The Job Front - Note to the Unions, Chief Pilots, Agencies and Fellow Pilots
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dreamshiner,
First of all I have not done the FI route. But my personal route doesn't matter.
What I was trying to say is that the guys/girls who went straight into the rh seat of jet have been very fortunate. While we had some very good years were this happened alot, we also had years prior to that were people had to start of the bottom of the ladder.
With the 'true pilot' I mean to say that from your posts it seems that you will only go for a job on a TP or Jet. However in the current climate I would seriously consider looking at other options. Don't forget that new 'pilots' are being released by the flight schools every day. So when the sector picks up again there is money to made for the likes of Ryanair in having these guys/girls pay for a typerating etc. You know the story.
Anything flying will give you more experience and might give you a slight advantage over your competition when the market picks up. But as I said you come across as not willing to do this.
And yes we all do this job so that we can pay for our lifestyle, myself included. However in the current climate the jobs on a TP or Jet are few and far between and you will have to start looking at other options.
As for the b/s that comes with the job you could have seen that coming. You now have 700 hours so I take it that you didn't start that long ago so the b/s was already there.
Don't agree with you that the ME is the only region which employs non-nationals as ATC'ers. There are enough American/Aussie/British voices on the airwaves in other parts of the world.
CEJM
First of all I have not done the FI route. But my personal route doesn't matter.
What I was trying to say is that the guys/girls who went straight into the rh seat of jet have been very fortunate. While we had some very good years were this happened alot, we also had years prior to that were people had to start of the bottom of the ladder.
With the 'true pilot' I mean to say that from your posts it seems that you will only go for a job on a TP or Jet. However in the current climate I would seriously consider looking at other options. Don't forget that new 'pilots' are being released by the flight schools every day. So when the sector picks up again there is money to made for the likes of Ryanair in having these guys/girls pay for a typerating etc. You know the story.
Anything flying will give you more experience and might give you a slight advantage over your competition when the market picks up. But as I said you come across as not willing to do this.
And yes we all do this job so that we can pay for our lifestyle, myself included. However in the current climate the jobs on a TP or Jet are few and far between and you will have to start looking at other options.
As for the b/s that comes with the job you could have seen that coming. You now have 700 hours so I take it that you didn't start that long ago so the b/s was already there.
Don't agree with you that the ME is the only region which employs non-nationals as ATC'ers. There are enough American/Aussie/British voices on the airwaves in other parts of the world.
CEJM
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Samsonite Avenue
Posts: 1,538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've listened to people like you talk about the "love of aviation", yes I had that initially, "find a job thats your hobby and you will never work another day in your life". Flying over the alps at 350 or seeing Kilimanjaro at sunrise reinforce that, however all the bull**** that goes along with this job at the start does tend to eat away at you a little.
Finally, it is by no means manditory that everyone has to work as a FI, you feel it is because no doubt that was your route. I identified my route through this career objectively, I could earn more, provide for my loved ones, do something I enjoy, keep the bank manager from the door and be better served by following my route from PPL to flying a jet. I don't apologise for it, why should I?
Don't rule anything out when your starting off in this career.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In the clouds above
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've got 700 hours on type and just under 1400 total time. So am maybe a little longer in the tooth than you maybe think.
Why do so many assume the natural progression is FI after CPL/IR? I knew it wasn't for me, mainly because I didn't think my character was suited to it. However as pointed out before, I don't have a SE CPL and I don't have the 10k to get me the ratings.
I am unsure how people assume I am looking for a shortcut, I'm looking for the best method to a secure job based on my requirements and personal circumstances.
Surprised nobody has brought up the issues I brought up about CP's, its mainly been about my perceived laziness, apathy, lack of languages or Daily Mail attitude to immigration.
Why do so many assume the natural progression is FI after CPL/IR? I knew it wasn't for me, mainly because I didn't think my character was suited to it. However as pointed out before, I don't have a SE CPL and I don't have the 10k to get me the ratings.
