The Job Front - Note to the Unions, Chief Pilots, Agencies and Fellow Pilots
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The Job Front - Note to the Unions, Chief Pilots, Agencies and Fellow Pilots
I feel compelled to write this email in response to my current dire situation, the dire situation of the world market, the gloom on the horizon and after reading some other posts on here.
Firstly I will clear some things up regarding me. I have both FAA and JAA licences. I paid for my initial TR, which with hindsight I regret for 2 reasons, a) I picked the wrong type, and b) I didn't have a guaranteed job. However in my defence when I started the course the market was pretty buoyant and everyone from the course before me had been offered jobs before finishing.
I don't regret going directly on to a onto a heavy jet TR before serving (what some other pilots consider) an apprenticeship as a Flight Instructor, Aerial Photography, Air Taxi, Small Turboprop pilot before moving on up. I don't think there are enough jobs in the UK to justify every newly qualified pilot doing so. Some people have a natural aptitude for instructing, I don't feel I have the character, therefore I went to where I felt I would be happiest.
Next to BALPA, those who look out for us .... for their 1%. An issue for me as a UK born and bred citizen is that I see pilots from most Commonwealth & EU nations working here without any caveats. For me to work in NZ, South Africa or Germany there are visa issues and in non-English speaking countries, demands that any employees speak the national language. Granted the majority of us tend to be lazy when it comes to languages because English is the lingua franca of the world and consequently aviation. However I am sure they could do something to promote and foster UK talent, otherwise British citizens will leave to get that first jet job (of course some by choice) and import foreign pilots.
So onto the list:
To Chief Pilots:
1./ Integrated is not the be all and end all. While Oxford, Cabair and Jerez do offer a known quantity, be aware that a great deal of people have to continue working or have to opt to go the modular route for financial reasons. It does not make them a worse pilot, remember they have to motive themselves, study without contemporaries and can't grade themselves with coursemates on a daily basis for extra motivation.
2./ You would have qualified prior to the turn of the century (unless you have had meteoric promotion) can you be aware that things for us qualifying are very different to what I expect you had to do.
3./ We have funded a PPL, CPL, IR, ME, ATPL's, TR's, give us a break, give us the chance you were given, give us the opportunity to have the dignity of working in a job we've aspired to. Give us the chance to stay close to the friends and family (if we wish to do so) rather than scouring the interweb to see if Azerbaijan Air is recruiting.
To Agencies:
1./ I've heard all sorts from different agencies, some would make you wince, like "I had a 10,000 Turboprop guy apply for a job on a startup 747, they were offering TR's but what does a turboprop guy offer, its too big a leap". This is what you get when you cross failed Psychology students reinventing themselves as consultants. Because you are essentially a salesman. You are the middleman who tries to pay the worker as little as possible and charge the airline as much as possible because you are paid on your margin. If you are going to take the industry standard of at least Ģ7 per hour, know and research your industry.
2./ Stop lying to us, if there is bugger all chance of a job then don't string us along. Remember you work for commission, but you also have an influence on someones ability to feed their family and keep a roof over their heads, don't be blase'.
3./ Don't always look for the easy fix, try telling/selling the airlines the benefits of British, low houred pilots rather than moving 7,500+ pilots in constant 6 month/1 year cycles.
To BALPA:
1./ Your hands are tied to a degree as all professional pilots must speak English to a ICAO standard. If they hold a visa or are a EU citizen then they can be employed here. You must recognise the problems associated though for homegrown newly qualified pilots. Please endeavour to do something to protect us.
2./ When you have a jobs conference with 95% of the attendees having a 250 hour fATPL, question having Etihad, Emirates and Qatar airlines giving presentations asking you to apply with .... only 4,000 hours
To UK Flying Club Members:
1./ Do not fear the FAA, yes things are slightly different there, mostly in terms of RT and attitudes. It is more inclusive, open and yes ... much cheaper. To those who wince and consider those suspiciously, I say to you, a C-152 stalls at the same speed in UK airspace as it does in US, however when you land afterwards you don't pay landing fees and you've spent 50% or less for the hourly rate of the aircraft.
To companies selling hour packages:
1./ Rot in the pits of hell
2./ I hope your next girlfriend is SuBo, you get a venereal disease and she is the best you can get and ever hope for.
I apologise to foreign pilots reading this, I am writing this for me and for a number of my friends and former colleagues, we happen to be British and struggling (not that you aren't). It is not Jingoistic.
Firstly I will clear some things up regarding me. I have both FAA and JAA licences. I paid for my initial TR, which with hindsight I regret for 2 reasons, a) I picked the wrong type, and b) I didn't have a guaranteed job. However in my defence when I started the course the market was pretty buoyant and everyone from the course before me had been offered jobs before finishing.
I don't regret going directly on to a onto a heavy jet TR before serving (what some other pilots consider) an apprenticeship as a Flight Instructor, Aerial Photography, Air Taxi, Small Turboprop pilot before moving on up. I don't think there are enough jobs in the UK to justify every newly qualified pilot doing so. Some people have a natural aptitude for instructing, I don't feel I have the character, therefore I went to where I felt I would be happiest.
Next to BALPA, those who look out for us .... for their 1%. An issue for me as a UK born and bred citizen is that I see pilots from most Commonwealth & EU nations working here without any caveats. For me to work in NZ, South Africa or Germany there are visa issues and in non-English speaking countries, demands that any employees speak the national language. Granted the majority of us tend to be lazy when it comes to languages because English is the lingua franca of the world and consequently aviation. However I am sure they could do something to promote and foster UK talent, otherwise British citizens will leave to get that first jet job (of course some by choice) and import foreign pilots.
