RYANAIR thoughts

[Bruce Wayne]

Leo,

A very well mannered and friendly response to flyingstig, I for one know he will appreciate that response.

Despite that someone will manage to demean or criticise the response and cite it as evidence that MOL/FR is the root cause of all evil in the world, interplanetary trajectory, the economic meltdown and the reason behind the extinction of the dodo!

[al446]

Don't be silly Bruce, the dodo was down to someone else.

[redsnail]

IPF does exist in the UK. It comes under IPA

IPA is not a union, however, IPF is.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Flyingstig - The idea that potential BALPA recognition stopped your job application being successful is simply scaremongering tactics and has no rational basis. Ryanair will employ exactly the number of pilots it needs - no more and no less. BALPA have no part in that. These type of conspiracy theories are up there with the Americans not landing on the moon or aliens landing at Roswell. You can choose to believe the conspiracies, but 'the truth is out there' if you want to know it. Best of luck in the future.

[al446]

Thank you Redsnail, I was quite rushed in looking for this and stand corrected.

Given that all through this thread there has been no mention of it makes me suspicious and thinking that a management troll may be flying kites.

In my reply to the PM I stated that I did not want to be inadvertently advising the 'bad guys'. That is why I posted on here. Personally, I dont give a toss, just think you guys would be better getting organised before the fan gets brownish.

[Sam Crow]

al446

YOu wouldn't be adviseing the bad guys what night-fr8 has said has happened but not at Ryan Air. We have been trying to garner support for balpa for the last two years and a couple of months ago balpa finally approached our management, after an internal balpa ballot, to seek voluntary recognition. After a few delaying tatics by management, they rejected it and balpa started to go down the statuatory route. Last friday the company announced that they had accepted the IPF/A as the exclusive represntative body for negotiations covering all aspects of our employment. Some people see it as a smart move by the company to block balpa representation, and bring a union that is percieved by most as being a light weight. I don't know if the company approached the IPF/A or if a dissaffected employee who doesn't want to pay balpa subs has asked them to approach the company. In any case there are very few crew that are members of the IPA/F I only know one colleague that is a member, where the balpa membership is believed to be well over 70%.

If you have an answer it would be appreciated, I suspect that balpa have/will be inundated with calls over the next few days.

Perhaps the IPA/F is the way forward, If anyone has any experience with them comments good or bad are always welcome.

[T668BFJ]

IPF/A ?? What the hell are you people on about.

I am a UK based RYR pilot and have heard of no such thing at all.

[UK Viking]

Ryanairpilot as well.

http://www.ipapilot.com/ (wwwdotipapilotdotcom)

[al446]

Sam Crow

Given that BALPA has 70% membership I suggest you ask their legal people, it's what you pay for. Any advice given by me would probably be highly inaccurate and would only serve to muddy the waters. Feel free to PM me in anonimity, I copied night_fr8's PM thinking he was a bogey man.

[Bruce Wayne]

Feel free to PM me in anonimity, I copied night_fr8's PM thinking he was a bogey man.

al446

That statement doesn't really inspire confidence does it; Seeing as you posted his 'Private Message' in an open forum, citing the originator of the 'PM' and also included his name as well.

[al446]

Bruce Wayne

Yep, guilty as charged. thought he was a Bogey (or troll, company spiv, management incurscionist, whatever) and, on reflection, still do.

I think that night_fr8 is a troll, as is I think San Crow may be, jury is out. If I am wrong then apologies will be offered but my thinking goes thus -

an airline with 70% BALPA membership goes for recognition, starts the legal process and airline decides it is going to recognise a VERY minority union, certainly less than 70%. Now ask yourself what smells, the airline or the story?

When I got the PM I responded then I looked back through the posts, I began to think nasty thoughts and posted. I still think it is a lie, I have Googled but cant come up with any announcement of agreement anywhere.

For what is worth, I think that any move like this would be illegal and ANY union could screw them in court, possibly fast-track it, and would lead to the airline being put under greater scrutiny than previously. Not a lawyers response but..........

So no more PMs unless you wish to talk about something that is not meant to lead down the garden path please.

I go back to my substantial reply, ask BALPA.

[al446]

Wow, this gets dirtier and dirtier, checked my email and there is one from a guy calling ME management. Wash your mouth out.

To all. I do not work in aviation, have nothing to do with it, I am only pissed off at idiots attributing things to unions that are memories from your parent's days. In short, I look for truth.

If some bozo PMs me with what I think is a concocted story I will post it, as I will the one I got tonight, just cant be bothered right now and sender may wish to think again and apologise before I do so. Is RYR getting so desperate?

