BA to lose another 100 pilots
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Mycenae
Nothing like a little invective eh? For starters no-one is being made redundant at BA, the 78 have accepted voluntary redundancy as part of a negotiated productivity improvement package. Secondly, BA has merely filed the required notice to consult over the possibility of redundancy, the exact number of pilots in surplus has yet to be decided. More importantly, both the company and the BA CC believe that the surplus can be managed using methods other than redundancy. But why let the truth get in the way of a good headline 
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From: The Winchester
Dress it up in whatever language you want, it's not great news, hence Overstress's "eeek" ( now edited out
).
The Company are in the process of releasing 78 pilots as part of a VR package ( AFAIK funded by the remaining pilots by productivity changes) and are looking for a possible reduction of another 100 pilots/MPE/or want the equivalent in cost savings.
).The Company are in the process of releasing 78 pilots as part of a VR package ( AFAIK funded by the remaining pilots by productivity changes) and are looking for a possible reduction of another 100 pilots/MPE/or want the equivalent in cost savings.
Last edited by wiggy; 7th August 2009 at 08:53.
Thread Starter
PPRuNe Person
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: see roster
Invective, "insulting, abusive, highly critical language"
Sorry, SiD, don't see that. I just see BA starting the process to lose another 100 pilot jobs and your comments cannot detract from that.
Sorry, SiD, don't see that. I just see BA starting the process to lose another 100 pilot jobs and your comments cannot detract from that.
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Mycenae
Overstress - Perhaps invective was too strong, my comments were aimed at presenting a more balanced view of what has been announced. Your topic title, "BA to loose another 100 pilots", is not currently the case and could be seen as being rather alarming. 
Reading between various lines it is clear that BA expect that the surplus will be a temporary one and compulsory redundancy is to be avoided as far as possible. 
Hopefully this time around any measures taken to reduce the surplus will be temporary 
Wiggy - not sure how I dressed up the announcement, you seem to have got the same gist as me in fewer words
Anyhoo I think we can all agree that it's a difficult time to be working for BA
Reading between various lines it is clear that BA expect that the surplus will be a temporary one and compulsory redundancy is to be avoided as far as possible. Hopefully this time around any measures taken to reduce the surplus will be temporary Wiggy - not sure how I dressed up the announcement, you seem to have got the same gist as me in fewer words
Anyhoo I think we can all agree that it's a difficult time to be working for BA
Last edited by StudentInDebt; 6th August 2009 at 21:40.
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From: Nova
rather alarming.
compulsory redundancy is to be avoided as far as possible.
Hopefully this time around any measures taken to reduce the surplus will be temporary
no-one is being made redundant at BA
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: BHX-MAN-EMA
Why not get rid of another 100 or so middle managers.
BA are top heavy with managers.
If it has to be pilots then forget seniority and retire the over 55's who have their final salary pensions. (If BA can afford to pay the pensions)
The future of BA lies in the younger more dynamic pilots, but BALPA will never agree my course of action.
Terminal 5 "Ryanair - Globespan - Jet2" Long haul.
Unless BA can change significantly, in its working / union practices it may well go the way of Swissair and Sabena.
In the current climate (Economic) I cannot see the government affording to bail them out like Alitalia.
After all most of the family assets have been sold or are in hock.
Selling Heathrow slots may be their only way to survive.
BA are top heavy with managers.
If it has to be pilots then forget seniority and retire the over 55's who have their final salary pensions. (If BA can afford to pay the pensions)
The future of BA lies in the younger more dynamic pilots, but BALPA will never agree my course of action.
Terminal 5 "Ryanair - Globespan - Jet2" Long haul.
Unless BA can change significantly, in its working / union practices it may well go the way of Swissair and Sabena.
In the current climate (Economic) I cannot see the government affording to bail them out like Alitalia.
After all most of the family assets have been sold or are in hock.
Selling Heathrow slots may be their only way to survive.
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From: Outbound
''The future of BA lies in the younger more dynamic pilots,'' yea for definite especially if they use Flexi Crew.
''Unless BA can change significantly, in its working / union practices it may well go the way of Swissair and Sabena.''
Get some facts then compare apples with apples please. Like most things on the continent work rhetoric comes second.
''Terminal 5 "Ryanair - Globespan - Jet2" Long haul. ''An incomprehensible reply or incompetent retort?