I am unsure how people assume I am looking for a shortcut, I'm looking for the best method to a secure job based on my requirements and personal circumstances.
Surprised nobody has brought up the issues I brought up about CP's, its mainly been about my perceived laziness, apathy, lack of languages or Daily Mail attitude to immigration.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
Without wishing to seem uncaring or unnecessarily critical, I think there is a certain amount of navel gazing going on here. Airlines, particularly at the moment and will again when the price of fuel rockets once more, have bigger problems to come to terms with than the ethics of employing locals. When was the last time you chose the supermarket for your week's groceries based on the nationality of the employees? I suspect you shop where it is convenient and cost effective for you, why expect anything different from airlines?
Globalisation has happened, there is no going back. Workforces are mobile at an unprecedented level. Indeed this workforce mobility has, if anything, been extremely positive for the airlines as a source of business. There is nothing to be gained by applying protectionist employment policies.
Do taxi firms exist for the purpose of providing jobs to people who like driving cars around? There is clearly a loss of perspective here. Give yourself a break from scouring the websites daily. Have you considered working as cc until a suitable opportunity arises?
sr
Globalisation has happened, there is no going back. Workforces are mobile at an unprecedented level. Indeed this workforce mobility has, if anything, been extremely positive for the airlines as a source of business. There is nothing to be gained by applying protectionist employment policies.
give us the opportunity to have the dignity of working in a job we've aspired to.
sr
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While I understand your frustration you appear to be lacking a basic understanding.
Those that consider instructing, air taxi... are the ones that had to do it before moving on to something bigger (paycheck, not aiplane), have not moved on, or are perfectly happy doing what they are doing.
If a person has the right to work in a location, to deny that person that right based purely on their nationality is discrimination. I have only one passport and it is not UK or European, yet I make a tiny living at T5 because I have the right to work there.
Chief Pilots - Chief pilots at smaller companies and recruiting teams at larger companies are only interested in one thing: hiring a pilot that can be trained under the current training system with no or little additional training needed. With a glut of suitable applicants the process can be fine tuned further to company requirements such as the hoop jumping at BA or EZ/CTC.
Agencies - Agencies have to provide a contractor that can do the job that was contracted. If they supply someone who cannot do the work, they do not get paid and may even have to reimburse some training costs to the client. Select a 10,000 hour turbo guy for a 747 job? I wouldn't do it with a tray full of guys with time and type.
BALPA - Love them, hate them, fall somewhere in between... whatever. You will love them one minute and hate them the next. One thing is certain, however, they will not/cannot take on a fight they knowingly will not win.
Flying Clubs - No idea what you're on about, really, but sounds reasonable.
Companies selling hour packages - Good argument, well presented.
Everthing above was true when I trained and I'm willing to bet it was all true when you began your training. With this said, you either knew what you were getting yourself in for or failed to do proper research. So, I'm afraid, if it's sypmathy you're looking for it's in the dictionary between sh.....
Once a week is enough to browse employment sites. In fact, once a month at the moment is probably excessive. Go live your life fella.
I wish you the bes of luck and, with any luck, you can have my seat soon (or, if you want to grown out your hair a bit, talk with a funny accent and type yourself on an airbus you can use my ID and go fly my sectors. I'll only charge you £10/hour, bargain, really).
Cheers
Buter
Those that consider instructing, air taxi... are the ones that had to do it before moving on to something bigger (paycheck, not aiplane), have not moved on, or are perfectly happy doing what they are doing.
If a person has the right to work in a location, to deny that person that right based purely on their nationality is discrimination. I have only one passport and it is not UK or European, yet I make a tiny living at T5 because I have the right to work there.
Chief Pilots - Chief pilots at smaller companies and recruiting teams at larger companies are only interested in one thing: hiring a pilot that can be trained under the current training system with no or little additional training needed. With a glut of suitable applicants the process can be fine tuned further to company requirements such as the hoop jumping at BA or EZ/CTC.
