Pay to Fly - Classification
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Vanpilot,
You can post petitions on the number 10 website. Maybe the best option due to the fact we are all over the place and getting signatures on a clipboard may be tricky. Don't know exactly how to go about it but why not start a thread on here to ask, getting suggestions on the wording and highlight/advertise it to fellow PPRuNer's.
You can post petitions on the number 10 website. Maybe the best option due to the fact we are all over the place and getting signatures on a clipboard may be tricky. Don't know exactly how to go about it but why not start a thread on here to ask, getting suggestions on the wording and highlight/advertise it to fellow PPRuNer's.
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Bruce,
When you quote a person and then respond... It is an implication that you are referring to the person whom you are quoting. If this was not your intention then do not use quotes.
When you quote a person and then respond... It is an implication that you are referring to the person whom you are quoting. If this was not your intention then do not use quotes.
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Puppet Master,
you asserted an opinion / position.
I posed a question relating to that assertion; You then responded, asserting that I said something that I did not.
The question at the end of the sentence denotes that it is a question, the use of a quotation denotes that it is a question relating to the quotation.
If you do not want someone to ask a question to clarify your assertion, then don't post.
you asserted an opinion / position.
I posed a question relating to that assertion; You then responded, asserting that I said something that I did not.
The question at the end of the sentence denotes that it is a question, the use of a quotation denotes that it is a question relating to the quotation.
If you do not want someone to ask a question to clarify your assertion, then don't post.
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Petition to No.10 on pay to fly schemes and our industry
Thoughts on the wording of and content of a petition against pay to fly schemes and the general state of our industry.....use of contracts like brookfields and the like. Or anything else you feel maybe of interest. What are the issues with pay to fly schemes and who does it affect? Are people finding there jobs replaced with experienced Pilots from abroad. Are experienced Pilots from the uk being replaced with low hour cheaper Pilots.
Your thoughts on what are the main issues are, that as a proffession we face and that could be acted upon by the goverment.
Fire away
Your thoughts on what are the main issues are, that as a proffession we face and that could be acted upon by the goverment.
Fire away
Last edited by Vanpilot; 17th Jan 2010 at 21:04.
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Let No10 know how much valuable revenue they are losing due to the practice. Even the guys on Brookfield and Parc Contracts are defrauding the tax man as you cannot be self employed and work for just one company.
In a nutshell you have to let them know that they are being taken to the cleaners by UK and Irish Airlines.
In a nutshell you have to let them know that they are being taken to the cleaners by UK and Irish Airlines.
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Better put by A and C
The thing we have to think about is return on investment, if an airline EMPLOYS you and pays for your type rating they should be able to ensure that they get some return on that investment.
A training bond is an acceptable way of ensuring return on investment IF the bond reflects the true cost of the training and the cost diminishes at a monthly rate over say two years.
The problem we have is that pilots are paying up front for ratings and then being taken on as CONTRACTORS, as a contractor under UK tax law you are required to have more than one sorce of income and be able to determin when you do the work. Now what would be the attitude of Easy Jet (lets say) if a contractor said sorry I am working for another airline today? and did not turn up!
It would seem to me that the best way to shut down the pay to fly thing would be to set the UK tax people off in the direction of these contractors, It is likely that if they find the contractors to be Employees then the airline will have to pick up the tax & IN bill!
The thing we have to think about is return on investment, if an airline EMPLOYS you and pays for your type rating they should be able to ensure that they get some return on that investment.
A training bond is an acceptable way of ensuring return on investment IF the bond reflects the true cost of the training and the cost diminishes at a monthly rate over say two years.
The problem we have is that pilots are paying up front for ratings and then being taken on as CONTRACTORS, as a contractor under UK tax law you are required to have more than one sorce of income and be able to determin when you do the work. Now what would be the attitude of Easy Jet (lets say) if a contractor said sorry I am working for another airline today? and did not turn up!
It would seem to me that the best way to shut down the pay to fly thing would be to set the UK tax people off in the direction of these contractors, It is likely that if they find the contractors to be Employees then the airline will have to pick up the tax & IN bill!
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Nice angle
Can someone that is currently on a Brookfields contract tell us how it works and why its not been stopped already? Is it a case of being scared to be the first Pilot to take it on and put your job on the line. Although I guess they would say your a contractor and just not call you to fly again.
So first point is airlines driving down conditions and using schemes/ agencies to avoid Taxes.
Can someone that is currently on a Brookfields contract tell us how it works and why its not been stopped already? Is it a case of being scared to be the first Pilot to take it on and put your job on the line. Although I guess they would say your a contractor and just not call you to fly again.
So first point is airlines driving down conditions and using schemes/ agencies to avoid Taxes.
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Vanpilot
What does Brookfield have to do with pay to fly schemes?
You pay for the type rating(Ryanair). The Brookfield contract comes into play when you WORK for Ryanair and get PAID.
It is a paid contract!
The issue is that you pay a lot of money up front for a Boeing 737 type rating to a training organisation be it SAS or CAE.
But by the time the all the taxes are claimed back you have paid under half the cost of the rating.
Hudson if you are refering to Ryanair in relation to Brookfield? Defrauding 10 Downing street out of any taxes?
Irish airline.
Irish registered aircraft.
