On strike with Ryanair!
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Cosmiccomet,
You obviously did your research before applying to Ryanair didn't you? You think they would let you have a free type rating because you fly a DC10? You would probley take as long to train as a 250hr cadet from Oxford. Looks as if you wasted your own time there hot rod.
You obviously did your research before applying to Ryanair didn't you? You think they would let you have a free type rating because you fly a DC10? You would probley take as long to train as a 250hr cadet from Oxford. Looks as if you wasted your own time there hot rod.
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UK Viking said:
My allowance with Ryanair,even after 40 % tax, easily covers all my extra expenses ie. SIM, Parking, Uniform, ID, Hotels (max twice a year doing SIM). I was ones politely ASKED to take 5 days in Italy, hotel paid and extra allowences during the stay, a very good and fair deal.
What was this allowance in 2000? Same as it is now. Have your expenses gone up? Are hotels, parking, uniform more now than they were in 2000? Yes they are, you are now worse off than the same pilot in 2000
UK Viking said:
I also get like 10 % extra for pension if i pay the same amount, which is almost as good as the one I had in a Scandinavian Airline some yers ago.
Basic pay for a UK based captain in 2000 was approx 50,000. Inflation since then has been 30%, so just to be the same as a cpt was in 2000 your basic should be 65,000. if you are a UK based cpt you will be now getting no more than about 57,000. You are 8,000 poorer in real terms than the same cpt was in 2000. And if you think a measly 5,000 ish a year pension contribution from the company will keep you in retirement in anything other than poverty, think again.
UK Viking said:
I have a 5/4 roster which is very good if I live near my base BUT also very good if I need to commute on a absolutely free basis within Ryanair network.
this is about the only decent thing about the ryanair setup, but does it compensate for getting poorer every year?
UK Viking said:
My netpay is, for the time being, at least what my ex-colleges gets around the world.
You need to look around a bit more. An ordinary easyjet captain earns a minimum of 105,000 GBP, a Tfly captain at least 10,000 more than that. Both Balpa companies BTW. Look at your P60, I bet it doesn't show 105,000. More like 85,000? If so, you are very cheap!! Also there are strong rumours that ryan have just arbitrarily lowered new captain salaries to the level where there will be pretty much no financial penalty in moving from the left seat in ryanair to the right seat in BA, Thomson etc That's how Ryan management works, attack the new (weak) guys
UK Viking said:
I don't have my favorite base yet, but do you think you get the base you want in other large airlines ? We are a very large airline with about 2000 pilots, not easy to manage concerning everyones wishes.
In other large airlines there is a system to determine base, usually seniority based. Therefore it may take time but eventually you get where you want to be. In Ryan there is no system because they don't want a system. Why? Because it is a hold over you to stop you from asking for a fair set of T&Cs or complaining when you get shafted. It is a way for them to reward people who give them what they want (a continuation of reduction in dignity and respect and T&Cs) by way of participating in the sausage machine to deliver more, ever cheaper pilots. It is a way for them to dilute possible 'troublesome' ie organised, groups of pilots with new pilots who are more acquiescent to the pay cuts etc
UK Viking said:
Ryanair just send out a note concerning the BALPA recognition, I can't see BALPA being able to change anything to the better, myself just joined a independent union instead, as I am quite happy with my job and don't see any better T & C anywhere.
Like I said, you need to look around a bit at a few BALPA companies to see WAY better working environments where pilots are treated like professionals, and don't get ranted at via pidgeon hole dropped propaganda garbage or threatened in meetings with dire circumstances if they exercise their LEGAL RIGHT to collective representation with a union
Sorry for the long post and to address every one of your points but I encourage you to do a bit of research and find out what is actually happening in Ryanair compared to the other big UK based companies.....
Ssschmokin1
My allowance with Ryanair,even after 40 % tax, easily covers all my extra expenses ie. SIM, Parking, Uniform, ID, Hotels (max twice a year doing SIM). I was ones politely ASKED to take 5 days in Italy, hotel paid and extra allowences during the stay, a very good and fair deal.
What was this allowance in 2000? Same as it is now. Have your expenses gone up? Are hotels, parking, uniform more now than they were in 2000? Yes they are, you are now worse off than the same pilot in 2000
UK Viking said:
I also get like 10 % extra for pension if i pay the same amount, which is almost as good as the one I had in a Scandinavian Airline some yers ago.
