The Job Front - Note to the Unions, Chief Pilots, Agencies and Fellow Pilots
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Fade to Grey,
Are you sure? I'm sure there are a serious number of experienced, type rated ex XL pilots who would love a job at Ryanair but are they taking them? Nope. They are exploiting people like Dreamshiner and taking more of their money to fill their gaps.
Dreamshiner, just out of interest, what type rating did you go for?
Cheers,
SC
Are you sure? I'm sure there are a serious number of experienced, type rated ex XL pilots who would love a job at Ryanair but are they taking them? Nope. They are exploiting people like Dreamshiner and taking more of their money to fill their gaps.
Dreamshiner, just out of interest, what type rating did you go for?
Cheers,
SC
If we look back 30-40 years, at that time the aviation industry was a lot more compact. In the UK ( & Europe too) most professional pilots were recruited and trained by airlines or the military. People could not be exploited so much back then as the vast majority were not spending their own money. Nowadays the system is different, we have a 3 tier "selection process" and it goes thus;
1. Someone decides to become a professional pilot, they need the funds (or access to a line of credit) to undergo the training. If this is not available then its no go straight away
2. The individual then has to pass all the exams, flight tests etc required to get a frozen ATPL. Some discover at various stages of this process that they don't have the aptitude to do it. They end up wasting a lot of time, effort and money for nothing. A harsh experience but it happens a lot i think.
3. Having got their nice blue book, and more often that not these days a TR, they next need a flying job. The aviation authorities only issues licenses, not jobs. The individual needs the right psychological and social attributes to impress the employer who can then provide the final key to the flightdeck. Some people have difficulties at this stage as well, dozens of applications/interviews, some never get a job. In fact this "margin" is virtually guaranteed as the training end of the industry churns out more new license holders than there are jobs available. They know this, nice people huh? The training business and airlines like RYR seem to have developed a somewhat mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship.
Is the system now better/worse than 30 years ago? Neither. Personally if we had the old system still in place today i would never have had the opportunity to become a commercial pilot and there were a lot of people in the past who would have made very good flightcrew, except their ambitions were shattered at the word go by some airline or military selector not liking the colour of their tie at interview or suchlike. However, the system as it stands now has become something of a lottery, not all the ticket holders will be winners and the tickets themselves are very expensive! Unfortunately those that lose out, lose out big time. We all live in our own times and unfortunately no system can be fair to everyone at that time.
Dreamshiner, you live in the here and now. Try not looking at the bigger picture too much because in these circumstances its not doing you any good. I agree in principle with a lot of what you say but little if anything could be changed even if there was a "political" will to do it.
1. Someone decides to become a professional pilot, they need the funds (or access to a line of credit) to undergo the training. If this is not available then its no go straight away
2. The individual then has to pass all the exams, flight tests etc required to get a frozen ATPL. Some discover at various stages of this process that they don't have the aptitude to do it. They end up wasting a lot of time, effort and money for nothing. A harsh experience but it happens a lot i think.
3. Having got their nice blue book, and more often that not these days a TR, they next need a flying job. The aviation authorities only issues licenses, not jobs. The individual needs the right psychological and social attributes to impress the employer who can then provide the final key to the flightdeck. Some people have difficulties at this stage as well, dozens of applications/interviews, some never get a job. In fact this "margin" is virtually guaranteed as the training end of the industry churns out more new license holders than there are jobs available. They know this, nice people huh? The training business and airlines like RYR seem to have developed a somewhat mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship.
Is the system now better/worse than 30 years ago? Neither. Personally if we had the old system still in place today i would never have had the opportunity to become a commercial pilot and there were a lot of people in the past who would have made very good flightcrew, except their ambitions were shattered at the word go by some airline or military selector not liking the colour of their tie at interview or suchlike. However, the system as it stands now has become something of a lottery, not all the ticket holders will be winners and the tickets themselves are very expensive! Unfortunately those that lose out, lose out big time. We all live in our own times and unfortunately no system can be fair to everyone at that time.