Irish company setup with Brookfield.
Irish accountants.
Irish tax system.
What is Alistair or 10 Downing going to say? Perhaps say nothing. A wry smile would say it all.
AS I KEEP SAYING. NOT THE SAME AS PAYING 50K FOR AN AIRBUS RATING AND 500 HOURS AND THEN TOLD TO
OFF.
Heads.
Bricks.
Walls.
You pay for the type rating(Ryanair). The Brookfield contract comes into play when you WORK for Ryanair and get PAID.
It is a paid contract!The issue is that you pay a lot of money up front for a Boeing 737 type rating to a training organisation be it SAS or CAE.
But by the time the all the taxes are claimed back you have paid under half the cost of the rating.
Hudson if you are refering to Ryanair in relation to Brookfield? Defrauding 10 Downing street out of any taxes?
Irish airline.
Irish registered aircraft.
Irish company setup with Brookfield.
Irish accountants.
Irish tax system.
What is Alistair or 10 Downing going to say? Perhaps say nothing. A wry smile would say it all.
AS I KEEP SAYING. NOT THE SAME AS PAYING 50K FOR AN AIRBUS RATING AND 500 HOURS AND THEN TOLD TO
OFF.Heads.
Bricks.
Walls.
Last edited by go around flaps15; 17th Jan 2010 at 22:01.
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Go Around Flaps 15
If you happen to be based at a UK airport, with your centre of life (more than 90 days in 365 spent in UK) here (kids at school etc, or even just a wife/girlfriend) then the UK exchequer will be VERY interested in how and where you are paying tax.
It's only a matter of time.
I hope you've been good.
It's only a matter of time.
I hope you've been good.
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Stansdead
Sorry to torpedo you but the reciprocal agreement with Irish Republic comes into play. Much though I dislike it BRK guys operating within Irish tax laws as a company are a valid entity in UK and HMRC will not go after them. I wish they would but it has been sown up. For now. Just wait.
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Jesus, having to mini-moderate my own thread. Sent a PM to Vanpilot asking to open his requests/suggestions up on a new thread as not to dilute this one and keep it on topic.
Therefore, back to Classification of Pay to Fly ..... feel free to continue this theme and stop it going off frequently on tangents.
Therefore, back to Classification of Pay to Fly ..... feel free to continue this theme and stop it going off frequently on tangents.
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Doesn't the classification of PTF or not rather depend on the prevailing conditions in the industry at the time?
For example - I don't know if there was ever a time where employers would pay for ALL of your commercial training, but if there was - then to those who had paid nothing for their CPL, anyone who paid for that "basic" commercial training would be paying to fly.
Likewise even fifteen years ago, PTF would definitely have constituted paying for your own TR, whereas now I would argue that any newly qualified pilot should expect to pay - one way or another, be it reduced salary or cash up front- for their first rating.
Therefore in years to come given current trajectory, will the first 65/100/150 line hours become the accepted norm as first TR has now?
IMHO, 1 is expected, 2 is unfortunate but almost certain so 3 is the only one with any choice in it now. However if the airlines are savvy enough and actually attach a proper job at the end of line training then even that would be arguable. Unfortunately the two ongoing easyJet threads show that it's not affecting enough senior people just yet to force a stand to be taken, so in all likelihood should we not prepare ourselves for (3) being the norm?
For example - I don't know if there was ever a time where employers would pay for ALL of your commercial training, but if there was - then to those who had paid nothing for their CPL, anyone who paid for that "basic" commercial training would be paying to fly.
Likewise even fifteen years ago, PTF would definitely have constituted paying for your own TR, whereas now I would argue that any newly qualified pilot should expect to pay - one way or another, be it reduced salary or cash up front- for their first rating.
Therefore in years to come given current trajectory, will the first 65/100/150 line hours become the accepted norm as first TR has now?
IMHO, 1 is expected, 2 is unfortunate but almost certain so 3 is the only one with any choice in it now. However if the airlines are savvy enough and actually attach a proper job at the end of line training then even that would be arguable. Unfortunately the two ongoing easyJet threads show that it's not affecting enough senior people just yet to force a stand to be taken, so in all likelihood should we not prepare ourselves for (3) being the norm?
Last edited by clanger32; 18th Jan 2010 at 11:39. Reason: Stupid iPhone autocorrections making me look more dyslexic than normal
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Dreamshiner/Mods
Can you have a dedicated section on PPRuNe for the PTF? It would appear that multiple posts by the same people keep creeping into every thread in an attempt to raise this topic to a higher status than appropriate, it's even creeping into the Tech Log section in disguise! The forum is rapidly becoming a portal the experienced guys will discard and the genuine enquiries and help topics will not be available to the members if this continues.
What often starts as an interesting debate seems to get sucked into the black hole of bitterness occupied by the few.
Can you have a dedicated section on PPRuNe for the PTF? It would appear that multiple posts by the same people keep creeping into every thread in an attempt to raise this topic to a higher status than appropriate, it's even creeping into the Tech Log section in disguise! The forum is rapidly becoming a portal the experienced guys will discard and the genuine enquiries and help topics will not be available to the members if this continues.
What often starts as an interesting debate seems to get sucked into the black hole of bitterness occupied by the few.
