Long Haul Captain direct from Long Haul First Officer.

[robertbuenos]

Air France has introduced a new rule.
To become a Long haul Captain, it is mandatory to spend 4/5 years as a Short Haul Captain (Long Haul First Officer can't directly become Long Haul Captain as they used to).

I'd like to know if it's the same in other airlines.

[G_Orwell]

In many airlines that is the case. The "norm" career path is, short haul FO, long haul FO, short haul CPT, long haul CPT.

[seat 0A]

Hardly a new rule. It has been agreed by AFALPA more then 4 years ago. It will be effected by 2010, I believe.
In my company it isn`t a rule (yet), but I believe it is a very wise career path to take.
Ofcourse there are companies where this isn`t possible, but if you have the chance to build experience as a captain in short haul, you`d be a fool not to take it.

[wobble2plank]

It is not a hard and fast rule but in most companies the wait for 'right to left' on a LH Jet can be a long one. Hence many pilots, especially those who joined the airline with no previous command experience, go from right to left into SH and then bid back to RHS LH at every opportunity. There is no requirement to do so though.

Obviously you can only have such a rule if your airline offers the ability to do so. Virgin, for example, could have a few snags with such a ruling!

[robertbuenos]

In Air France too the "norm" career path is, roughly, 4 years short haul FO, 4 years long haul FO, 10 years short haul CPT before becoming long haul CPT.

However, before the new rule, if you were not interested in short haul, you could take patience for 10 more years as FO and become long haul CPT without have been short haul CPT.

I wonder if it's the same in other airlines? I presume it is possible, especially in long haul oriented airlines...

Seat 0A

In my company it isn`t a rule (yet)

Could you tell me what is your compagny?

[The Snake]

Based on his/her profile, (elev -11ft), probably a blue company. With white dominance

[Rainboe]

There is a good reason. Long haul copilots become senior, getting trips with the best pay, Ultra long haul flights with multi-crew, so very, very little handling practice. Skills do get degraded. A move to shorthaul flying before a command course is very beneficial. I did it with move to turboprops- 6 flights a day was excellent for dusting off speed skills, even so I found a first command on 737 a challenge to begin with.

The way seniority works out, it seems to be a common progression that naturally falls into place. Our airline had many command course failures of pilots who were having to convert to a new type and upgrade their skills and speed of operation simultaneously. The trouble is, when life is just perfect, earning the best pay, going to the best places, on the best aeroplane, it is very difficult to voluntarily give it all up for a few years flogging around Europe in crap weather. But essential.

One of the drawbacks of staying longhaul for too long was possibly demonstrated in a United engine failure at SFO flown by a copilot with degraded handling skills- I recall he handled the OEI with aileron alone.

[GlueBall]

engine failure at SFO flown by a copilot with degraded handling skills- I recall he handled the OEI with aileron alone.

It was originally mentioned that the B744 copilot at controls was a she.

[Rainboe]

I didn't know that. But it begs a question, what on earth was this person doing at the controls of a 747?

[Viking101]

Or you just continue to get schafted as an FO.

Fast Track Command, Temporary contracts, Contractors, Promises...

Then you hear "Unfortunatly..." , "We regret to inform you...." , "We never really promised....", "No I never said that....", "Who said that???", "Times has changed...." , "The economical situation...." bla bla bla bla bla bla

Just pick and choose.

[JW411]

Well, basically it is a load of bolleaux.

If you have been in the right seat of a 747 (or similar) for xx years, then the obvious move is to the left seat of the 747 (or similar) for you are well up to date with the job in hand and are not likely to cost the company very much money.

Why would you want to go back to puddle-jumpers for xx years just so that the company seniority/union plan says so?

I left the RAF (Transport Command) in 1978 and joined Fred Laker as an F/O on the DC-10.

One year later I moved straight across the cockpit (I could have gone on the BAC-111, B707 or A300) but I stayed on the DC-10 and have never regreted it.

Every time an airline finds it difficult to keep the troops happy, they will undoubtedly find a new "seven labours of Hercules" to stabilise an unsustainable situation.

You are either capable of being a long haul commander or you are quite simply not.

In either event, you should at least be allowed to bid for the job.

[Rainboe]

You can bid for what you like! What you get will be dictated by the seniority system. If you insist on remaining on the top fleet, expect to wait, and possibly having a tough time on the command course. You can move off on to less popular fleets and have an earlier command. You can move off earlier and get well practised so a simple move to the left seat is simple.