So onto the list:
To Chief Pilots:
1./ Integrated is not the be all and end all. While Oxford, Cabair and Jerez do offer a known quantity, be aware that a great deal of people have to continue working or have to opt to go the modular route for financial reasons. It does not make them a worse pilot, remember they have to motive themselves, study without contemporaries and can't grade themselves with coursemates on a daily basis for extra motivation.
2./ You would have qualified prior to the turn of the century (unless you have had meteoric promotion) can you be aware that things for us qualifying are very different to what I expect you had to do.
3./ We have funded a PPL, CPL, IR, ME, ATPL's, TR's, give us a break, give us the chance you were given, give us the opportunity to have the dignity of working in a job we've aspired to. Give us the chance to stay close to the friends and family (if we wish to do so) rather than scouring the interweb to see if Azerbaijan Air is recruiting.
To Agencies:
1./ I've heard all sorts from different agencies, some would make you wince, like "I had a 10,000 Turboprop guy apply for a job on a startup 747, they were offering TR's but what does a turboprop guy offer, its too big a leap". This is what you get when you cross failed Psychology students reinventing themselves as consultants. Because you are essentially a salesman. You are the middleman who tries to pay the worker as little as possible and charge the airline as much as possible because you are paid on your margin. If you are going to take the industry standard of at least Ģ7 per hour, know and research your industry.
2./ Stop lying to us, if there is bugger all chance of a job then don't string us along. Remember you work for commission, but you also have an influence on someones ability to feed their family and keep a roof over their heads, don't be blase'.
3./ Don't always look for the easy fix, try telling/selling the airlines the benefits of British, low houred pilots rather than moving 7,500+ pilots in constant 6 month/1 year cycles.
To BALPA:
1./ Your hands are tied to a degree as all professional pilots must speak English to a ICAO standard. If they hold a visa or are a EU citizen then they can be employed here. You must recognise the problems associated though for homegrown newly qualified pilots. Please endeavour to do something to protect us.
2./ When you have a jobs conference with 95% of the attendees having a 250 hour fATPL, question having Etihad, Emirates and Qatar airlines giving presentations asking you to apply with .... only 4,000 hours
To UK Flying Club Members:
1./ Do not fear the FAA, yes things are slightly different there, mostly in terms of RT and attitudes. It is more inclusive, open and yes ... much cheaper. To those who wince and consider those suspiciously, I say to you, a C-152 stalls at the same speed in UK airspace as it does in US, however when you land afterwards you don't pay landing fees and you've spent 50% or less for the hourly rate of the aircraft.
To companies selling hour packages:
1./ Rot in the pits of hell
2./ I hope your next girlfriend is SuBo, you get a venereal disease and she is the best you can get and ever hope for.
I apologise to foreign pilots reading this, I am writing this for me and for a number of my friends and former colleagues, we happen to be British and struggling (not that you aren't). It is not Jingoistic.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Commonwealth & EU nations working here without any caveats
For the ancestral visa, a grandparent must be born in the UK.
Checkboard came here on an ancestral visa and now has a UK passport, that is, British citizenship after fulfilling all the (ever changing) requirements and paying out approx Ģ2,000.
Without the (close) ancestral ties we have with Britain we would have no chance of immigrating here under the UK's present polices.
I do understand your frustration, however, as some one who has gone "modular" and done the instructing, bush flying and turbo prop flying, I feel I deserve the job I have.
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I have to agree with redsnail on this one.
I think it wont be long before you get the posts on the amount of British Pilots flying in other countries.I am one of them.I came out to Australia as a British Citizen and had to jump through their visa hoops and I dare say there are a number of locals who would prefer my job to have gone to one of them.If I and all the others returned to the UK there would be even less jobs available!Like it or not it is a worldwide market now.
I too went modular-spent a lot of years instructing AND it still took a long time to get that airline job despite several thousand hours.I went through the recession early nineties, lost my job, unemployed for two years and I am sure there are plenty of others who also had it "tough."
The UK has been fairly unusual to the extent that 250 hour pilots could get a direct entry job with an airline - if and when the worldwide problems subside and things pick up I would expect them to return to "normal". However you will then be competing with newly qualified pilots that may perhaps have the edge so if you are willing to take a bit of advice from someone who thinks he has also been through it in the meantime get any flying in you can (whether you think you will enjoy it or not), instructing, para dropping, glider tugging, paid or unpaid.This will at least keep your hand in giving you a chance when that sim ride comes up and perhaps more importantly give you a chance to create "contacts", a large amount of pilots getting jobs that I have come across have achieved their break that way.
Finally I would say dont give up but dont have unrealistic expectations - it can be a long and slow road getting there.
I think it wont be long before you get the posts on the amount of British Pilots flying in other countries.I am one of them.I came out to Australia as a British Citizen and had to jump through their visa hoops and I dare say there are a number of locals who would prefer my job to have gone to one of them.If I and all the others returned to the UK there would be even less jobs available!Like it or not it is a worldwide market now.
I too went modular-spent a lot of years instructing AND it still took a long time to get that airline job despite several thousand hours.I went through the recession early nineties, lost my job, unemployed for two years and I am sure there are plenty of others who also had it "tough."