Agencies - Agencies have to provide a contractor that can do the job that was contracted. If they supply someone who cannot do the work, they do not get paid and may even have to reimburse some training costs to the client. Select a 10,000 hour turbo guy for a 747 job? I wouldn't do it with a tray full of guys with time and type.
BALPA - Love them, hate them, fall somewhere in between... whatever. You will love them one minute and hate them the next. One thing is certain, however, they will not/cannot take on a fight they knowingly will not win.
Flying Clubs - No idea what you're on about, really, but sounds reasonable.
Companies selling hour packages - Good argument, well presented.
Everthing above was true when I trained and I'm willing to bet it was all true when you began your training. With this said, you either knew what you were getting yourself in for or failed to do proper research. So, I'm afraid, if it's sypmathy you're looking for it's in the dictionary between sh.....
Once a week is enough to browse employment sites. In fact, once a month at the moment is probably excessive. Go live your life fella.
I wish you the bes of luck and, with any luck, you can have my seat soon (or, if you want to grown out your hair a bit, talk with a funny accent and type yourself on an airbus you can use my ID and go fly my sectors. I'll only charge you £10/hour, bargain, really).
Cheers
Buter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hair growth
Buter,
I reckon it'll be quicker for me to wait for an upturn in the economy and draining of all the hold pools in the world than to try and get my hair like yours!
I reckon it'll be quicker for me to wait for an upturn in the economy and draining of all the hold pools in the world than to try and get my hair like yours!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is the UK is too soft on letting anyone through the floodgates.
If it took a US approach to immigration there would be a lot more British jobs for Brits.
If it took a US approach to immigration there would be a lot more British jobs for Brits.
What you are suggesting would isolate UK and make it impossible to be a part of EU.
I do agree though with a lot of posters here that its frustrating at times when applying for jobs in "main land" Europe and being turned down due to lack of fluency in the local language. Speaking reasonable German I was even approached by a large German corporate operator, for a position as Captain on a large cabin bizjet, only to be turned down as they thought my German was not good enough to pass the selection process which was all in German. This is nothing else but protectionism and I see it all the time, especially in the countries with Latin based languages and Germany. This "policy" goes against the whole idea with EU but will continue until EU passes laws on the matter.........ie NEVER.
CP
Yes we have stuff up to King Air size doing air ambulance work, seneca's delivering mail cheques, and various stuff kicking about the Scottish Islands
To put things in proportion:
There is approximately 8300 CPL/ATPL's licenced in New Zealand which is about 0.2% of the population.
The figures I have show the UK population is about 60,000,000 so on a proportion basis using 0.2 % there should be about 120,000 CPL/ATPL's in the UK.
The only data I can find on UK pilot numbers is from about 9 years ago and at that time there was approximately 15,000 CPL/ATPL's which equates to 0.025 %. I don't expect things will have changed dramatically in that time. Per head of population there is eight times the number of pilots in New Zealand compared to the UK.
My point is "The grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence". Perhaps in this case that may not be so.
Oh, one more thing, it's pretty well unheard of here for anyone with less than a couple of thousand hours to get a job on a jet in many cases you would need 500 to 1000, usually more, for a turbo prop job.
Last edited by 27/09; 24th Jul 2009 at 11:31.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In the clouds above
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
14.2x more population in the UK according to Wikipedia
114 aircraft listed on PPJN means UK equivalent is 1,620. Pretty sure there aren't that many here.
Not really that green here. However I got your back up, I should have just left it at Aus and US. The geographical position of NZ being pretty remote leds itself to a higher proportion of pilots, same as Iceland where I've flown too.
What I'm advocating that the UK looks after its nationals as your government and airline companies obviously do.
You just upset with me because your losing the Ashes at present
114 aircraft listed on PPJN means UK equivalent is 1,620. Pretty sure there aren't that many here.
Not really that green here. However I got your back up, I should have just left it at Aus and US. The geographical position of NZ being pretty remote leds itself to a higher proportion of pilots, same as Iceland where I've flown too.