[Night_fr8]

al446
I have never been management, I am a Line Pilot with over 18000 hours
As a member of this major cargo airline and a very anti BALPA exponent, through personal experience, I am full of anger at your self rightious response.
You were approached in good faith for advice and posted the contents of a PM which breaks all rules of decency.
Typical I might add of a UNITE dyed in the wool trade unionist, who would sell any one down the river for personal gain and kudos.
You have exposed yourself as someone not to be taken seriously, and my advice to those reading this forum is to take what you say with a large pinch of salt.
The company I work for has a 75% plus BALPA membership with a small proportion in the IPF maybe 12% some of which are also BALPA members.
On Friday the company published on their website that they had recognised the IPF whilst BALPA were about to obtain a vote for recognition, thus scuppering any chance of them becoming the union of choice.
(I happen to think that this was a very astute company move)
I was actively seeking advice.
Your actions were like the communist era of the 50's where there were percieved spies under every bed.
I demand a public apology !!

[eagerbeaver1]

al446 - Why are you sticking your hooter in?

[al446]

eagerbeaver1

Your question is answered in one (or several) of my previous posts as to how I got involved in this thread but, essentially, I was reading alarmist posts stating things that had no basis in truth, misreading the law and dressing (biased) opinion as fact. Several have thanked me for providing clarification. I then got a PM from night_fr8 stating that an airline which had instigated the legal process to recognise BALPA had decided to recognise the IPF, no figures were quoted at the time, and asking if anything could be done about this. I replied in good faith that I had no idea but would look into it. I also added the caveat that I wanted to know who he was as I did not want to be advising the bad guys ie non BALPA. I burn no flame for BALPA but, as a trade unionist, I have no time for renegade unions that act as spoilers for the majority.
I then looked at the sender's previous posts to find that he is very, almost rabidly, anti BALPA and felt that I was being used by the minority interest, or attempted. That is why I posted the PM which has now been removed.

I did state in my reply that I am a steward in Unison, not Unite.

Night_fr8 - You may be as angry as you wish at response. I consider the rules of decency to include non-misrepresentation, no matter how you read your PM it appears to indicate that you feel you have been wronged whereas the opposite seems to be true.
I sold nobody down any river and personal gain and kudos do not interest me, truth, honesty and integrity are better currencies in my view and I did not feel you were dealing in them. I felt an attempt was being made to obtain advice from me that would have been contrary to the stance I have maintained on this thread ie unity of the bargaining unit therefor pro BALPA, especially with 70% membership. The IPF move is divisive.

Given that RYR stooges have tried many ploys on this thread to misinform and influence the debate on this thread I think I am justified in looking at peoples motives, esp those who PM me out of the blue less than candidly. I think I was in this case.

[SAXONBLOKE]

To all. I do not work in aviation, have nothing to do with it.

And yet al446, that doesn't stop you pontificating on a website and thread for aviation professionals. Maybe those 'memories from our parents days' aren't so distant after all.

Night fr8, I wouldn't let those who are full of self righteous self-importance get you annoyed as they aint worth it. By posting your pm, whatever the supposed justification, has just served to prove the type of person you are dealing with.

[al446]

Saxonbloke

I have been consistent in stating that although my background is in aviation, ex RAF, I now have no connection to it other than maintaining a keen interest. However, there is little in UK law to distinguish aviation from any other sector when talking about union recognition, the law applies to all, and that is the subject of this thread. As an active trade unionist of long standing I felt qualified to comment and have explained this several times, read the thread.

Maybe those 'memories from our parents days' aren't so distant after all.

Please explain the relevance of that statement.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Latest BAPLA Newsletter.

and that is the subject of this thread.

No it isn't, al446, it pertains to Ryanair. Certainly the hilariously misguided and poorly led attempt by BLAPA to secure recognition of our pilot corps lends itself to humourous observations of all sorts, however, may I suggest with the greatest of respect that your unionist background has little of relevance to lend itself to this particular discussion, and less still within the context of the working lives of professional pilots, the cares of which this particular website has dedicated itself to. I'm sure you'll find far greater satisfaction of your curious needs elsewhere.

but 'the truth is out there' if you want to know it.

Norman, my dear, I despair. As much as I've enjoyed your misguided observations from the other side of the Orange divide, a location where you seem to enjoy clawing your way to what one presumes is your perception of the moral high ground, I find it extraordinary that you can still hold a candle for BLAPA when, demonstrably, they are a moribund organisation of little use to anyone, save perhaps British Airways and themselves.