The UK has been fairly unusual to the extent that 250 hour pilots could get a direct entry job with an airline - if and when the worldwide problems subside and things pick up I would expect them to return to "normal". However you will then be competing with newly qualified pilots that may perhaps have the edge so if you are willing to take a bit of advice from someone who thinks he has also been through it in the meantime get any flying in you can (whether you think you will enjoy it or not), instructing, para dropping, glider tugging, paid or unpaid.This will at least keep your hand in giving you a chance when that sim ride comes up and perhaps more importantly give you a chance to create "contacts", a large amount of pilots getting jobs that I have come across have achieved their break that way.
Finally I would say dont give up but dont have unrealistic expectations - it can be a long and slow road getting there.
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Dreamshiner,
The EU thing I do agree with. Unrestricted working rights within the EU hurt the British the most. They hurt us really bad because we cannot compete with most Spaniards, French, German, Dutch, Nordic and Eastern European people when it comes to multilingual skills.
The problem is worse for pilots because of the very nature of aviation and the installation of English as the standard language. Every EU pilot speaks English! European pilots have an amazing advantage. They really can work anywhere in Europe.
We have been failed by our educational institutions who make it a tiny option to learn other languages. Back when I was in school, our roster allocated 1-2 hours of French per week! We got useless subjects like History and Humanities (combined 4-6 hours) which give us no advantage in the modern world.
On one hand European airlines are required to hire anyone from the EU, on the other hand they stipulate fluent [Local Language]. This effectively guarantees that pilot jobs will only go to local people. It takes a very long time to be fluent in a language that you start learning properly at 21 I can tell you that. The whole thing when applied to Pilot jobs makes a charade of Unrestricted EU Working Rights
This is not a dig at European pilots. I'm just saying it like it is for the British. Tough. Very tough.
You mention BALPA. BALPA has only ever achieved anything for on the line pilots. Thats pilots with a job. The CAA exist to make the industry better (and they do a crap job at it). Neither of these do bugger all to protect the overall industry. Neither oversees recruitment and hiring practices. This allows airlines and TRTOs (mostly one man bands belonging to airline recruitment personnel) to run the entire show, stipulating whatever fancy requirements they have netting them tidy personal profits in the process. Its all very sickening.
The EU thing I do agree with. Unrestricted working rights within the EU hurt the British the most. They hurt us really bad because we cannot compete with most Spaniards, French, German, Dutch, Nordic and Eastern European people when it comes to multilingual skills.
The problem is worse for pilots because of the very nature of aviation and the installation of English as the standard language. Every EU pilot speaks English! European pilots have an amazing advantage. They really can work anywhere in Europe.
We have been failed by our educational institutions who make it a tiny option to learn other languages. Back when I was in school, our roster allocated 1-2 hours of French per week! We got useless subjects like History and Humanities (combined 4-6 hours) which give us no advantage in the modern world.
On one hand European airlines are required to hire anyone from the EU, on the other hand they stipulate fluent [Local Language]. This effectively guarantees that pilot jobs will only go to local people. It takes a very long time to be fluent in a language that you start learning properly at 21 I can tell you that. The whole thing when applied to Pilot jobs makes a charade of Unrestricted EU Working Rights
This is not a dig at European pilots. I'm just saying it like it is for the British. Tough. Very tough.
You mention BALPA. BALPA has only ever achieved anything for on the line pilots. Thats pilots with a job. The CAA exist to make the industry better (and they do a crap job at it). Neither of these do bugger all to protect the overall industry. Neither oversees recruitment and hiring practices. This allows airlines and TRTOs (mostly one man bands belonging to airline recruitment personnel) to run the entire show, stipulating whatever fancy requirements they have netting them tidy personal profits in the process. Its all very sickening.
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Whilst the market is invariably very tough at the moment you need to consider the stark reality that most wannabes will NEVER ever get jobs. You and your friends woke up one day and decided to go and be a pilot. It was a process of self selection. No one is there to hold your hand and guide you through.You may or may not have given much thought to what was required to pass interview tests or even how to secure a foot in the door and get a sniff at a job.
The only person holding you back from getting a job is yourself. You can blame whatever and whoever you want but ultimately there will be people that you trained with that will get the few jobs going. Perhaps its because they are better pilots, perhaps its having contacts in the industry, perhaps they can spell on application forms, perhaps they put together a nicer CV, maybe they answered the interview questions better or showed better interpersonal skills, maybe they will have delayed their training when the warning bells of an impending recession were ringing, or perhaps they were just plain luckier than you. Yes you can argue that its not fair but there will always be a reason.
PS: Isn't CTC placing people down in NZ on contracts on the A320? Can't all be kiwis me thinks. Perhaps you aren't looking in the right place for job opportunities.
The only person holding you back from getting a job is yourself. You can blame whatever and whoever you want but ultimately there will be people that you trained with that will get the few jobs going. Perhaps its because they are better pilots, perhaps its having contacts in the industry, perhaps they can spell on application forms, perhaps they put together a nicer CV, maybe they answered the interview questions better or showed better interpersonal skills, maybe they will have delayed their training when the warning bells of an impending recession were ringing, or perhaps they were just plain luckier than you. Yes you can argue that its not fair but there will always be a reason.
PS: Isn't CTC placing people down in NZ on contracts on the A320? Can't all be kiwis me thinks. Perhaps you aren't looking in the right place for job opportunities.
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Well Dreamshiner,
I too find myself in similar situation however having a foreign language will not really help in this case ( I have fluent French as I am native speaker and even more fluent English as I have lived here for 30years) and I can't get a single French speaking airline to respond to my emails and applications!
Right now there is simply f****all work and that's that!
I was however employed by the company on the ground first and was asked to pay for my TR and was lucky enough to work for a year in the right seat before being made redundant and as such I do have hours of type and hope this will help in the future...or get me my old job back if and when the company finds its feet again!