Dreamshiner, you live in the here and now. Try not looking at the bigger picture too much because in these circumstances its not doing you any good. I agree in principle with a lot of what you say but little if anything could be changed even if there was a "political" will to do it.
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Well,
I too am in a similar situation to Dreamshiner, although without anything like as many hours or the self funded TR. However, without wishing to sound like I - or anyone else in my [our] situation - thinks anyone owes us anything, the plight of anyone seeking to enter this industry is something that for obvious reasons is high on my agenda.
I agree with a lot of the sentiment dreamshiner has mentioned, although perhaps not the way it's been put.
Personally I think BALPA are missing a trick - although I have made this point before and been shot down for it. I really believe BALPA should actually be for the good of all airline pilots - but those serving, those in the training mill AND those who aspire to this career - in this country - not just the fortunate group who happen to have been able to make the jump to employment at XYZ airlines.
This attitude [and, by the way, here I consider to be the general feel of the industry, rather than that of any individual or organisation] of protect those who have the jobs and screw the rest is what's led to this impasse - to Dreamshiner buying a speculative TR, to O'Leary being able to charge €33000 for a TR.
There's been a lot of mention of self selection for pilot training on this thread...and certainly in my view the introduction of minimum criteria (even "5 GCSEs/O levels to C or above, including Maths and English" would be a great start - doesn't need to be draconian) would help things. But the million dollar question is who is going to push for these things and in my opinion, that needs to be a body fighting for "the industry" - BALPA would seem at first [and admittedly non particularly thought through] glance to be the obvious choice.
But it's also totally understandable why those who are in employment don't want to put their heads above the parapet and fight for anyone else - this industry is totally set up to screw over anyone who "makes a nuisance of themselves".....take Dreamshiners point of the difficulties of UK pilots securing work in EU airlines...who quite legitimately choose to stipulate fluency in local language.
Now the nature of the job demands all candidates to any airline are capable of speaking ICAO level 4 English, so one could equally well argue that asking for a second language is superfluous in this industry and therefore an unfair bar to entry (or restriction on free trade through the EU)....but the only way one could circumvent this problem would be to challenge through the legal system. And let's face it - anyone who put their name to such a challenge would be instantly considered a "bad egg".
Interesting points - and ones that in my opinion need addressing for the good of the industry, not just those in my and dreamshiners shoes...
I too am in a similar situation to Dreamshiner, although without anything like as many hours or the self funded TR. However, without wishing to sound like I - or anyone else in my [our] situation - thinks anyone owes us anything, the plight of anyone seeking to enter this industry is something that for obvious reasons is high on my agenda.
I agree with a lot of the sentiment dreamshiner has mentioned, although perhaps not the way it's been put.
Personally I think BALPA are missing a trick - although I have made this point before and been shot down for it. I really believe BALPA should actually be for the good of all airline pilots - but those serving, those in the training mill AND those who aspire to this career - in this country - not just the fortunate group who happen to have been able to make the jump to employment at XYZ airlines.
This attitude [and, by the way, here I consider to be the general feel of the industry, rather than that of any individual or organisation] of protect those who have the jobs and screw the rest is what's led to this impasse - to Dreamshiner buying a speculative TR, to O'Leary being able to charge €33000 for a TR.
There's been a lot of mention of self selection for pilot training on this thread...and certainly in my view the introduction of minimum criteria (even "5 GCSEs/O levels to C or above, including Maths and English" would be a great start - doesn't need to be draconian) would help things. But the million dollar question is who is going to push for these things and in my opinion, that needs to be a body fighting for "the industry" - BALPA would seem at first [and admittedly non particularly thought through] glance to be the obvious choice.
But it's also totally understandable why those who are in employment don't want to put their heads above the parapet and fight for anyone else - this industry is totally set up to screw over anyone who "makes a nuisance of themselves".....take Dreamshiners point of the difficulties of UK pilots securing work in EU airlines...who quite legitimately choose to stipulate fluency in local language.