Basic pay for a UK based captain in 2000 was approx 50,000. Inflation since then has been 30%, so just to be the same as a cpt was in 2000 your basic should be 65,000. if you are a UK based cpt you will be now getting no more than about 57,000. You are 8,000 poorer in real terms than the same cpt was in 2000. And if you think a measly 5,000 ish a year pension contribution from the company will keep you in retirement in anything other than poverty, think again.
UK Viking said:
I have a 5/4 roster which is very good if I live near my base BUT also very good if I need to commute on a absolutely free basis within Ryanair network.
this is about the only decent thing about the ryanair setup, but does it compensate for getting poorer every year?
UK Viking said:
My netpay is, for the time being, at least what my ex-colleges gets around the world.
You need to look around a bit more. An ordinary easyjet captain earns a minimum of 105,000 GBP, a Tfly captain at least 10,000 more than that. Both Balpa companies BTW. Look at your P60, I bet it doesn't show 105,000. More like 85,000? If so, you are very cheap!! Also there are strong rumours that ryan have just arbitrarily lowered new captain salaries to the level where there will be pretty much no financial penalty in moving from the left seat in ryanair to the right seat in BA, Thomson etc That's how Ryan management works, attack the new (weak) guys
UK Viking said:
I don't have my favorite base yet, but do you think you get the base you want in other large airlines ? We are a very large airline with about 2000 pilots, not easy to manage concerning everyones wishes.
In other large airlines there is a system to determine base, usually seniority based. Therefore it may take time but eventually you get where you want to be. In Ryan there is no system because they don't want a system. Why? Because it is a hold over you to stop you from asking for a fair set of T&Cs or complaining when you get shafted. It is a way for them to reward people who give them what they want (a continuation of reduction in dignity and respect and T&Cs) by way of participating in the sausage machine to deliver more, ever cheaper pilots. It is a way for them to dilute possible 'troublesome' ie organised, groups of pilots with new pilots who are more acquiescent to the pay cuts etc
UK Viking said:
Ryanair just send out a note concerning the BALPA recognition, I can't see BALPA being able to change anything to the better, myself just joined a independent union instead, as I am quite happy with my job and don't see any better T & C anywhere.
Like I said, you need to look around a bit at a few BALPA companies to see WAY better working environments where pilots are treated like professionals, and don't get ranted at via pidgeon hole dropped propaganda garbage or threatened in meetings with dire circumstances if they exercise their LEGAL RIGHT to collective representation with a union
Sorry for the long post and to address every one of your points but I encourage you to do a bit of research and find out what is actually happening in Ryanair compared to the other big UK based companies.....
Ssschmokin1
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Great post ssschmokin1! Nothing to add.
As I posted before: "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king!"
People have no clue how things are organized (yes, things actually are organized!) in other airlines and people have no clue about basic economic principles like inflation and the effects of an increasing supply of pilots on a shrinking job market.
Foolishly these (mostly) young and (definitely) naive pilots swim blindfolded in a pool of sharks and alligators, thinking that they don't need protection, don't need to stick together and won't need a union. Instead they pretend to sleep well at night (in their own bed!
), knowing that their good pals, shark MOL and alligator AH, will always treat them with respect and dignity and won't eat them alive when they get hungry. Sweet dreams! 
As I posted before: "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king!"
People have no clue how things are organized (yes, things actually are organized!) in other airlines and people have no clue about basic economic principles like inflation and the effects of an increasing supply of pilots on a shrinking job market.
Foolishly these (mostly) young and (definitely) naive pilots swim blindfolded in a pool of sharks and alligators, thinking that they don't need protection, don't need to stick together and won't need a union. Instead they pretend to sleep well at night (in their own bed!
), knowing that their good pals, shark MOL and alligator AH, will always treat them with respect and dignity and won't eat them alive when they get hungry. Sweet dreams!
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ssschmokin1 and Bokkie
Sorry lads but the vast majority of guys I meet at Ryanair are quite happy with the job. Yes we all go through phases of being pissed off and yes I see things I don't like but I really think you guys need a reality check.
Line Captains at my base clear between 5 - 6 grand a month on average.
5 on 4 off roster is GROUND BREAKING within the industry.
At EasyJet we looked at the Ryanair rosters with envy!That's why they had to go 5/3 - 5/4 ! Easyjet was a shambles!