I am happy to have a turboprop rating however as I think it (MAY) improve my chances as so far there seems to be more jet pilots on the market, but only time will tell. As far as your very last 2 comments ....couldn't agree with you more!!!!!!!! Good luck, don't lose hope, it's hard and like you I was never enclined to instruct and especially have no more money to train as such......
feel that keeping my TR up to date is possibly money better spent.
Good luck everyone in the same boat, IT SUCKS!!!!!
I too find myself in similar situation however having a foreign language will not really help in this case ( I have fluent French as I am native speaker and even more fluent English as I have lived here for 30years) and I can't get a single French speaking airline to respond to my emails and applications!
Right now there is simply f****all work and that's that!
I was however employed by the company on the ground first and was asked to pay for my TR and was lucky enough to work for a year in the right seat before being made redundant and as such I do have hours of type and hope this will help in the future...or get me my old job back if and when the company finds its feet again!
I am happy to have a turboprop rating however as I think it (MAY) improve my chances as so far there seems to be more jet pilots on the market, but only time will tell. As far as your very last 2 comments ....couldn't agree with you more!!!!!!!! Good luck, don't lose hope, it's hard and like you I was never enclined to instruct and especially have no more money to train as such......
feel that keeping my TR up to date is possibly money better spent.
Good luck everyone in the same boat, IT SUCKS!!!!!
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Perhaps its because they are better pilots, perhaps its having contacts in the industry, perhaps they can spell on application forms, perhaps they put together a nicer CV, maybe they answered the interview questions better or showed better interpersonal skills
I think what DreamShiner has said can be applied to 2 years ago and not just today. Its true that in the face of hardships only we can do anything that will help our situation and yes I agree, ultimately everyone is responsible for their own success. However, I dont see any problem with DreamShiner highlighting bad and immoral practices which result in unfair treatment and discrimination. These practices are after all ruining the entire industry. The cost of training is going up, the number of pre-reqs (which cost money) are going up and salaries are going down. If pilots re-adjust and adapt to the industry any further in 10 years time the max they will ever earn will be on par with bus drivers. This is exactly what MOL wants for sure.
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Just to clear a few things up:
I too have over 700 hours on the jet TR I bought, however its the same type that's been hit with all the mergers and administration, consequently the market is flooded with people much more experienced than I am, so it will take quite a while for these people to be whittled away before I am an attractive prospect.
To Redsnail, I agree in part. For me to go to Australia I likewise have to pay Ģ2,000 for the visa and convert the licence. The only difference is I have no parents or grandparents who have emigrated the other way. Also if I wish to get an Australian passport, I have to live there permanently for 3 years first. I suppose the current situation is evidence of our colonial past.
I am by no means having a go at these people Redsnail, I would go the opposite way if Australia was as open to me. You must however agree that the UK is accessible for a great number of pilots, however us Brits don't have the same opportunities in other countries.
For example, if Ryanair went bust tomorrow, I'm pretty confident you wouldn't see an influx in Australasia akin to the one that followed the Ansett demise over 10 years ago. Anyone who has ever heard Easy callsigns over Brest FIR will testify to that.
The second issue relates to the particular geography of the British Isles. As a result of the proximity of the major cities and the high urban density, there are not the same requirements on general aviation as there are in countries that are vast such as the US or Aus / NZ. Yes we have stuff up to King Air size doing air ambulance work, seneca's delivering mail cheques, and various stuff kicking about the Scottish Islands however not proportional to UK pilot numbers as in the two countries mentioned above.
I also accept that 250 hour jet pilots are/were common in Europe alone, The US for example (because I know it well) looks for you to have approx. 2,000-2,500 hours before even entertaining it. As mentioned above, they have more scope to accumulate those hours working your way up.
I didn't pursue the Instructing route as some feel should come naturally. I determined that the money to attain the qualification would be better spent on my TR. I had no aptitude for it, no desire and didn't feel instructing in the UK (too many non VFR days) or flying traffic patterns would serve my ultimate goal. Do I regret this in the current climate? .... not really. As I mentioned before, I regret my choice of TR and course provider.
I bypassed the UK SE CPL and went straight to the ME, therefore I can't go for certain jobs mentioned. Do I regret this too? .... Not really, I can't continue to throw money at this career, I'm at the stage where I think its valid to suggest that I get paid to fly rather than the other way round.
CTC is also not open to me as I have a TR and hours on type, I am considered to have above the ATP scheme threshold.
I would say that I am realistic about my job chances, I do scour the well trodden websites twice daily. I know at present the circumstances of our economic slowdown. I have applied for office jobs here to keep the wolf from the door, however I am in competition with approx. 30 others, some of whom were made redundant from a similar job a few weeks ago. I also have to explain why my CV has 2 years of pilot training and what a lot of employers would consider an aspiration job, therefore long-term they know I am not a stable prospect. That combined 4 years since leaving my previous career is a hard one to sell.
The post was written by and concerned my situation, I am a UK citizen and therefore outlined my particular experiences. Unlike some tire-kickers on here, I don't second guess and pontificate.
I too have over 700 hours on the jet TR I bought, however its the same type that's been hit with all the mergers and administration, consequently the market is flooded with people much more experienced than I am, so it will take quite a while for these people to be whittled away before I am an attractive prospect.
To Redsnail, I agree in part. For me to go to Australia I likewise have to pay Ģ2,000 for the visa and convert the licence. The only difference is I have no parents or grandparents who have emigrated the other way. Also if I wish to get an Australian passport, I have to live there permanently for 3 years first. I suppose the current situation is evidence of our colonial past.