Now the nature of the job demands all candidates to any airline are capable of speaking ICAO level 4 English, so one could equally well argue that asking for a second language is superfluous in this industry and therefore an unfair bar to entry (or restriction on free trade through the EU)....but the only way one could circumvent this problem would be to challenge through the legal system. And let's face it - anyone who put their name to such a challenge would be instantly considered a "bad egg".
Interesting points - and ones that in my opinion need addressing for the good of the industry, not just those in my and dreamshiners shoes...
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Well,
This attitude [and, by the way, here I consider to be the general feel of the industry, rather than that of any individual or organisation] of protect those who have the jobs and screw the rest is what's led to this impasse - to Dreamshiner buying a speculative TR, to O'Leary being able to charge €33000 for a TR.
This attitude [and, by the way, here I consider to be the general feel of the industry, rather than that of any individual or organisation] of protect those who have the jobs and screw the rest is what's led to this impasse - to Dreamshiner buying a speculative TR, to O'Leary being able to charge €33000 for a TR.
Unfortunately you only have your peers to blame for this. Just as an example and it will never work, I know that. But if every pilot (and I mean every single one of them) wishing to work for Ryanair refused to pay for a typerating then in the end Ryanair will not have a choice but to provide a typerating free of charge, otherwise part of its fleet would be grounded.
However there will always be pilots who are willing to pay for the t/r and as such this would undermine the united front of the others. (in the case above)
What do you think that BALPA could do about this? If BALPA would get 90% of the newbies to stand up against paying for a t/r what do you think the other 10% would do? They would be in there and happily pay for their t/r and walk away with the job.
As a result the T's & C's of established pilots are under pressure as more and more airlines are trying to cut cost. (Have a look at the pay to fly scheme)
Think about it. Unfortunately it is something which will never happen. You will never get everybody on the same line and as such the newbies are making life difficult for themselves.
CEJM
P.S. Not in any way wishing to change this thread in a discussion about buying a type rating.
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CEJM,
Don't necessarily disagree with you, but - in the same vein as your comments about "it would never happen"...what would happen if every TRI, TRE at Ryanair said "we won't train people who have paid for a TR...it should be paid by the company"
The fact (or more precisely, the facts as I see them) is that it's not any ONE organisation or person who is responsible for the malaise affecting the industry...it's the culmination of instructors being prepared to train pay to train students. It's the culmination of students being willing TO pay [although there's a separate discussion about why they do so and the fact they feel they have to with such a big outlay]. It's about the pilot body as a whole not pressuring the CAA to only stop TR courses on pay to fly schemes. Changing one facet won't help anything, but if all involved bodies stood AS AN INDUSTRY then it might just help. The problem is that a lot of current pilots think it's purely the newbies fault, a lot of newbies think it's the current pilots fault and the bodies that are supposed to represent us (BALPA? - fully accept however they may not be the right body) do nothing to represent the "sanity" of the industry as a whole....only individual fights for particular companies...
Don't necessarily disagree with you, but - in the same vein as your comments about "it would never happen"...what would happen if every TRI, TRE at Ryanair said "we won't train people who have paid for a TR...it should be paid by the company"
The fact (or more precisely, the facts as I see them) is that it's not any ONE organisation or person who is responsible for the malaise affecting the industry...it's the culmination of instructors being prepared to train pay to train students. It's the culmination of students being willing TO pay [although there's a separate discussion about why they do so and the fact they feel they have to with such a big outlay]. It's about the pilot body as a whole not pressuring the CAA to only stop TR courses on pay to fly schemes. Changing one facet won't help anything, but if all involved bodies stood AS AN INDUSTRY then it might just help. The problem is that a lot of current pilots think it's purely the newbies fault, a lot of newbies think it's the current pilots fault and the bodies that are supposed to represent us (BALPA? - fully accept however they may not be the right body) do nothing to represent the "sanity" of the industry as a whole....only individual fights for particular companies...
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clanger32,
I understand what you are trying to say but to be honest i would not hold my breath over it.
Problem with TRI/TRE not willing to train 'pay for a t/r pilots' is that they refuse their duty. Which could result in losing their job.