Yes the FO's have a tough deal for a while but they had money to spend and CHOSE the Ryanair route - they are flying brand new -800's and most wouldn't know how to spell Fokker 27!They are not INFANTS! Sorry didn't they research Ryanair a bit before spending their 50/60/70k?
In general they should have commands in 3- 4 years FROM CADET!
Britannia when I was there (in the land of the blind) took 17 years that's SEVENTEEN f'ing years!I know it was less for a while but probably back to 17 now!
Easyjet - well you tell me how long for a command ? Nice uniform while you're waiting mind.
Here's an example of my options..........
I was flying for Air Atlanta Europe before coming here and clearing 4k ish per month flying Excel charters on B767.
SOP's - laughable (Icelandic FO/ Europe Captain) 2 lots of sop's, or just don't bother!
Kenya with no database etc etcetc
HPSOV @ 80 kts......'.Oh yeah didn't anyone tell you about that? It'll go out again later in the takeoff ' Antiskid U/S - no V1 decrement in the books?
(Called my mate at Thomson - he came up with 30 odd knots off !!)
Rosters that changed every time you looked at your computer - eight days off a month - in GOA if they had their way!
I'm sick of being called gutless/spineless because I choseto work for Ryanair. I've been flying professionally since 1983 and Boeings since 1989.
If Ryanair is destroying all your amazing Terms and Conditions at other airlines - YOU go on strike in protest. What is Balpa doing about it ?After all -YOU ARE BALPA!
Balpa - Geoff Hoon would be perfect.
Yes could always do with more money but quite happy on well over 100k sterling.
Sorry lads but the vast majority of guys I meet at Ryanair are quite happy with the job. Yes we all go through phases of being pissed off and yes I see things I don't like but I really think you guys need a reality check.
Line Captains at my base clear between 5 - 6 grand a month on average.
5 on 4 off roster is GROUND BREAKING within the industry.
At EasyJet we looked at the Ryanair rosters with envy!That's why they had to go 5/3 - 5/4 ! Easyjet was a shambles!
Yes the FO's have a tough deal for a while but they had money to spend and CHOSE the Ryanair route - they are flying brand new -800's and most wouldn't know how to spell Fokker 27!They are not INFANTS! Sorry didn't they research Ryanair a bit before spending their 50/60/70k?
In general they should have commands in 3- 4 years FROM CADET!
Britannia when I was there (in the land of the blind) took 17 years that's SEVENTEEN f'ing years!I know it was less for a while but probably back to 17 now!
Easyjet - well you tell me how long for a command ? Nice uniform while you're waiting mind.
Here's an example of my options..........
I was flying for Air Atlanta Europe before coming here and clearing 4k ish per month flying Excel charters on B767.
SOP's - laughable (Icelandic FO/ Europe Captain) 2 lots of sop's, or just don't bother!
Kenya with no database etc etcetc
HPSOV @ 80 kts......'.Oh yeah didn't anyone tell you about that? It'll go out again later in the takeoff ' Antiskid U/S - no V1 decrement in the books?
(Called my mate at Thomson - he came up with 30 odd knots off !!)
Rosters that changed every time you looked at your computer - eight days off a month - in GOA if they had their way!
I'm sick of being called gutless/spineless because I choseto work for Ryanair. I've been flying professionally since 1983 and Boeings since 1989.
If Ryanair is destroying all your amazing Terms and Conditions at other airlines - YOU go on strike in protest. What is Balpa doing about it ?After all -YOU ARE BALPA!
Balpa - Geoff Hoon would be perfect.
Yes could always do with more money but quite happy on well over 100k sterling.
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Kenya with no database etc etcetc
HPSOV @ 80 kts......'.Oh yeah didn't anyone tell you about that? It'll go out again later in the takeoff ' Antiskid U/S - no V1 decrement in the books?
(Called my mate at Thomson - he came up with 30 odd knots off !!)
HPSOV @ 80 kts......'.Oh yeah didn't anyone tell you about that? It'll go out again later in the takeoff ' Antiskid U/S - no V1 decrement in the books?
(Called my mate at Thomson - he came up with 30 odd knots off !!)
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Well Stan, each to their own. It's the exception that confirms the rule.