I am by no means having a go at these people Redsnail, I would go the opposite way if Australia was as open to me. You must however agree that the UK is accessible for a great number of pilots, however us Brits don't have the same opportunities in other countries.
For example, if Ryanair went bust tomorrow, I'm pretty confident you wouldn't see an influx in Australasia akin to the one that followed the Ansett demise over 10 years ago. Anyone who has ever heard Easy callsigns over Brest FIR will testify to that.
The second issue relates to the particular geography of the British Isles. As a result of the proximity of the major cities and the high urban density, there are not the same requirements on general aviation as there are in countries that are vast such as the US or Aus / NZ. Yes we have stuff up to King Air size doing air ambulance work, seneca's delivering mail cheques, and various stuff kicking about the Scottish Islands however not proportional to UK pilot numbers as in the two countries mentioned above.
I also accept that 250 hour jet pilots are/were common in Europe alone, The US for example (because I know it well) looks for you to have approx. 2,000-2,500 hours before even entertaining it. As mentioned above, they have more scope to accumulate those hours working your way up.
I didn't pursue the Instructing route as some feel should come naturally. I determined that the money to attain the qualification would be better spent on my TR. I had no aptitude for it, no desire and didn't feel instructing in the UK (too many non VFR days) or flying traffic patterns would serve my ultimate goal. Do I regret this in the current climate? .... not really. As I mentioned before, I regret my choice of TR and course provider.
I bypassed the UK SE CPL and went straight to the ME, therefore I can't go for certain jobs mentioned. Do I regret this too? .... Not really, I can't continue to throw money at this career, I'm at the stage where I think its valid to suggest that I get paid to fly rather than the other way round.
CTC is also not open to me as I have a TR and hours on type, I am considered to have above the ATP scheme threshold.
I would say that I am realistic about my job chances, I do scour the well trodden websites twice daily. I know at present the circumstances of our economic slowdown. I have applied for office jobs here to keep the wolf from the door, however I am in competition with approx. 30 others, some of whom were made redundant from a similar job a few weeks ago. I also have to explain why my CV has 2 years of pilot training and what a lot of employers would consider an aspiration job, therefore long-term they know I am not a stable prospect. That combined 4 years since leaving my previous career is a hard one to sell.
The post was written by and concerned my situation, I am a UK citizen and therefore outlined my particular experiences. Unlike some tire-kickers on here, I don't second guess and pontificate.
As a result of the proximity of the major cities and the high urban density, there are not the same requirements on general aviation as there are in countries that are vast such as the US or Aus / NZ.
Sure private flying is much much more affordable here but that's because it's made stupidly expensive in the UK, mainly I suspect to try and keep out the ordinary person.
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Dreamshiner. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with your comments however they are food for thought for the UK based aviation industry, it's future and the future of those who work within it.
A point that was raised was the situation of languages and employment within the EU.
I have noticed many, many, I may be even so bold as to say the majority of, crew positions throughout non-English speaking Europe stipulate fluency in the local language. Conversely, with English being the language of aviation, now to a specific standard UK nationals are at a distinct disadvantage on the European job scene for flight desk positions.
While there are effectively no restriction on EU working rights a stipulation for an Austrian, French, Spanish, German, Italian etc etc employers to require a fluency in local language skills limits the application base from alternative EU countries.
While it may not be unusual for a degree of competency in a second language, can competency be classed as fluency?
However, with English as a industry standard any UK operator could without doubt receive an application base from all EU nationalities, while a Greek, French, Spanish, German etc etc operator who requires "fluency" in a local language will be limiting the application base to local pilots, bar a fractional amount that have fluency in that language.
This is not a reflection on EU nationals who are employed by UK operators, nor is it open season for a barrage of UK nationals with fluency in a foreign language ( I am passable in two).
In order for a level playing field it would necessitate a UK national with English as a first language to have fluency in all EU languages. Likewise, every EU national to be fluent in every other EU language in order for the application process to be non discriminatory.
This is a failing of UK government itself.
Another point which I noticed: Say for example one goes from ab-intio to a 250 hour CPL through an integrated FTO and is makes an application to an operation that has agreement with said FTO for a flight deck position, yes said operation requires those who apply directly to have say 1,000 hour total time, is that not again a discriminatory situation.
We all train to a specific standard, are examined by the same authority, sit the same examinations under the same conditions, yet if you went to "x" FTO as integrated student your application is processed, whereas if you went to "x" FTO as a modular, or "Y" FTO it is summarily rejected as not meeting posted minimum requirements, whereas the integrated student from "x" FTO has 25% of the posted minimum requirements.
The industry in this country has suffered from poor policy and support from all angles for too long, to be honest I am surprised at what we do have.
Potkettleblack
I disagree, and that is very sanctimonious.
There needs to be an objective view of the failings of the industry and careful consideration, both in the sort term and long term, of how the failings can be resolved as it benefits the industry as whole.
With that kind of attitude we would never have had the Chicago Convention of 1944:
The Convention on International Civil Aviation set forth the purpose of ICAO:
"WHEREAS the future development of international civil aviation can greatly help to create and preserve friendship and understanding among the nations and peoples of the world, yet its abuse can become a threat to the general security; and
WHEREAS it is desirable to avoid friction and to promote that co-operation between nations and peoples upon which the peace of the world depends; THEREFORE, the undersigned governments having agreed on certain principles and arrangements in order that international civil aviation may be developed in a safe and orderly manner and that international air transport services may be established on the basis of equality of opportunity and operated soundly and economically;
A point that was raised was the situation of languages and employment within the EU.