Established pilots pressurising the CAA. In which way do you think that we could do that? A letter and a protest would most likely not help, what do you suggest? If we strike over it then we damage our company's and it would also be an illegal strike, again this might result in being laid-off.
If you look at it then you will agree with me that there isn't a lot that can be done about it without causing damage to our employers or without the risk of losing our jobs.
However the biggest problem is that you will NEVER see all the involved bodies stand as an industry. There will be always pilots who will take advantage of this.
Take your first example. If all TRE/TRI in Ryanair refused to train those people then they might get sacked. However this would result in the company grinding to a halt, initially. It only takes a little time to find TRE/TRI who are willing to train these people as long as they get a job.
Unfortunately it is, and has been, a real problem to get every pilot to agree on one thing.
If you get all the newbies to unite and collectively refuse to pay for the type rating then this practice would grind to a halt very quickly. However I don't have to tell you that getting everybody united is an impossible task.
CEJM
I understand what you are trying to say but to be honest i would not hold my breath over it.
Problem with TRI/TRE not willing to train 'pay for a t/r pilots' is that they refuse their duty. Which could result in losing their job.
Established pilots pressurising the CAA. In which way do you think that we could do that? A letter and a protest would most likely not help, what do you suggest? If we strike over it then we damage our company's and it would also be an illegal strike, again this might result in being laid-off.
If you look at it then you will agree with me that there isn't a lot that can be done about it without causing damage to our employers or without the risk of losing our jobs.
However the biggest problem is that you will NEVER see all the involved bodies stand as an industry. There will be always pilots who will take advantage of this.
Take your first example. If all TRE/TRI in Ryanair refused to train those people then they might get sacked. However this would result in the company grinding to a halt, initially. It only takes a little time to find TRE/TRI who are willing to train these people as long as they get a job.
Unfortunately it is, and has been, a real problem to get every pilot to agree on one thing.
If you get all the newbies to unite and collectively refuse to pay for the type rating then this practice would grind to a halt very quickly. However I don't have to tell you that getting everybody united is an impossible task.
CEJM
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I don't really know what you see as BALPA's mission other than representing its members. Members who may or may not be British but whom, in most cases work for a company where the official pilot representing force is... BALPA (elected by British and non British nationals).
If you think it is about representing Britishness, then you are wrong. It is about the workforce trying to get its message to its employer so they can preserve a certain level of safety and fairplay towards its employees. Alternatively it will help furture employees to reach their goal, which in turn, will be the opportunity to work for a decent salary in a decent work environment.
No more, no less.
If you think it is about representing Britishness, then you are wrong. It is about the workforce trying to get its message to its employer so they can preserve a certain level of safety and fairplay towards its employees. Alternatively it will help furture employees to reach their goal, which in turn, will be the opportunity to work for a decent salary in a decent work environment.
No more, no less.
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CEJM,
You're spot on to point out that there will NEVER be a fully united aviation industry with clear, accepted practices to do with hiring, it simply won't happen so theres little point hoping for that occurrence to sort out current problems. I've been commercially flying for over 20 years and have seen recessions come and go with the strength alternating from the employers to the staff and back again.......
This recession won't last forever, what we've all really got to do is to ensure that when the pendulum swings back in our direction we get the best T&C's possible. Its certainly not an 'alright jack' situation but to hope for existing employed pilots to push for improved conditions (and probably damage their own in the process) for those trying to enter the industry is a fantasy
Sorry to be blunt but its market forces that are at play here and theres no way around them.
You're spot on to point out that there will NEVER be a fully united aviation industry with clear, accepted practices to do with hiring, it simply won't happen so theres little point hoping for that occurrence to sort out current problems. I've been commercially flying for over 20 years and have seen recessions come and go with the strength alternating from the employers to the staff and back again.......
This recession won't last forever, what we've all really got to do is to ensure that when the pendulum swings back in our direction we get the best T&C's possible. Its certainly not an 'alright jack' situation but to hope for existing employed pilots to push for improved conditions (and probably damage their own in the process) for those trying to enter the industry is a fantasy
Sorry to be blunt but its market forces that are at play here and theres no way around them.