What BA needs is someone that isn't trying to exploit the so called crises for a fatter bonus and diluting the product in the process. Unfortunately a lot of people buy into the garbage that spews out of waterworld. Thats why the share rising was done at a premium rather than at a discount, because the airline has no future.
''Unless BA can change significantly, in its working / union practices it may well go the way of Swissair and Sabena.''
Get some facts then compare apples with apples please. Like most things on the continent work rhetoric comes second.
''Terminal 5 "Ryanair - Globespan - Jet2" Long haul. ''An incomprehensible reply or incompetent retort?
What BA needs is someone that isn't trying to exploit the so called crises for a fatter bonus and diluting the product in the process. Unfortunately a lot of people buy into the garbage that spews out of waterworld. Thats why the share rising was done at a premium rather than at a discount, because the airline has no future.
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From: BHX-MAN-EMA
Like in Banking the bonus culture will get you every time.
Get paid for what you do at a rate commensurate with your experience in the field.
But lets not get to the level of footballers.
BA is still concentrating upon its High Rollers, who may come back when business improves, however the bread and butter is in the VFR/Tourist markets.
Improving the service received there, with an small increase in fares would put the numbers up and get cost covered.
An overall appraisal of the renumeration and working practices for all employees, would save money, through closing the bid line system, and balancing the flight allowance system. (Probably over BALPA and BASSA's dead bodies)
In an ideal world listening to the employee's who know what the traveling public want, with a sharp reduction in middle managers would solve the problem.
However BA is so entrenched in practices agreed years ago and in todays world un-representative that even the simplest of tasks take a very long time to be implemented.
BA has lost the plot !! why should 100 pilots be made the scapegoat for managerial bad decisions.
This Legacy carrier is living in the past, to survive they just need to make more efficient use of the resources that they have, and revise working practices.
We may yet see BA go they way of the Dodo, and maybe phoenix like arise as "British"
(Tongue in cheek)
Get paid for what you do at a rate commensurate with your experience in the field.
But lets not get to the level of footballers.
BA is still concentrating upon its High Rollers, who may come back when business improves, however the bread and butter is in the VFR/Tourist markets.
Improving the service received there, with an small increase in fares would put the numbers up and get cost covered.
An overall appraisal of the renumeration and working practices for all employees, would save money, through closing the bid line system, and balancing the flight allowance system. (Probably over BALPA and BASSA's dead bodies)
In an ideal world listening to the employee's who know what the traveling public want, with a sharp reduction in middle managers would solve the problem.
However BA is so entrenched in practices agreed years ago and in todays world un-representative that even the simplest of tasks take a very long time to be implemented.
BA has lost the plot !! why should 100 pilots be made the scapegoat for managerial bad decisions.
This Legacy carrier is living in the past, to survive they just need to make more efficient use of the resources that they have, and revise working practices.
We may yet see BA go they way of the Dodo, and maybe phoenix like arise as "British"
(Tongue in cheek)
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From: One hump; two if you're pretty.
Good apples, bad apples and the putrid apples of BASSA.
So its facts you want, Sir Donald?
How about these, these and these?
Day Dreamer is spot on. Of particular note is the fact that the imminent BASSA strike will cost the company £25 million per day! No wonder our Willie went for the rights issue.
Of particular interest should be the comment from SQ.....
So either SQ are right and WW has sold the farm just before the bumper crop starts to rise, or BA are right and SQ are screwed. Which do we think the more likely?
Discuss.
How about these, these and these?
Day Dreamer is spot on. Of particular note is the fact that the imminent BASSA strike will cost the company £25 million per day! No wonder our Willie went for the rights issue.
Of particular interest should be the comment from SQ.....
British Airways has announced it won't configure any new planes to offer first-class cabins. Qantas has also scrapped first-class service on several long-haul routes and is considering reducing the 72 business seats in its Airbus A380 superjumbo jets.
But Singapore Airlines, one of Asia's top carriers, remains confident of a recovery in the premium market. It has cut fares and capacity this year but said it would not crop the 60 business seats in its A380 planes.
"It's a cyclical business and positive growth will return. We are not going to fundamentally change our business focus overnight just because of the downturn," said spokesman Nicholas Ionides.
But Singapore Airlines, one of Asia's top carriers, remains confident of a recovery in the premium market. It has cut fares and capacity this year but said it would not crop the 60 business seats in its A380 planes.