I have noticed many, many, I may be even so bold as to say the majority of, crew positions throughout non-English speaking Europe stipulate fluency in the local language. Conversely, with English being the language of aviation, now to a specific standard UK nationals are at a distinct disadvantage on the European job scene for flight desk positions.
While there are effectively no restriction on EU working rights a stipulation for an Austrian, French, Spanish, German, Italian etc etc employers to require a fluency in local language skills limits the application base from alternative EU countries.
While it may not be unusual for a degree of competency in a second language, can competency be classed as fluency?
However, with English as a industry standard any UK operator could without doubt receive an application base from all EU nationalities, while a Greek, French, Spanish, German etc etc operator who requires "fluency" in a local language will be limiting the application base to local pilots, bar a fractional amount that have fluency in that language.
This is not a reflection on EU nationals who are employed by UK operators, nor is it open season for a barrage of UK nationals with fluency in a foreign language ( I am passable in two).
In order for a level playing field it would necessitate a UK national with English as a first language to have fluency in all EU languages. Likewise, every EU national to be fluent in every other EU language in order for the application process to be non discriminatory.
This is a failing of UK government itself.
Another point which I noticed: Say for example one goes from ab-intio to a 250 hour CPL through an integrated FTO and is makes an application to an operation that has agreement with said FTO for a flight deck position, yes said operation requires those who apply directly to have say 1,000 hour total time, is that not again a discriminatory situation.
We all train to a specific standard, are examined by the same authority, sit the same examinations under the same conditions, yet if you went to "x" FTO as integrated student your application is processed, whereas if you went to "x" FTO as a modular, or "Y" FTO it is summarily rejected as not meeting posted minimum requirements, whereas the integrated student from "x" FTO has 25% of the posted minimum requirements.
The industry in this country has suffered from poor policy and support from all angles for too long, to be honest I am surprised at what we do have.
Potkettleblack
The only person holding you back from getting a job is yourself.
There needs to be an objective view of the failings of the industry and careful consideration, both in the sort term and long term, of how the failings can be resolved as it benefits the industry as whole.
With that kind of attitude we would never have had the Chicago Convention of 1944:
The Convention on International Civil Aviation set forth the purpose of ICAO:
"WHEREAS the future development of international civil aviation can greatly help to create and preserve friendship and understanding among the nations and peoples of the world, yet its abuse can become a threat to the general security; and
WHEREAS it is desirable to avoid friction and to promote that co-operation between nations and peoples upon which the peace of the world depends; THEREFORE, the undersigned governments having agreed on certain principles and arrangements in order that international civil aviation may be developed in a safe and orderly manner and that international air transport services may be established on the basis of equality of opportunity and operated soundly and economically;
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27/09
While NZ is similar in size, the distances between major towns and cities(and gap of water between the islands) led me to my suggestion. In my defence I also added:
"proportional to UK pilot numbers"
Consequently I don't think for having 15x more population we have 15x more scope for general aviation in this country compared to NZ.
Correct me if I am wrong.
While NZ is similar in size, the distances between major towns and cities(and gap of water between the islands) led me to my suggestion. In my defence I also added:
"proportional to UK pilot numbers"
Consequently I don't think for having 15x more population we have 15x more scope for general aviation in this country compared to NZ.
Correct me if I am wrong.
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However, I dont see any problem with DreamShiner highlighting bad and immoral practices which result in unfair treatment and discrimination. These practices are after all ruining the entire industry. The cost of training is going up, the number of pre-reqs (which cost money) are going up and salaries are going down. If pilots re-adjust and adapt to the industry any further in 10 years time the max they will ever earn will be on par with bus drivers
THIS IS THE REAL PROBLEM !!!!!!
AS OTHERS HAVE MENTIONED BEFORE...LET'S GET A REAL JOB...(NOT IN THE AIR)...ITS GOING DOWN THE TOILET, PILOTING THAT IS!
BUT,BUT... ,AS PETTER SOLBERG THE WRC DRIVER RAMBLES, WE(ALL OF US DREAMING PILOTS TO BE) ARE TO BLAME!!!!! WE HAVE BEEN WILLING TO PROSTITUTE OUR SELVES SINCE 1980. NOW, FINALY THE SHOW IS OVER....I THINK
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Wa wa wa - boo hoo is all I am hearing here.
Do we live in a communist state?
No - this is a free market economy and rightly so. Nobody owes you a living.
Only Brits for British jobs? Bullsh1t.
Perhaps it should only be jobs for those born and raised 6 generations in the town where the operations is based?
How about getting on with learning a foreign language rather than bemoaning those who have done so - or we could continue to blame the government for that too?
Do we live in a communist state?
No - this is a free market economy and rightly so. Nobody owes you a living.
Only Brits for British jobs? Bullsh1t.
Perhaps it should only be jobs for those born and raised 6 generations in the town where the operations is based?
How about getting on with learning a foreign language rather than bemoaning those who have done so - or we could continue to blame the government for that too?
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I am a Brit and I work abroad and my foreign language skills leave a lot to be desired. My terms and conditions are significantly more than any of the locals that I work with. I wonder if they moan about these foreigners that they see coming in? 
The British aviation industry is on its backside and shows no signs of an immediate recovery. I knew that after I was made redundant at the end of last year and I looked abroad and got flying again after a couple of months. Nearly all my ex colleagues are working again and they are abroad and a sizeable number of them in Europe. The vast majority of them do not speak a second language.
