
Last edited by Man Flex; 11th Jan 2010 at 09:36.
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The line IS VERY CLEAR here!
DO NOT PAY TO WORK!!
This must end. Now.
If they would do so in my company, there would be an immediate strike, by ALL pilots until the management gave in, and believe me, if you strike they will give in. This is one case where we can have the public supporting us, and management WILL be described as the devil by the press. SO STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE to all working in airlines involved!!!
DO NOT PAY TO WORK!!
This must end. Now.
If they would do so in my company, there would be an immediate strike, by ALL pilots until the management gave in, and believe me, if you strike they will give in. This is one case where we can have the public supporting us, and management WILL be described as the devil by the press. SO STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE to all working in airlines involved!!!
number 2 maybe, number 3 without a doubt.
I wonder how many doctors pay the hospital they work at, or artists who pay the art collector to take their work, or teachers who pay a couple of hundred to the school principal each morning.
For those considering it, ask if you can accrue frequent flyer miles for each sector, seeing you have paid for a ticket :-)
I wonder how many doctors pay the hospital they work at, or artists who pay the art collector to take their work, or teachers who pay a couple of hundred to the school principal each morning.
For those considering it, ask if you can accrue frequent flyer miles for each sector, seeing you have paid for a ticket :-)
Last edited by Gligg; 11th Jan 2010 at 09:38. Reason: typo
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I can't sneer to number 1 category because I belong to it.
I sneer to number 2 pilots when they do it just to see what happens after doing it. But I can't sneer to those who partly pay the TR after being selected for the job, as I, I must confess, belong to that category.
As for category 3... I am convinced that this practice is not legal. And it puts in jeopardy my job.
So, not because of pilots' honour, profession or passenger safety, but for my job, the one that allows me and my familiy to survive is that I deeply hate category 3, and I will fight for my job.
Wouldn't you fight for your job...?
... Or are you going to fight for mine?
I sneer to number 2 pilots when they do it just to see what happens after doing it. But I can't sneer to those who partly pay the TR after being selected for the job, as I, I must confess, belong to that category.
As for category 3... I am convinced that this practice is not legal. And it puts in jeopardy my job.
So, not because of pilots' honour, profession or passenger safety, but for my job, the one that allows me and my familiy to survive is that I deeply hate category 3, and I will fight for my job.
Wouldn't you fight for your job...?
... Or are you going to fight for mine?
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To make things very very crystal clear; the only 2 times you shall pay to operate any aircraft is during initial training (up to CPL/fATPL and the FI course) and if you want to fly GA for recreational purposes. All other instances where you pay money to sit in an aircraft you had better be on the passenger side of the cockpit door.
Sneering at 2 and 3 then. It doesn`t even have to be a jet TR, as there are many companies operating both TP and piston who want you to pay. Doesn`t matter at all
It looks like there is a bit of goo old fashioned uprising about to happen in the near future. Not a day too soon.
Hopefully the larger, international unions will hear us calling and go into talks about changing, or amending, legislations.
Sneering at 2 and 3 then. It doesn`t even have to be a jet TR, as there are many companies operating both TP and piston who want you to pay. Doesn`t matter at all
It looks like there is a bit of goo old fashioned uprising about to happen in the near future. Not a day too soon.
Hopefully the larger, international unions will hear us calling and go into talks about changing, or amending, legislations.
Unions response to TRSS?
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Well my tuppence..
I think the line is reasonably clear..
1 and 2 are for the sake of things, TRAINING. At no point during your TR are the airlines making any real money out of you. There are no pax behind you, no revenue etc.
Although I went down route 1 and 2 (2 for my second airline - the 1st actually paid and bonded me!) I still felt bad about 2.
So with respect, I don't see how you can class 2 as PTF even though as said, I don't agree with it.
3...well that's blindingly obvious.
All the best.
I think the line is reasonably clear..
1 and 2 are for the sake of things, TRAINING. At no point during your TR are the airlines making any real money out of you. There are no pax behind you, no revenue etc.
Although I went down route 1 and 2 (2 for my second airline - the 1st actually paid and bonded me!) I still felt bad about 2.
So with respect, I don't see how you can class 2 as PTF even though as said, I don't agree with it.
3...well that's blindingly obvious.
All the best.
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No question 2 and 3. Never pay for your type!
I can understand why people do it but it is still PTF!!! It is the Airline that is responsible for your TR. I was pissed off when I had to pay for my MCC!!!!!!
Bonding is one thing... Paying for your type is just wrong.
I can understand why people do it but it is still PTF!!! It is the Airline that is responsible for your TR. I was pissed off when I had to pay for my MCC!!!!!!
Bonding is one thing... Paying for your type is just wrong.
Last edited by Puppet Master; 17th Jan 2010 at 00:32. Reason: ahhh puppet the muppet
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1 and 2 are for the sake of things, TRAINING. At no point during your TR are the airlines making any real money out of you. There are no pax behind you, no revenue etc.
Training = it's correct to pay, it's not clear. Everything could fall under the training shadow.
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Being bonded isn't such a big deal or a major problem. I have sympathy with an airline as a business needing to get value for money on what they spend within the business. Of course, by investing an amount of money in the pilot to operate their aircraft, they'd need to see a return. I have no problem with 3/5 year bonds when you're talking about an investment of between £10,000 and £20,000.
I do however agree with Bruce Wayne about having to accept a reduced salary as well. This is unreasonable and is not fair at all.
I do however agree with Bruce Wayne about having to accept a reduced salary as well. This is unreasonable and is not fair at all.
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. SO STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE to all working in airlines involved!!!
Ah,ah,ah, I am sorry I try to don't laugh at you but it's quite hard. So once you paid your T/R to try to get you first job you didn't think about the possibility you were actually giving your help to destroy this business. Now you couldn't move to the left seat for whatever reasons, you ask to make a strike all together. Uhmmmm !!!
Darling, I understand yourself. I am really sorry you couldn't escape your destiny once more like you did before, unfortunately your time came and you have to accept it. Many others has fallen into this modern aviation hell but now the water level got your position and even if you moved to rise up a bit more into the dry area this time you couldn't do nothing to avoid to be wet. 
I am sorry but you have to accept it. Today this is a jungle and there is no mercy, you probably don't deserve to loose your right seat for a person paying T/R+ line training but... This is the actual situation. Anyway, at least if you end in a supermarket you won't pay your training and uniform, be optimistic . May be you will love it !
Last edited by Haran_Banjo; 17th Jan 2010 at 16:57.
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All good comments, but who's listening to them... Nobody I'm guessing. I think the time we have spent on here moaning might better be spent writting letters to our local MP's and trying to raise the issue with people that can do something about it. It's election time so hundreds of Pilots trying to make one point at the same time may have a chance of getting the ear of the right person.
Not sure how they start those petitions but I'm sure somebody on here does
Not sure how they start those petitions but I'm sure somebody on here does
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Bruce,
Sorry when did I ever say 'on a reduced salary' ?????? As others have said being bonded so that a company can make sure you're not going to dash off to something better I think is reasonable, but when the company try and recoup the cost by reducing your salary for the first 3/4 years IS wrong.
I'm on my third jet type... never paid... never will...
Sorry when did I ever say 'on a reduced salary' ?????? As others have said being bonded so that a company can make sure you're not going to dash off to something better I think is reasonable, but when the company try and recoup the cost by reducing your salary for the first 3/4 years IS wrong.
I'm on my third jet type... never paid... never will...