What I'm advocating that the UK looks after its nationals as your government and airline companies obviously do.
You just upset with me because your losing the Ashes at present
Ho Hum, you're new to the industry (yes I read the 1400 hrs bit) so you really don't know what you are talking about, but:
I had to pay the £2000, and have the family connections, and live here for six years.
have you tried? Really?
Rubbish. I worked with more foreign born citizens (yes, mostly British) in Australia, than I have seen Commonwealth citizens here in the UK.
No, - but that very population density is what allows sub-1000 hour pilots into 737s here. In Australia there simply isn't a jet service between domestic cities as there is here, because the population density doesn't allow it.
As in Australia, or New Zealand.
The simple fact is that you have had the misfortune to gain your qualifications during an industry downturn - probably the first you have seen. It happens to all of us, in all countries - and it isn't the fault of people born in other countries flying here as there are more UK pilots flying away (Middle East and Far East and Australasia) than there are Arabs, Chinese or Australasians flying here.
£2,000 for the visa and convert the licence. The only difference is I have no parents or grandparents who have emigrated the other way. Also if I wish to get an Australian passport, I have to live there permanently for 3 years first.
I am by no means having a go at these people Redsnail, I would go the opposite way if Australia was as open to me.
You must however agree that the UK is accessible for a great number of pilots, however us Brits don't have the same opportunities in other countries.
The second issue relates to the particular geography of the British Isles. As a result of the proximity of the major cities and the high urban density, there are not the same requirements on general aviation as there are in countries that are vast such as the US or Aus / NZ.
I also accept that 250 hour jet pilots are/were common in Europe alone, The US for example (because I know it well) looks for you to have approx. 2,000-2,500 hours before even entertaining it.
The simple fact is that you have had the misfortune to gain your qualifications during an industry downturn - probably the first you have seen. It happens to all of us, in all countries - and it isn't the fault of people born in other countries flying here as there are more UK pilots flying away (Middle East and Far East and Australasia) than there are Arabs, Chinese or Australasians flying here.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I reckon it'll be quicker for me to wait for an upturn in the economy and draining of all the hold pools in the world than to try and get my hair like yours!
Buter
Dreamshiner
Apologies if you thought I inferrred it was "green" where you are, I don't think it's green anywhere at present I was making the point that it might not be any better outside of your backyard.
No you haven't got my back up, it's just that you made generalisations that are not substantiated by facts. I often see these sorts of statements however in your case you gave me the opportunity to comment when you made a statement about New Zealand that I had facts to refute. I see someone else, Checkboard, has also refuted your generalisations about Australia
I have a great deal of sympathy for you, and people like you, but as Checkboard points out your predicament is to do with the current state of world economics and the timing of your entry into the aviation game. I have a job (some might say a fairly reasonable job) in aviation. Previous downturns have greatly affect my progression to this point and this current one will also gravely affect my future aspirations. There's is no point in crying into my cornies over this I have to accept things and get on with life.
Err NO! Not true, where did you get this gem from. There are plenty of foreign nationals flying over here, a large portion of these are from the UK. There is no protectionism here. I can assure you it is much easier for some one to immigrate to New Zealand from the UK than it is to go the other way.
You complain about paying 2000 quid for the Visa and to convert your licence. Have you ever wondered what it costs to convert a foreign ICAO licence in the UK? Do search on here, it might open your eyes. This on it's own is a very effective form of protectionism.
One last thing, New Zealand and Australia are two separate countries, have a look on an Atlas. New Zealand isn't playing in the Ashes series. That series is played for between Australia and England
Cheers
Apologies if you thought I inferrred it was "green" where you are, I don't think it's green anywhere at present I was making the point that it might not be any better outside of your backyard.