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The second language requirement is not always there to weed out foreign pilots. There is no requirement for ground engineers, operations support or the myriad of others involved in getting your aircraft safely airborne to speak English. Being unable to speak the local language can inhibit your ability to do your job properly.
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pkb, an excellent point and one I fully agree with, hence why personally I think it's a shame that imlimited, but blame no one for my lack of second language but myself!
I think my point in true time honoured fashion has actually been missed somewhat. There is every bit as little hope of getting all pilots to 'unite' as there is of getting all accountants to unite, or lawyer, or binmen... Were employed by different organisations with different requirements both corporately and individually. Therefore in this regard balpa serves it's purpose well enough. MY point however, is who is talking to the CAA about what the requirements are for training? Who is talking to them about FCL requirements and whether pay to fly schemes should be allowed?
I'll give you a clue, the fto's are, airlines like ryr will be... But the pilot body is not. Don't get me wrong starting a dialogue with theCAA is not the magic bullet to bring back the heyday of aviation, but it's a move in the right direction. Whether the body to open that dialogue should be balpa or not is very open to debate, but if would seem not too daft an idea as they are about as close to a single voice as this industry has [in this country at least]. Further, in my view doing so, representing those who currently have no voice by virtue of the fact they are not working, it's a start to breaking down some of the Walls that create the silo'd mentality in the first place. And no, I'm not saying that's balpas fault or responsibility, merely that they could be the ones to start the ball rolling...
I think my point in true time honoured fashion has actually been missed somewhat. There is every bit as little hope of getting all pilots to 'unite' as there is of getting all accountants to unite, or lawyer, or binmen... Were employed by different organisations with different requirements both corporately and individually. Therefore in this regard balpa serves it's purpose well enough. MY point however, is who is talking to the CAA about what the requirements are for training? Who is talking to them about FCL requirements and whether pay to fly schemes should be allowed?
I'll give you a clue, the fto's are, airlines like ryr will be... But the pilot body is not. Don't get me wrong starting a dialogue with theCAA is not the magic bullet to bring back the heyday of aviation, but it's a move in the right direction. Whether the body to open that dialogue should be balpa or not is very open to debate, but if would seem not too daft an idea as they are about as close to a single voice as this industry has [in this country at least]. Further, in my view doing so, representing those who currently have no voice by virtue of the fact they are not working, it's a start to breaking down some of the Walls that create the silo'd mentality in the first place. And no, I'm not saying that's balpas fault or responsibility, merely that they could be the ones to start the ball rolling...
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clanger32,
If the pilot body (BALPA) would speak to the CAA what exactly would you like them to use as an argument against the pay for a t/r scheme?
I do know what you are hinting at but think it through and you will see that there is not a lot we can do about it.
Would you like to give us an idea what you think this united voice would use as an argument to the CAA?
CEJM
If the pilot body (BALPA) would speak to the CAA what exactly would you like them to use as an argument against the pay for a t/r scheme?
I do know what you are hinting at but think it through and you will see that there is not a lot we can do about it.
Would you like to give us an idea what you think this united voice would use as an argument to the CAA?
CEJM
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Its also worth remembering that the job of the CAA is to ensure operator compliance with EU-OPS, thats their main responsibility. As long as airlines/TRTO's etc. comply with the rules then thats their job done. They're not an agency who can manipulate the current circumstances to assist the job prospects of those seeking to enter this industry.
The commercial activities of those offering SSTR's are of no concern to the CAA as long as they fall within the rules; therefore as CEJM has asked, on what basis could an approach to the CAA be made?
The commercial activities of those offering SSTR's are of no concern to the CAA as long as they fall within the rules; therefore as CEJM has asked, on what basis could an approach to the CAA be made?
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Granted the framework does not exist for BALPA or the CAA to do anything about the charade that is UK airline pilot recruitment. What BALPA can do at least is be clear about their current stance on the issue. Because to date the have remained very schtum on the subject.
A one pager stating what they think so everyone can read the opinion of the biggest Airline Pilot Union in the country.
A one pager stating what they think so everyone can read the opinion of the biggest Airline Pilot Union in the country.