For me (and most others) leaving the low cost aviation hell has been a total blessing, and that's why you see more and more pilots trying to make the switch to majors or charter airlines and not the other way around. Once again, there are always exceptions, but it's clearly not the rule.
Obviously you love the place, especially when compared to AAI. Now AAI, there's a real industry benchmark for excellent pay, excellent conditions and rock solid SOP's!
I can now understand why you perceive FR as an improvement, but just because you like jumping from the frying pan into the fire, it does not mean that you have to drag everybody down with you. Obviously a lot of others are not happy and are sick and tired of seeing their T&C's erode further and further and are thinking about strikes and unionizing.
Think about it Stan, if all is so rosy in FR, then why is the management so desperately trying to keep unions out? Even SWA is unionized!
For me (and most others) leaving the low cost aviation hell has been a total blessing, and that's why you see more and more pilots trying to make the switch to majors or charter airlines and not the other way around. Once again, there are always exceptions, but it's clearly not the rule.
Obviously you love the place, especially when compared to AAI. Now AAI, there's a real industry benchmark for excellent pay, excellent conditions and rock solid SOP's!
I can now understand why you perceive FR as an improvement, but just because you like jumping from the frying pan into the fire, it does not mean that you have to drag everybody down with you. Obviously a lot of others are not happy and are sick and tired of seeing their T&C's erode further and further and are thinking about strikes and unionizing. Think about it Stan, if all is so rosy in FR, then why is the management so desperately trying to keep unions out? Even SWA is unionized!
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Bokkie
Sorry but I specifically said Air Atlanta Europe - I wouldn't have joined Icelandic. Europe was much more along the lines of a standard UK charter outfit.
I guess you chose to ignore that I also worked for easyjet and Britannia among others.
I don't think I 'love the place' but I have a sensible perspective which is clearly lacking in many posters regarding Ryanair.
In fact I'm not the exception. Of the Captains who came to Ryanair some time after easyjet I can think of two who have left and at least six that are still here.Until six months ago any of them could have walked into any number of 737 jobs - why didn't they?
Don't understand why management think as they do. Never have.
Balpa....mmmm
My experience of Balpa was a big letdown - twice! This is how they bark.........yip.yip.yip....then management throws a biscuit and they go lie in their basket!
Enjoy the right seat, I guess you will be there some time?
Sorry but I specifically said Air Atlanta Europe - I wouldn't have joined Icelandic. Europe was much more along the lines of a standard UK charter outfit.
I guess you chose to ignore that I also worked for easyjet and Britannia among others.
I don't think I 'love the place' but I have a sensible perspective which is clearly lacking in many posters regarding Ryanair.
In fact I'm not the exception. Of the Captains who came to Ryanair some time after easyjet I can think of two who have left and at least six that are still here.Until six months ago any of them could have walked into any number of 737 jobs - why didn't they?
Don't understand why management think as they do. Never have.
Balpa....mmmm
My experience of Balpa was a big letdown - twice! This is how they bark.........yip.yip.yip....then management throws a biscuit and they go lie in their basket!
Enjoy the right seat, I guess you will be there some time?
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Hi does anyone Know if BALPA and IALPA have ties or if they meet half way on the issue of Ryanair?Is it possible the majority of pilots who are in Ryanair are in either UNION and it is difficult to get anything done as pilots are divided as to which Union they are in?
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What!!!
quote:"5 on 4 off roster is GROUND BREAKING within the industry"!!!!!!!!
Try 7-7 or even 7-7-7-14 wich is quite normal in scandiland
I know its not everyone, but thats two examples from two "minor" players in the market. On top of that you get free type and around 50000pound starting salary. Luckily the market isnt
upp everywhere.
Try 7-7 or even 7-7-7-14 wich is quite normal in scandiland
I know its not everyone, but thats two examples from two "minor" players in the market. On top of that you get free type and around 50000pound starting salary. Luckily the market isnt
upp everywhere.
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I don't see what the problem is. If the majority of FR pilots are happy, why try and convince them they are not. What's good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander. I find it amazing that people who have never worked for FR will quite happily criticise, while knowing very little of what they talk about.
I happen to work for a company that has Balpa recognition, and am very happy. They have made substantial improvements to our T's and C's over the 10 years+ I have been here, and believe they are very good value. We have always been lucky with who has represented us on our CC.