No you haven't got my back up, it's just that you made generalisations that are not substantiated by facts. I often see these sorts of statements however in your case you gave me the opportunity to comment when you made a statement about New Zealand that I had facts to refute. I see someone else, Checkboard, has also refuted your generalisations about Australia
I have a great deal of sympathy for you, and people like you, but as Checkboard points out your predicament is to do with the current state of world economics and the timing of your entry into the aviation game. I have a job (some might say a fairly reasonable job) in aviation. Previous downturns have greatly affect my progression to this point and this current one will also gravely affect my future aspirations. There's is no point in crying into my cornies over this I have to accept things and get on with life.
What I'm advocating that the UK looks after its nationals as your government and airline companies obviously do.
You complain about paying 2000 quid for the Visa and to convert your licence. Have you ever wondered what it costs to convert a foreign ICAO licence in the UK? Do search on here, it might open your eyes. This on it's own is a very effective form of protectionism.
One last thing, New Zealand and Australia are two separate countries, have a look on an Atlas. New Zealand isn't playing in the Ashes series. That series is played for between Australia and England
Cheers
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A laser guided drone
Posts: 598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i appreciate your frustration dreamshiner, we've all been there.remember things can change.im interested in you paying for a heavy jet tr ,if i read that correctly.did you honestly think that with 200 hrs and a cpl meir that was going to be a good idea.surely not, im not sure the market was ever that good.
as regards your attitude to instructing, that i can understand. i think your not looking at the bigger picture.i instructed, didnt particularly enjoy it but i did learn alot. it lead also to me getting a jet job.
your attitude to immigration needs to improve i'd suggest.most airlines are multi cultural now and may not appreciate your views
one thing that did come across it that you seem to have this attitude that someone owes you a job.no one owes you a job.your the same as every other cpl meir.just another cv.you need a huge amount of luck to get a job, i hope yours comes soon for you.
i kind of agree with the modular v integrated argument purely as i was modular!!as you said yourself these guys are a proven quantity, whereas you arent.
you are correct about the caa, absolutely useless much similar to the iaa for that matter.couldnt run a bath
as regards your attitude to instructing, that i can understand. i think your not looking at the bigger picture.i instructed, didnt particularly enjoy it but i did learn alot. it lead also to me getting a jet job.
your attitude to immigration needs to improve i'd suggest.most airlines are multi cultural now and may not appreciate your views
one thing that did come across it that you seem to have this attitude that someone owes you a job.no one owes you a job.your the same as every other cpl meir.just another cv.you need a huge amount of luck to get a job, i hope yours comes soon for you.
i kind of agree with the modular v integrated argument purely as i was modular!!as you said yourself these guys are a proven quantity, whereas you arent.
you are correct about the caa, absolutely useless much similar to the iaa for that matter.couldnt run a bath
Interesting thread this......I'm not sure what could be done to improve things. i suspect the "right" solution is, as ever, dependant on an individuals personal perspective, which is shaped by their circumstances, background and experience.
Personally speaking i'm not one of those people who is prepared to crawl a mile over broken glass in the pursuit of another flying hour. I never have been. I got into flying because i wanted to travel, have a lot of variety in my work and i'm interested in the subject knowledge. I certainly did not become a professional pilot because i "love flying"...In fact the thought of ever being an FI, with endless circuits/exercises in a heap of s**t cessna or piper makes me feel ill. Of course there are those who will think i'm not a "proper" pilot for thinking this way. Well, i have FAA and UK/Euro ATPL's and nearly 3000hrs on jets, so whatever the prop jockey brigade think, i just don't care anymore. I'm lucky enough to have a job at the moment (albeit a somewhat part time one!) I'm first to admit i got into corporate flying by chance, unfortunately in flying thats often the way it goes, you are in the right place at the right time or you know somebody etc etc.
I guess all that i'm trying to say is that we are all individuals, have to make our own choices and we all have to work with what we've got and what opportunities are available to us at any given time. To what extent an individual should "whore" themselves to get on in the modern job market is solely up to them. If they want to suffer for their art thats fine, if they stand back and say "no way thats not for me" then thats fine as well.