The British aviation industry is on its backside and shows no signs of an immediate recovery. I knew that after I was made redundant at the end of last year and I looked abroad and got flying again after a couple of months. Nearly all my ex colleagues are working again and they are abroad and a sizeable number of them in Europe. The vast majority of them do not speak a second language.
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Dreamshiner,
Don't want to make this into a personal dispute, but who are you blaming that a lot of foreigners are working for British airlines?
Unfortunately you have only your own school system and yourself to blame. For these foreigners english is a second language and as such has to be learned. Take for example the Dutch, they start with english lessons at the age of 10 and in many cases have it as a mandatory subject up to the age of 18. So they put a lot of effort in learning the language.
The British (not all!!) drop any foreign language at school as quickly as they can. Then later in life they complain that the world isn't fair to them. Who is there to blame?
While I can partly understand your frustration why don't you instead of posting on this forum make your time usefull and learn another language?
Yes, most company's require you to be fluent but the thruth is slightly different. Lufthansa Cityline (they took lowhoured people) is happy if you make an effort to speak to the language and accept that you will get more proficient when you work/live in Germany. From the people I have spoken to who did the DLR tests they are even available in english!.
The French do indeed require you to be fluent in French. KLM has a fair amount of 'foreigners' working for them who only learned the language after they got the job.
And as Mister Geezer already said when you venture a bit further then the Brest FIR you will hear a lot of British voices with Etihad/Emirates etc. callsigns. So please don't think that the Brits don't go abroad to fly.
To be honest I am a bit disappointed with your attitude. You say the instructing would not serve your ultimate goal. So do you really think that because you have got a fATPL the world owes you a job on a jet or turboprop?
If you really did this job because you were a true pilot then you would accept anything else as long as you were flying. You come across as being in it for the money and that is the wrong reason IMHO.
Rant over.
Best of luck
Don't want to make this into a personal dispute, but who are you blaming that a lot of foreigners are working for British airlines?
Unfortunately you have only your own school system and yourself to blame. For these foreigners english is a second language and as such has to be learned. Take for example the Dutch, they start with english lessons at the age of 10 and in many cases have it as a mandatory subject up to the age of 18. So they put a lot of effort in learning the language.
The British (not all!!) drop any foreign language at school as quickly as they can. Then later in life they complain that the world isn't fair to them. Who is there to blame?
While I can partly understand your frustration why don't you instead of posting on this forum make your time usefull and learn another language?
Yes, most company's require you to be fluent but the thruth is slightly different. Lufthansa Cityline (they took lowhoured people) is happy if you make an effort to speak to the language and accept that you will get more proficient when you work/live in Germany. From the people I have spoken to who did the DLR tests they are even available in english!.
The French do indeed require you to be fluent in French. KLM has a fair amount of 'foreigners' working for them who only learned the language after they got the job.
And as Mister Geezer already said when you venture a bit further then the Brest FIR you will hear a lot of British voices with Etihad/Emirates etc. callsigns. So please don't think that the Brits don't go abroad to fly.
To be honest I am a bit disappointed with your attitude. You say the instructing would not serve your ultimate goal. So do you really think that because you have got a fATPL the world owes you a job on a jet or turboprop?
If you really did this job because you were a true pilot then you would accept anything else as long as you were flying. You come across as being in it for the money and that is the wrong reason IMHO.
Rant over.
Best of luck
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Sometimes hours totals and command courses under belts bypass "strict" hiring criteria, that and mates and CV's slid across the right desk by a mate. Not forgetting the fact we work in an industry that tends to fire-fight problems opposed to forward plan for them.
I am embarrassed I don't speak another language, its endemic in our country and to be fair it was my least favourite subject at school, maybe if it had started when I was 3/4 opposed to 11 things would be different.
I never suggested getting a living on a plate however I see and have experienced evidence of barriers put in my way to employment that are or cannot be mirrored here in the UK. Maybe I should buy a sniper rifle and hang about outside the Luton "Outback" pub, or find out which nightclub the Thomsonfly CP's daughter goes to and work the charm.
One of the reasons I like aviation is the international aspect of the job and colleagues. I don't advocate a nationalistic attitude. In a lot of other countries employers have to justify why they are hiring foreigners opposed to nationals. Maybe if we weren't too concerned about offending in the UK it could be looked at on a yearly basis.
Many pilots currently working here have the best of two worlds, I'm saying that for many British pilots currently in the UK without work we have less than one to compete with.
I agree in the past 30 years many of our own ranks have eroded our profession, why? Because we do an aspirational job, that has/had nice benefits and salary. There is the kudos and the office view and the desire to do it sometimes has got in the common good. Unfortunately executives and the accountants who run airlines know this and use it to their advantage.
I see what happened with Easy and BMI assimilating some crew as something that had to be done, however Thomas Cook bringing Canadians over for the summer and sending UK crew over for the winter rests slightly less easy for me. I can see how by doing so ensures year round employment for someone opposed to 7 months on 5 months off as some charter companies are offering.
I think the main aim at present is to get a job, keep the head down and make sure you have enough time served as when the next blip happens, you are safe due to your position in the seniority list. As to getting that job, for the reasons outlined in my 3 lengthy posts its as tough as those 4 big red balls obstacle in Wipeout
I am embarrassed I don't speak another language, its endemic in our country and to be fair it was my least favourite subject at school, maybe if it had started when I was 3/4 opposed to 11 things would be different.