To suggest that FR will bring down T+C's for the industry as a whole is suggesting that being unionised is not worthwhile, as Balpa will not be able to prevent the reduction of your T+C's. This, I believe, is cobblers and will quite happily pay my 1% tax deductable fee to maintain and improve my working conditions.
I happen to work for a company that has Balpa recognition, and am very happy. They have made substantial improvements to our T's and C's over the 10 years+ I have been here, and believe they are very good value. We have always been lucky with who has represented us on our CC.
To suggest that FR will bring down T+C's for the industry as a whole is suggesting that being unionised is not worthwhile, as Balpa will not be able to prevent the reduction of your T+C's. This, I believe, is cobblers and will quite happily pay my 1% tax deductable fee to maintain and improve my working conditions.
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Stan woolley
Yes, the F/Os have had a crap deal, brought about because the incumbent pilots did not protect them, and in fact are getting more of the same, because the latest i have heard on the grapevine is that there has been an opportunistic raid on new captains' salaries, with a new lower baseline salary being applied. Of course, this was not mentioned in the latest sham of a pay and condition 'negotiation' (ie do you want a small paycut, or a large one), because when it suits the company and they think they can get away with it, they bypass the ERC system at will. Therefore, the F/Os that took the substantial paycuts 'to improve the cpts pay' now find they won't be getting any of that improvement when they do make the right seat.
Anyway, now that the cpts starting basic is back below 50 grand, where it was in the late '90s (more money without BALPA lads, to be sure), and a first officer at thomson or BA is on about that money from day one, what is the point in going for the right seat in ryanair anyway, rather than leaving at the first opportunity. Once you factor in the reduced salary, sector pay and the extra expense and hassle of a guaranteed base move (a friend of mine was told 'your choice is any base except your current one'), you are in a break even situation at best moving to the left.
But let me guess, Stan, you're all right jack. I'm supposed to take my pay cut like a good lad and shut up, is that it?
Yes, the F/Os have had a crap deal, brought about because the incumbent pilots did not protect them, and in fact are getting more of the same, because the latest i have heard on the grapevine is that there has been an opportunistic raid on new captains' salaries, with a new lower baseline salary being applied. Of course, this was not mentioned in the latest sham of a pay and condition 'negotiation' (ie do you want a small paycut, or a large one), because when it suits the company and they think they can get away with it, they bypass the ERC system at will. Therefore, the F/Os that took the substantial paycuts 'to improve the cpts pay' now find they won't be getting any of that improvement when they do make the right seat.
Anyway, now that the cpts starting basic is back below 50 grand, where it was in the late '90s (more money without BALPA lads, to be sure), and a first officer at thomson or BA is on about that money from day one, what is the point in going for the right seat in ryanair anyway, rather than leaving at the first opportunity. Once you factor in the reduced salary, sector pay and the extra expense and hassle of a guaranteed base move (a friend of mine was told 'your choice is any base except your current one'), you are in a break even situation at best moving to the left.
But let me guess, Stan, you're all right jack. I'm supposed to take my pay cut like a good lad and shut up, is that it?
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ssschmokin1
Ssschmokin1, you did'nt quite understand that I was talking about NETPAY not basic, my Ryanair NETPAY incl. sector pay is semilar or more than my fellow colleges in Easyjet today and not 8000 £ less, they haven't got the same roster (5/4) as we do and they are not expanding as quickly as Ryanair, in other words, you don't get command as fast as in Ryanair, at least for the time being. ( I started in Ryanair i July 2007, bacame commander within 11 months and my fellow colleges in Easy are till first officers even after 3 years with same qualifications)
As for the allowences since 2001, well I don't know about that as I joined Ryanair in 2007, but I tell you, compared to former Maersk Air salary, Ryanair is absolutely paying a fare salary for the time being.
Concerning the cadets, as long as they are willing to take the offer, why should Ryanair refuse ?
Once there are no candidates for the first officer position, the T & A will change and Ryanair has to pay to get their pilots.
We are, bacause of the recession, in a quite bad position as pilots right now, but just wait and see, in about 4 - 5 years time, Ryanair has to improove their T & A to keep the company going.
Does'nt it make any sence that ALL the airlines with the best T & A are struggling to keep the companies going, this is not the past but the future and nothing is going to be as it was, sorry.