Personally speaking i'm not one of those people who is prepared to crawl a mile over broken glass in the pursuit of another flying hour. I never have been. I got into flying because i wanted to travel, have a lot of variety in my work and i'm interested in the subject knowledge. I certainly did not become a professional pilot because i "love flying"...In fact the thought of ever being an FI, with endless circuits/exercises in a heap of s**t cessna or piper makes me feel ill. Of course there are those who will think i'm not a "proper" pilot for thinking this way. Well, i have FAA and UK/Euro ATPL's and nearly 3000hrs on jets, so whatever the prop jockey brigade think, i just don't care anymore. I'm lucky enough to have a job at the moment (albeit a somewhat part time one!) I'm first to admit i got into corporate flying by chance, unfortunately in flying thats often the way it goes, you are in the right place at the right time or you know somebody etc etc.
I guess all that i'm trying to say is that we are all individuals, have to make our own choices and we all have to work with what we've got and what opportunities are available to us at any given time. To what extent an individual should "whore" themselves to get on in the modern job market is solely up to them. If they want to suffer for their art thats fine, if they stand back and say "no way thats not for me" then thats fine as well.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most airlines employ people who they believe will in a reasonable amount of time be suitable for promotion to Captain and/or assume a position of responsibility and be good for the company.
Short of the BNP having a need of a private jet, I can not see anything here that would lead me to employ such a person as a pilot (single or multicrew).
Perhaps we should be thankful that we do not share and hopefully will never share our working space with such a person.
I truly hope that the sentiments expressed in the initial and following posts are very much in jest!
Regards,
DFC
Short of the BNP having a need of a private jet, I can not see anything here that would lead me to employ such a person as a pilot (single or multicrew).
Perhaps we should be thankful that we do not share and hopefully will never share our working space with such a person.
I truly hope that the sentiments expressed in the initial and following posts are very much in jest!
Regards,
DFC
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In the clouds above
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I expressed a notion that newly or recently qualified British pilots have one of the toughest routes to a job in my humble opinion, experience and in the experience of my contemporaries. It appears to me that this thread has been picked up by sensitive antipodeans, those currently employed and relatively safe and the political correctness police.
There were a number of issues in the original email, some of which have not even been discussed. And yes, on occasion I do through a little jape into the mix.
Also the heavy jet rating I have is a joint one with a single isle aircraft. When I undertook my training the world was a different place and the TR course prior to mine, everyone had a guaranteed job 2 weeks in.
I pointed out what I think is a real problem for the UK industry unless its happy to import and export. I think there will always be people coming through because we do an aspirational job and we live in a relatively affluent country. But its not a level playing field, why should it be so outrageous to suggest that something could be done to redress the balance.
Yes that part of aviation and part of the attraction. because I suggested that BALPA try to do something about this (granted not BA related so they might be in a bit of a TISWAS as what to do).
DFC,
Suggesting that I would be lucky for a job with Air BNP then shows a lack of understanding in me as a person and quite offensive (all quite to common on PPRuNe).
There were a number of issues in the original email, some of which have not even been discussed. And yes, on occasion I do through a little jape into the mix.
Also the heavy jet rating I have is a joint one with a single isle aircraft. When I undertook my training the world was a different place and the TR course prior to mine, everyone had a guaranteed job 2 weeks in.
I pointed out what I think is a real problem for the UK industry unless its happy to import and export. I think there will always be people coming through because we do an aspirational job and we live in a relatively affluent country. But its not a level playing field, why should it be so outrageous to suggest that something could be done to redress the balance.
Yes that part of aviation and part of the attraction. because I suggested that BALPA try to do something about this (granted not BA related so they might be in a bit of a TISWAS as what to do).
DFC,
Suggesting that I would be lucky for a job with Air BNP then shows a lack of understanding in me as a person and quite offensive (all quite to common on PPRuNe).
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I expressed a notion that newly or recently qualified British pilots have one of the toughest routes to a job in my humble opinion
You've found that it's not as easy as the glossy brochures suggested.
Finding the first and often second job in aviation is hard work. Not every one will make it.
I got my first job in the UK because a British born guy didn't want it.