"It's a cyclical business and positive growth will return. We are not going to fundamentally change our business focus overnight just because of the downturn," said spokesman Nicholas Ionides.
Discuss.
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From: The Winchester
Day Dreamer
You say:
"An overall appraisal of the renumeration and working practices for all employees, would save money, through closing the bid line system,"
Q: How would "closing" bid line (sic) save money?
and then state.." and balancing the flight allowance system. (Probably over BALPA and BASSA's dead bodies)"
The pilots' allowance system is already a completely different system ( calculated with respect to time away from base) to the one used by the cabin crew ( Destination specific), so please explain what you mean by "balancing" and why do you feel both BALPA and BASSA would object to your "balancing".
"An overall appraisal of the renumeration and working practices for all employees, would save money, through closing the bid line system,"
Q: How would "closing" bid line (sic) save money?
and then state.." and balancing the flight allowance system. (Probably over BALPA and BASSA's dead bodies)"
The pilots' allowance system is already a completely different system ( calculated with respect to time away from base) to the one used by the cabin crew ( Destination specific), so please explain what you mean by "balancing" and why do you feel both BALPA and BASSA would object to your "balancing".
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From: Asia
So either SQ are right and WW has sold the farm just before the bumper crop starts to rise, or BA are right and SQ are screwed. Which do we think the more likely?
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From: One hump; two if you're pretty.
Perhaps at the moment it doesn't, but the problem with BA first is that the product stinks. Thin, nasty seats, ancient in-flight entertainment, tiny screens. If BA were serious about retaining their spot at the top of the tree, they should invest some serious thought into improving First Class. Look to Etihad, Emirates of Singapore for clues. As it is, BA first is last...by a LONG way.
People already have too many reasons to go to Paris, Frankfurt and Madrid to commence their longhaul flights. Surely tempting them back into the pointy end should be the name of the game?
Refer qwertyuiop for consequences of failure.
Leo.
People already have too many reasons to go to Paris, Frankfurt and Madrid to commence their longhaul flights. Surely tempting them back into the pointy end should be the name of the game?
Refer qwertyuiop for consequences of failure.
Leo.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
As it is, BA first is last...by a LONG way.
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From: Cyprus
LHC and Day Dreamer will not be happy until we are all in the same cess pit as them.
I believe all airlines will be in the same cess pit unless they cut costs and offer inovation in their product. Willie Walsh has been saying for some time that he is not confident that premium traffic will return to former levels. This is born out by the current historic data, and other travel trade indicators, People will still travel but only on their cost terms, not the airlines, however that does not mean that costs are cut to such a level that travel becomes uncomfortable or inconvienient, eg Ryanair.
I believe all airlines will be in the same cess pit unless they cut costs and offer inovation in their product. Willie Walsh has been saying for some time that he is not confident that premium traffic will return to former levels. This is born out by the current historic data, and other travel trade indicators, People will still travel but only on their cost terms, not the airlines, however that does not mean that costs are cut to such a level that travel becomes uncomfortable or inconvienient, eg Ryanair.
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From: france
I believe BA is playing a dangerous game at letting 178 pilots go(more ?). I think it's offbeat now as the economy seems to be picking up again. Summer 2010 should be nice again and 2011 will be hot. Considering the length of training cycles for pilots, future growth needs to be tackled today.
Air France is walking around that pitfall by taking advantage of the legal possibility left of making employees "partially redundant" which implies you're only part-time. This allows the airline to reduce costs while keeping its pilots in the nest and up and ready for the restart. Nothing would be worse than having to go through unsustainable training again when things kick-in again as not being able to cope with a rising program makes you miss the train and keeps you stuck in the mud while the troop is rushing in tailwind growth.
If I were BA management, I wouldn't...But, hey, they surely know better after all.
Air France is walking around that pitfall by taking advantage of the legal possibility left of making employees "partially redundant" which implies you're only part-time. This allows the airline to reduce costs while keeping its pilots in the nest and up and ready for the restart. Nothing would be worse than having to go through unsustainable training again when things kick-in again as not being able to cope with a rising program makes you miss the train and keeps you stuck in the mud while the troop is rushing in tailwind growth.
If I were BA management, I wouldn't...But, hey, they surely know better after all.