Part of me admires your particular brand of blind loyalty gone mad, despite an overabundance of documented facts to the contrary of your allegiance, but reading you is becoming, more and more, like listening to the quibbling of a maiden aunt. Your ham fisted attempts at ingratiating yourself upon our pilots, though, is neither appreciated or admired and one finds one's self growing weary of your blinkered admiration of BLAPA. Very weary.

Perhaps I might offer, for the consideration and enlightenment of all, a closer look at the machinations from deep within BLAPA, the organisation you claim as your heart's own desire, and the one I call as the coterie of gutless windbags and purveyors of self-interested bull**** that I know them to be.

You're looking well, Norman, and I trust appearances are matched in the flesh.

Your pal, Leo.

23rd July 2009
To all Ryanair Members

Dear Member,

• Fighting for pay cuts and job cuts
• Message of support from the Irnanian Electoral Commission
• Campaign update from a Prominent Member
• Second instalment of answers to the 10 irritating questions posed by pesky pilots


Fighting for pay cuts and job cuts.

Following our expert negotiators’ recent successes in winning job and pay
cuts at BA, Virgin, Thomson etc, the campaign for dignified and respectful pay cuts and job losses trundles on. We note that some mischievous types have been trying to play down the success of our pay cut campaign by exaggerating the salaries in other UK airlines. We are glad that our colleague in BALPA Jim McAuslan (General Secretary) has been able to set the record straight in the Sunday Telegraph:

You suggest that BA 737 pilots earn up to £140,000 and work 600 hours. In fact the top salary for a 737 captain is £93,000 and the average 737 pilot will earn a lot less than this. The average hours of our Heathrow-based crews is now creeping towards the legal and safety critical limit of 900 hours with some pilots having to be removed from trips because they have reached the legal safe maximum.
Jim McAuslan
General Secretary, BLAPA
Hayes, Middlesex.

Message of support from the Irnanian Electoral Commission

Salaam my friends! We at the Irnanian Electoral Commission would like to offer our support and brotherly wishes to BAPLA in their campaign to impose their will, eh sorry, I mean to win recognition, in Ryanair. We understand that BAPLA have received petitions from almost all UK bases confirming that Ryanair pilots don’t want recognition or BAPLA interference. We commend BAPLA for their commitment to pushing on with recognition even though it is against the wishes of the people.

Remember that democracy is a wonderful thing when it provides the right
result but when you don’t get the answer you want, sometimes you have to
impose your will. BAPLA should be strong and continue to ignore the will of
Ryanair’s pilots since the Guardian Council at BAPLA know what is best for
Ryanair pilots.

Campaign Update from Dick*, a Prominent Member

Yes, I am a prominent member. I am proud to be a prominent member. You
may not want me to stick my head out but I don’t care, I’m going to do it
anyway. Sometimes its hard to maintain your dignity and respect when you’re a prominent member on display but I don’t care. My colleagues would say to me (if they knew who I was), “what will recognition do for me” or “how will BAPLA get my 5/4 back” and I say, that doesn’t matter – the important thing is maintaining your dignity and respect when you’re a prominent member. If you are interested in becoming a prominent member you should contact BAPLA head office which is full of them.

* names have been changed to protect the incoherent.


United in the Interests of British Airways Pilots

Second instalment of the 10 questions posed by irritating pilots
We’re now so sick of pesky pilots asking us simple questions that we’ve
set out the not-so-straight answers to the remaining five questions below.
Last week we answered the first five questions and we thought that would
get pilots off our backs but you Ryanair pilots are a persistent bunch so
we’ve had to do some work again this week to answer questions six to ten.
It’s going to take a lot of lunches to make up for this.

6. If Ryanair freezes all growth in the UK what can BAPLA do to stop
redundancies, get FOs promoted or get you transferred out of the
UK?

Nothing. Nada. Not a sausage. Capische? Look, we’re only human so
please don’t expect us to change commercial realities. However, in an
extraordinary gesture of solidarity we will be using some of our colossal
£500,000 lunch, travel and entertainment budget to organise a summer
picnic for redundant pilots. Any of you made redundant will be able to meet
your redundant colleagues from BA, Virgin etc and we can all reminisce
about the glory days of aviation and despair at how the unwashed masses
have ruined it for us by demanding lower fares and an end to rip-off
monopolies. The picnic will be organised as soon as we can find a venue
big enough to hold the 1,000+ airline staff who have been made redundant
recently at BALPA recognised airlines.