I believe a regualr change is good for you. i always felt after about 6 years on a plane, you got technically stale. A transfer was always very good, a mental 'kick up the backside'. The trouble was, you didn't know what you had forgotten. The best guys technically were the ones fresh on the fleet. After years of getting fat, dumb and happy flying the best routes on the best aeroplanes and struggling to do 1 landing in 28 days, trying to move seat, type and route structure altogether was, for several I knew, a step too far.

[JW411]

Well what I got was exactly in accordance with the seniority system. To be considered for a DC-10 command I had to have 7,500 hours P1 on large multi- engined aircraft and that I already had in Spades. Needless to say, an ATPL was also required (I did my ATPL/IR at CSE at considerable personal expense four years before I left the RAF).

Mind you, I had already been an RAF Short Belfast captain on a global basis before I joined Laker. You might not realise it but the Belfast had the same triplex autoland system that the BEA Tridents had so the DC-10 duplex systems were very easy to understand.

I can well remember coming out of the RAF in 1978 and having an interview with Britannia.

"We are very worried about your long haul background".

"Why" said I.

"We do multi sectors every day with Boeing 737s and with a 2-man crew". "You are used to operating with a 5-man crew so how do you think you will be able to cope?"

I gave said person my current logbook which showed 38 take-offs and landings in a BN Islander during one day of the Rhine Army parachute competitions in 1978 and asked him, as single crew , would that qualify me for his 4-sector hectic day?

Two days later, Britannia sent me a contract but I had already decided that I didn't want to work there and went to Fred instead.

[Barden]

Two days later, Britannia sent me a contract but I had already decided that I didn't want to work there and went to Fred instead.

Explains a lot.

[Captain Airclues]

I did nearly forty years of four-engine long haul flying. I moved RHS to LHS on a 747 after 20 years in the RHS. It's not for me to comment on the wisdom of this, but all I can say is that I didn't bend anything.

Dave

[Rainboe]

Yes, and you did very well Cap'n (well....we told you that anyway!) But it's possible your command could have come earlier at say 17 years or so on a (through clenched teeth for a LH pilot) 737! God forbid! Then you could have finely honed your handling skills. I always felt sorry for the dedicated LH-only colleagues. I found it a nice change with expanded horizons to get some SH. Indeed, with age, I find that looonng sectors now take up an appreciable proportion of my remaining life and I get panic 'escape' urges after 12 hours sitting there watching an AI. The only trouble is now I end up back at the starting place after 12 hours with no 5* hotel waiting for me!

[Herod]

You don't go home, then, Rainboe? Surely that IS the 5* hotel. Beats night stops any day.

[Captain Airclues]

Not so Rainboe. I bid for all commands (except the Budgie) and the 747 came up first. The reason that I can't comment is that I have only experienced long haul, so I don't know how different my handling skills would have been if I'd done some time in short haul. All I know is that they were adequate.
There are advantages for the airline in doing a seat change on type as there is no downtime for the type technical course. I got back from my last RHS trip a few days before starting the sim in the LHS. Some airlines, such as Virgin, only fly long haul, and I haven't heard of them having any problems with handling on command courses. Perhaps a Virgin pilot could confirm or correct this.
I assume that Air France must have had some problems for them to go down this route.

Dave

[Iver]

Air France question for robertbuenos or anyone else in the know:

1. Do Air France limit the number of aircraft types you can bid in your career like some other Euro airlines (i.e., Lufthansa)? I hear that at LH you can only bid a few types (can't jump from A330/340 to MD11 and then 744) - I presume to reduce total training costs.

In the States you can bid aircraft types whenever your seat lock is up. I met a mate at Delta who has flown 6 types of aircraft as an FO...

[parabellum]

One of the benefits of going from RHS long haul to LHS short haul is that you now have to do 'the captain thing', all the decisions, flight management etc. about four times a day, so in very short order both your management skills and you handling skills are up to speed, add to that you will now be operating within the range of a short haul operation so if based in Europe you can forget about hurricanes, typhoons and Monsoons for a while, not that a European winter can't be very taxing too.

I believe Swiss Air used to require F/O DC9, then DC10 then B747 before first command on the DC9 and so back up the ladder.