I never suggested getting a living on a plate however I see and have experienced evidence of barriers put in my way to employment that are or cannot be mirrored here in the UK. Maybe I should buy a sniper rifle and hang about outside the Luton "Outback" pub, or find out which nightclub the Thomsonfly CP's daughter goes to and work the charm.
One of the reasons I like aviation is the international aspect of the job and colleagues. I don't advocate a nationalistic attitude. In a lot of other countries employers have to justify why they are hiring foreigners opposed to nationals. Maybe if we weren't too concerned about offending in the UK it could be looked at on a yearly basis.
Many pilots currently working here have the best of two worlds, I'm saying that for many British pilots currently in the UK without work we have less than one to compete with.
I agree in the past 30 years many of our own ranks have eroded our profession, why? Because we do an aspirational job, that has/had nice benefits and salary. There is the kudos and the office view and the desire to do it sometimes has got in the common good. Unfortunately executives and the accountants who run airlines know this and use it to their advantage.
I see what happened with Easy and BMI assimilating some crew as something that had to be done, however Thomas Cook bringing Canadians over for the summer and sending UK crew over for the winter rests slightly less easy for me. I can see how by doing so ensures year round employment for someone opposed to 7 months on 5 months off as some charter companies are offering.
I think the main aim at present is to get a job, keep the head down and make sure you have enough time served as when the next blip happens, you are safe due to your position in the seniority list. As to getting that job, for the reasons outlined in my 3 lengthy posts its as tough as those 4 big red balls obstacle in Wipeout
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Give him a break, heīs obviously hurting a bit here,
there are few certainties in aviation but here are some:
1.there will always be foreign pilots in UK, just as there will always be Uk pilots abroad.
2.Paying for a TR is here to stay
3.agencies will always take experinced TR pilots well ahead of newbies
4. it is extremely hard to get job with a basic licence.
And I canīt believe people are still quoting twaddle about 'true pilots' not being in it for the money - noone in their right minds gets into flying for money because there isnīt much, however alot of 'true pilots' have kids, mortgages etc so I won't do it for free.
Although yesterday morning I might have done for the views of the glaciers....
there are few certainties in aviation but here are some:
1.there will always be foreign pilots in UK, just as there will always be Uk pilots abroad.
2.Paying for a TR is here to stay
3.agencies will always take experinced TR pilots well ahead of newbies
4. it is extremely hard to get job with a basic licence.
And I canīt believe people are still quoting twaddle about 'true pilots' not being in it for the money - noone in their right minds gets into flying for money because there isnīt much, however alot of 'true pilots' have kids, mortgages etc so I won't do it for free.
Although yesterday morning I might have done for the views of the glaciers....
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CEJM I am saying that the UK market has the biggest pool available to it from any other western nation. 350 EU citizens (roughly same as US) plus the children and grandchildren of emigrators (lots of Commonwealth).
I've listened to people like you talk about the "love of aviation", yes I had that initially, "find a job thats your hobby and you will never work another day in your life". Flying over the alps at 350 or seeing Kilimanjaro at sunrise reinforce that, however all the bull**** that goes along with this job at the start does tend to eat away at you a little.
I look at it now pragmaticly, we have over capacity, we have lots of experienced people out there, lot of factors affecting the sustainability (oil, epidemics, terrorism, taxes), I have a mortgage to pay, a girl I want to settle down with, but know I would accept Air ToraBora if it came along. So please don't question my love of aviation and please don't suggest I have to live the life of a Commando comic hero to justify opting for this career.
Also you find lots of Brits abroad in the Middle East as when a government funds a tourist industry and global hub airlines through oil money with rapid expansion then you need to bring in trained professionals, 1 aircraft every 2 months is unsubstainable for the UAE which has an indigenous population of 300,000 (same as Belfast). Also you'll find that region of the world is one of the only who employ non nationals at ATC'ers. In the UK we can sustain our own market with our own talent. I also added in the original post that many UK pilots choose to abroad for work.
Finally, it is by no means manditory that everyone has to work as a FI, you feel it is because no doubt that was your route. I identified my route through this career objectively, I could earn more, provide for my loved ones, do something I enjoy, keep the bank manager from the door and be better served by following my route from PPL to flying a jet. I don't apologise for it, why should I?
I've listened to people like you talk about the "love of aviation", yes I had that initially, "find a job thats your hobby and you will never work another day in your life". Flying over the alps at 350 or seeing Kilimanjaro at sunrise reinforce that, however all the bull**** that goes along with this job at the start does tend to eat away at you a little.
I look at it now pragmaticly, we have over capacity, we have lots of experienced people out there, lot of factors affecting the sustainability (oil, epidemics, terrorism, taxes), I have a mortgage to pay, a girl I want to settle down with, but know I would accept Air ToraBora if it came along. So please don't question my love of aviation and please don't suggest I have to live the life of a Commando comic hero to justify opting for this career.
Also you find lots of Brits abroad in the Middle East as when a government funds a tourist industry and global hub airlines through oil money with rapid expansion then you need to bring in trained professionals, 1 aircraft every 2 months is unsubstainable for the UAE which has an indigenous population of 300,000 (same as Belfast). Also you'll find that region of the world is one of the only who employ non nationals at ATC'ers. In the UK we can sustain our own market with our own talent. I also added in the original post that many UK pilots choose to abroad for work.
Finally, it is by no means manditory that everyone has to work as a FI, you feel it is because no doubt that was your route. I identified my route through this career objectively, I could earn more, provide for my loved ones, do something I enjoy, keep the bank manager from the door and be better served by following my route from PPL to flying a jet. I don't apologise for it, why should I?