7. Why would you allow a BA union anywhere near negotiating for
you when they have already agreed the following loser deals:
• 150 pilot redundancies at BA – delivered with “dignity and respect”
• 600 redundancies at Virgin – delivered with “dignity and respect”
• Pay cuts of 5% at Thomson – delivered with “dignity and respect”
• Unpaid leave at EZY– delivered with “dignity and respect”
• 3% pay cut at BA– delivered with “dignity and respect”

Can’t you see that the answer is in the question? Remember that pilots are
BAPLA and BAPLA are the pilots so with all these job cuts we need to
recruit more Ryanair pilots to fund BAPLA. Last year we spent £477,000 on
lunches, travel and entertainment, £410,000 on conferences and affiliation
fees and a whopping £615,000 on pension contributions for BAPLA
employees. Someone needs to fund this lifestyle and since pilots are
BAPLA and BAPLA are the pilots it’s only fair that we raise membership
levels in Ryanair to pay for our conferences, lunches and pensions.

8. How long does Barefaced Terry think the average negotiation
meeting with Ryanair will last – 5 minutes, 5 hours or 5 days. Answers
on a postcard please.

Eh, can we see those postcards?

9. When BAPLA last met Ryanair management in Feb 2003 during the
takeover of Buzz – what did BAPLA achieve with their expert
negotiators, their lawyers and their dignity and respect?

BAPLA wrote to management in Buzz three years ago and they haven’t
replied yet leaving us with no option but to go for an all out strike in Buzz.

10. Why did the 2001 BAPLA recognition campaign fail and why did
the recent 3 year IALPA campaign also fail in Ireland?

Was it because we didn’t have a catchy slogan about “dignity and respect”?
No? Eh, actually we can’t answer that because we’re.....

OUT TO LUNCH

“Lunch before litigation..
...it’s good to talk”
“pensions before pilots”


From BLAPA'S latest published accounts:

• £615,000 spent last year on pensions
for BAPLA employees which is a
modest 26% of salary (nothing like
feathering your own nest for added
comfort!)

• £410,000 spent last year on
conferences and affiliation fees (yes, it
really is good to talk!)

• £477,000 spent on travel, lunches and
entertainment (yum yum, lunch before
litigation!), with just

• £191,000 spent on legal fees
defending pilots (uurgh, boooring).

That's a whopping 11.28% of expenditure in doing what they promise to do by way of looking after the interest of pilots they claim to represent, ladies and gentlemen, or in other words, BLAPA are only good for 11.28% of what you pay them.

When you see that they spend 64.5% of their expenditure on feathering their own nests with sumptuous final salary pension schemes, and lunches out for da boys, I think it plain enough to see where their real interests are.

Dignity and Respect?

Pish and Pshaw.

[al446]

Leo with the hump

This is an axcerpt from the post that kicked the whole thread off.

Bottomline is that the majority of the guys are not really happy with how things are going in RYR and this BALPA recognition initiative is just a way to oppose a stubborn management that never ever asks your opinion about anything and just makes decisions that people have to accept without having any right to speak up.

So

However, there is little in UK law to distinguish aviation from any other sector when talking about union recognition, the law applies to all, and that is the subject of this thread.

Is totally in keeping with the thread, it appears to be others who have tried to hijack it.

your unionist background has little of relevance to lend itself to this particular discussion

What makes you think I am a Unionist? Wrong noun mate, I suggest a little more tonic and less gin as you compound this in your next para

As much as I've enjoyed your misguided observations from the other side of the Orange divide

I don't mind countering argument if needed but to attribute me with political thoughts that I have never even considered and, indeed, find abhorrent is not only to insult me but underlines your total lack of argumentative reasoning. FYI I am a TRADE Unionist, please do not confuse it, you could get in deep doo doo if in Belfast. And I have never been called Norman (where did he get that one).

I am sorry to say that I didn't make it past the para stating

BLAPA, the organisation you claim as your heart's own desire

My views in that direction have been posted and if you choose to ignore them that is up to you, it only serves to demonstrate that not only do you post in total ignorance but that your attempts at comedy/satire are based on a false premise. That turns the author from comedian into clown. Next time try irony, it's easier.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Were you to read the contributions of others, al446, rather than your own and the feeble responses to them, you would recognise as other PILOTS have done, that my reference in the second quote of my last post and all that follows from it, was to Norman Stanley Fletcher, a pilot.

I suggest a little more tonic and less gin as you compound this in your next para

Projection is such a third rate method of attack, al446. For the record, I despise gin. It reeks of failure and regret. Rather like yourself. Farewell friend.