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Its important that as a few have commented that this thread doesn't go off subject. i.e. buy a TR debate.
I'll explain why I did to hopefully draw a line under it. I looked into a FI job, however the amount of money to attain the licence, amount of days per year able to fly VFR in UK airspace and quality of hours in a C152 doing traffic patterns was countered by £20k for a jet TR. The 3 courses prior to mine had everyone securing a job by the end of the groundschool phase. Even if got the lowest wage in the industry I'd be looking at being even 12 months on but with 500-600 hours under my belt. That combined with the fact I didn't think the instructing route suited me.
As usual on PPRuNe a few who have posted on here have either came in half cocked. For example, reading a post, seeing a keyword or sentiment that causes the red mist to descend and an instant urge to press the "reply" button.
I have never advocated repatriation or blanket bans on foreign pilots. I merely suggested that our country has a large amount of people who have access to our home market therefore making it a little tougher. I would also draw attention to post 18 where I said:
"One of the reasons I like aviation is the international aspect of the job and colleagues. I don't advocate a nationalistic attitude. In a lot of other countries employers have to justify why they are hiring foreigners opposed to nationals. Maybe if we weren't too concerned about offending in the UK it could be looked at on a yearly basis."
I broached the subject of the main pilots union doing something about "fostering" (thesaurus lists: nurturing, promote, growth, development and cultivate) homegrown talent.
I also agree with StressFree, a group agreement amongst pilots will never happen and with Superpilot too. For a body who represents us there appears to a rather fuzzy approach, which I feel is not shared by their mainland European cousins who have no issues with fighting for their nationals.
This isn't a BALPA bashing thread, I gave them stick along with a number of others in the original post. Maybe leave off them for a bit as they must be hurting. Sending me a letter this morning asking if my status has changed would suggest trying to maximise income. My £2 per month obviously not cutting the mustard in the downturn.
I'll explain why I did to hopefully draw a line under it. I looked into a FI job, however the amount of money to attain the licence, amount of days per year able to fly VFR in UK airspace and quality of hours in a C152 doing traffic patterns was countered by £20k for a jet TR. The 3 courses prior to mine had everyone securing a job by the end of the groundschool phase. Even if got the lowest wage in the industry I'd be looking at being even 12 months on but with 500-600 hours under my belt. That combined with the fact I didn't think the instructing route suited me.
As usual on PPRuNe a few who have posted on here have either came in half cocked. For example, reading a post, seeing a keyword or sentiment that causes the red mist to descend and an instant urge to press the "reply" button.
I have never advocated repatriation or blanket bans on foreign pilots. I merely suggested that our country has a large amount of people who have access to our home market therefore making it a little tougher. I would also draw attention to post 18 where I said:
"One of the reasons I like aviation is the international aspect of the job and colleagues. I don't advocate a nationalistic attitude. In a lot of other countries employers have to justify why they are hiring foreigners opposed to nationals. Maybe if we weren't too concerned about offending in the UK it could be looked at on a yearly basis."
I broached the subject of the main pilots union doing something about "fostering" (thesaurus lists: nurturing, promote, growth, development and cultivate) homegrown talent.
I also agree with StressFree, a group agreement amongst pilots will never happen and with Superpilot too. For a body who represents us there appears to a rather fuzzy approach, which I feel is not shared by their mainland European cousins who have no issues with fighting for their nationals.
This isn't a BALPA bashing thread, I gave them stick along with a number of others in the original post. Maybe leave off them for a bit as they must be hurting. Sending me a letter this morning asking if my status has changed would suggest trying to maximise income. My £2 per month obviously not cutting the mustard in the downturn.
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Ok superpilot,
You want BALPA to make a stance on the issue. Can you answer the same question as I have asked clanger32, what stance should BALPA take? What precisely do you want from the union?
CEJM
You want BALPA to make a stance on the issue. Can you answer the same question as I have asked clanger32, what stance should BALPA take? What precisely do you want from the union?
CEJM
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I'm sorry, I wrote about a thousand words in response to your question but then realised that the issue I wanted BALPAs stance on was so deeply intertwined with other issues that its difficult to explain, even to myself.