BALPA is only struggling to get a Ryanair recognition as they are forced by BA and similar companies to prevent their T & C to go the same way, forget it, we are in 2009 and nothing will ever be as it was, no one should be surprised by the conditions in the airline business right now, if they don't like it, stay away, or opposite accept the conditions or find another way of making your living, I will just say, I like my job with Ryanair very much and no one can convince me not to, it is a free world, lots of jobs in Asia, China, Africa and the middle esat, just go ahead and pick your choise, if Ryanair was that bad, they was'nt doing that well.
As for the allowences since 2001, well I don't know about that as I joined Ryanair in 2007, but I tell you, compared to former Maersk Air salary, Ryanair is absolutely paying a fare salary for the time being.
Concerning the cadets, as long as they are willing to take the offer, why should Ryanair refuse ?
Once there are no candidates for the first officer position, the T & A will change and Ryanair has to pay to get their pilots.
We are, bacause of the recession, in a quite bad position as pilots right now, but just wait and see, in about 4 - 5 years time, Ryanair has to improove their T & A to keep the company going.
Does'nt it make any sence that ALL the airlines with the best T & A are struggling to keep the companies going, this is not the past but the future and nothing is going to be as it was, sorry.
BALPA is only struggling to get a Ryanair recognition as they are forced by BA and similar companies to prevent their T & C to go the same way, forget it, we are in 2009 and nothing will ever be as it was, no one should be surprised by the conditions in the airline business right now, if they don't like it, stay away, or opposite accept the conditions or find another way of making your living, I will just say, I like my job with Ryanair very much and no one can convince me not to, it is a free world, lots of jobs in Asia, China, Africa and the middle esat, just go ahead and pick your choise, if Ryanair was that bad, they was'nt doing that well.
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Hopefully balpa will never get recognition in Ryanair. and we will see sense and send them packing back to BA. never been a member of Balpa ,never will be and would prefer gay sex then paying them any of my money.
the roster is perfect for me work on average 14 days a month, home every night. not been divorced through night stopping and i have a good life. Flown the 747 and the 767 with XXXX and for me this is the best flying i have ever done. the expenses are not that much, a fraction of the cost of being a balpa member. if you don't like it move over and let some one else in.
I was not tied up or forced to sign my contract, so stop the whinging and spread the word, resign from Balpa before its to late
the roster is perfect for me work on average 14 days a month, home every night. not been divorced through night stopping and i have a good life. Flown the 747 and the 767 with XXXX and for me this is the best flying i have ever done. the expenses are not that much, a fraction of the cost of being a balpa member. if you don't like it move over and let some one else in.I was not tied up or forced to sign my contract, so stop the whinging and spread the word, resign from Balpa before its to late
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Pilot999
Well said !!!!
If people think RYR pilots are low paid ass..... then they know very little about how Ryanair pilots are paid.
Most pay their taxes just like us mortals, and have good lives with the 5/4 roster.
I am sick and tired of people running down RYR pilots especially the name calling, and unfounded statements.
No I am not a RYR pilot, but with little time to go to retirement, I have seen it all and got the T shirt.
As well as being on the company council for BALPA, and having seen the light been out of their clutches for several years.
If you or anyone thinks a strike will solve things I suggest they think again and look what has happened to unionised airlines in Europe (SABENA for example)
M.O.L. and his managers will just fire the lot of you and recruit even more cadets to fill the gaps, whilst promoting those F/O's with experience or taking DEC's from the many out there unemployed.
Stop running down RYR with every thread that even mentions their name, you know who you are and are getting very boring.
Well said !!!!
If people think RYR pilots are low paid ass..... then they know very little about how Ryanair pilots are paid.
Most pay their taxes just like us mortals, and have good lives with the 5/4 roster.
I am sick and tired of people running down RYR pilots especially the name calling, and unfounded statements.
No I am not a RYR pilot, but with little time to go to retirement, I have seen it all and got the T shirt.
As well as being on the company council for BALPA, and having seen the light been out of their clutches for several years.
If you or anyone thinks a strike will solve things I suggest they think again and look what has happened to unionised airlines in Europe (SABENA for example)
M.O.L. and his managers will just fire the lot of you and recruit even more cadets to fill the gaps, whilst promoting those F/O's with experience or taking DEC's from the many out there unemployed.
Stop running down RYR with every thread that even mentions their name, you know who you are and are getting very boring.