After typing and typing I reached my own conclusion and that was that this actually has **** all to do with BALPA. BALPA is taken in whatever direction it's members want. If there is no BALPA movement on a subject that's probably because there's no pilot workforce movement on that subject.
Hence, all the problems to do with recruitment and training demands (SSTRs, pay to fly) placed on the wannabe actually come about because pilots who are union members are either too blind, lazy or selfish to do anything about it. Why should they care, they'll have moved on by then. The issue isn't BALPA, it's human nature. Something I'm not gonna bother changing.
So I'll shut up here.
After typing and typing I reached my own conclusion and that was that this actually has **** all to do with BALPA. BALPA is taken in whatever direction it's members want. If there is no BALPA movement on a subject that's probably because there's no pilot workforce movement on that subject.
Hence, all the problems to do with recruitment and training demands (SSTRs, pay to fly) placed on the wannabe actually come about because pilots who are union members are either too blind, lazy or selfish to do anything about it. Why should they care, they'll have moved on by then. The issue isn't BALPA, it's human nature. Something I'm not gonna bother changing.
So I'll shut up here.
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Superpilot,
I disagree with you. Every trainee (or unemployed/retired/overseas) can join BALPA for £24 a year. If every trainee would sign up to BALPA and they together present a case towards BALPA then it would probably get looked at.
However instead of throwing all your toys out of the pram you still haven't answered the question.
If all union members that are either too blind, lazy or selfish (your words, not mine) get their arse into gear then which case would you like them to present to BALPA and the CAA? Please state specific examples.
Also let me ask you another question. Are you a BALPA member? If not then why not? Why don't you join BALPA and try to get your wish on the agenda, instead of calling every BALPA member names.
It's all very easy to come on this website and vent your anger (which in the current climate I can understand). However it would suit you better if you also came up with a solution (that works) to the problem you mention.
CEJM
I disagree with you. Every trainee (or unemployed/retired/overseas) can join BALPA for £24 a year. If every trainee would sign up to BALPA and they together present a case towards BALPA then it would probably get looked at.
However instead of throwing all your toys out of the pram you still haven't answered the question.
If all union members that are either too blind, lazy or selfish (your words, not mine) get their arse into gear then which case would you like them to present to BALPA and the CAA? Please state specific examples.
Also let me ask you another question. Are you a BALPA member? If not then why not? Why don't you join BALPA and try to get your wish on the agenda, instead of calling every BALPA member names.
It's all very easy to come on this website and vent your anger (which in the current climate I can understand). However it would suit you better if you also came up with a solution (that works) to the problem you mention.
CEJM
Join Date: Jan 2005
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BBC NEWS | Business | Think twice, budding lawyers told
Thats exactly what BALPA should be telling every wannabe out there at the moment.
Thats exactly what BALPA should be telling every wannabe out there at the moment.
I expressed a notion that newly or recently qualified British pilots have one of the toughest routes to a job in my humble opinion, experience and in the experience of my contemporaries. It appears to me that this thread has been picked up by sensitive antipodeans, those currently employed and relatively safe and the political correctness police.
An issue for me as a UK born and bred citizen is that I see pilots from most Commonwealth & EU nations working here without any caveats. For me to work in NZ, South Africa or Germany there are visa issues
Also the heavy jet rating I have is a joint one with a single isle aircraft. When I undertook my training the world was a different place and the TR course prior to mine, everyone had a guaranteed job 2 weeks in.
qualified British pilots have one of the toughest routes to a job in my humble opinion, experience and in the experience of my contemporaries.
Thought not.
Its important that as a few have commented that this thread doesn't go off subject. i.e. buy a TR debate.
Where did you say "should you buy a TR"? 
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Veetwo,
In all fairness if all the wanabees did a bit of research and listen to the experienced guys they would know that a career in the airline industry isn't the best choice one could make at the moment.
In all fairness if all the wanabees did a bit of research and listen to the experienced guys they would know that a career in the airline industry isn't the best choice one could make at the moment.