end of TRSS at easyjet
At the end of the six months these guys have a frozen ATPL and 4-5 hundred hours in an A-319.
Is that such a bad deal?? Try asking the guys doing the 'self-improver' route!!
Is that such a bad deal?? Try asking the guys doing the 'self-improver' route!!
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I posted on the "LOw-Cost will it fail" thread and I know the truth in what I said upset people.Well,it upset those people who are party to this scandal.This thread says it all in black and white and demonstrates that what I was saying is plainly true.
The deceptive way easyjet use a beard(CTC) to get their full pool of self-funded co-pilots is similar to ryanairs use of a certain Dutch training establishment.Very sneaky and under-handed.By making it a totally separate institution(CTC),they distance themselves very nicely from any finger-pointing and can even play the "we're giving these new guys their first break in a new jet" card,making it seem as if theyre the good guy.Very sneaky.Comments from the two posters above make my stomach turn.Theres nothing good about taking advantage of people,inexperienced or otherwise.Something should be done about it.It should be stopped or curtailed(traditional bond not this mortgage-your-soul-to-be-a-pilot bond).Problem is theres no union powerful enough to stop it because pilots today arent what they used to be(unions are only as good as their membership)What I do know is that this would not have been allowed just 15-20 years ago.
You can say its a sign of the times,and that is certainly what the unscrupulous easyjet and ryanair want you to believe.As evidenced by this mind-boggling bit of self-delusion from one idiot:
As long as we have pilots like this who are willing to be led like lambs to the slaughter,then what chance is there for this once-great profession?
Yes,God forbid that dross like easyjet should ever consider hiring pilots that are actually experienced and havent filled CTC's(and hence easyjets) coffers beforehand.
At the end of the six months these guys have a frozen ATPL and 4-5 hundred hours in an A-319.
Is that such a bad deal??
Is that such a bad deal??
I've been reliably informed that the foundation course is now £8,000.
Selection is £184.
£100,684.
Bargain at half the price!
Selection is £184.
£100,684.
Bargain at half the price!
You can say its a sign of the times,and that is certainly what the unscrupulous easyjet and ryanair want you to believe.As evidenced by this mind-boggling bit of self-delusion from one idiot:
"they pay us £1k a month for 6 months. At no point are we paying to fly."
It's actually your own money coming back to you, hence the lack of NI/Income Tax etc etc etc
easyJet are *not* paying you, nor are you ever an employee of theirs.
Instead of "paying to fly" you're just doing the job for free, hardly much difference is there?
The only difference in the past was the guaranteed job at the end, thus people overlooked that you were working for free. Now there is no guaranteed job, you are now just getting the type rating and line flying included in the £69k you pay up front.
It's actually your own money coming back to you, hence the lack of NI/Income Tax etc etc etc
easyJet are *not* paying you, nor are you ever an employee of theirs.
Instead of "paying to fly" you're just doing the job for free, hardly much difference is there?
The only difference in the past was the guaranteed job at the end, thus people overlooked that you were working for free. Now there is no guaranteed job, you are now just getting the type rating and line flying included in the £69k you pay up front.
Right now there is a huge supply of cheap, high-quality but low-houred pilots to take advantage of - therefore easyJet does! If we have to take experienced type-rated pilots we will do so and pay the market rate.
Caulfield: Well,it upset those people who are party to this scandal.
Caulfield: As evidenced by this mind-boggling bit of self-delusion from one idiot:
a. you failed to get into CTC and are a bitter man or
b. you failed to get into EZY and are a bitter man, as evidenced by your previous postings, one of which is shown below from 2007!!!
Caulfield: Good on the French.Anything that tries to rid the world of easyjet and ryanair has to be good.
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As I understand it the loans via HSBC used to be unsecured. However due to the current situation I think that route is blocked and unsecured loans are no longer an option. Result, you're gonna be 90ish grand in debt (secured against your own or probably mum & dads house), six months in the rhs of a jet where you get 6 grand of your own money then....more than likely out the door to make way for the next band of unfortunates. Oh dear, I don't think I'd recommend that, not for me at least.
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"they pay us £1k a month for 6 months. At no point are we paying to fly."
Yes, CTC pay us, not easyJet. However what previously happened was that cadets were then employed by easyJet at the end of the 6 months and were paid a salary that was actually slightly higher then that of a direct entry pilot.
What is meant to now happen is that after the inital six months cadets will go onto a full flexicrew salary, if and when they are taken back on for the next summer.
No one is aiming to fly for just the inial six months and get paid just a grand a month, we're taking a bit of a hit to begin a career.
Yes, CTC pay us, not easyJet. However what previously happened was that cadets were then employed by easyJet at the end of the 6 months and were paid a salary that was actually slightly higher then that of a direct entry pilot.
What is meant to now happen is that after the inital six months cadets will go onto a full flexicrew salary, if and when they are taken back on for the next summer.
No one is aiming to fly for just the inial six months and get paid just a grand a month, we're taking a bit of a hit to begin a career.
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The Flying Cokeman - I think we are both of exactly the same mind. My only difference is that I cannot look ahead to any time in the foreseeable future when we will not have a huge pile of qualified and capable FOs awaiting Command. Therefore I cannot see any need for DECs. The only chink in that argument I could see would be if another airline went down and a rapid opportunity appeared to move quickly into a market at very short notice and we could not provide enough Captains through the training system. Even then, I think there numbers would be tiny - it any at all.
Hahn - I absolutely do mean to tell you that if you are an easyJet captain you will be sat next to an FO earning £1k per month. I have done it constantly for the last 5 years and have done so in the last week!
Hahn - I absolutely do mean to tell you that if you are an easyJet captain you will be sat next to an FO earning £1k per month. I have done it constantly for the last 5 years and have done so in the last week!
Kick the tyres,
Bitter and vengeful crap seems to be Caulfield's speciality!
Probably best to engage the ignore function.
Slightly on-topic, the CTC cadets I fly with seem to range in ability from very very good up to excellent, and all seem to be quite happy with the route they have taken in to the business.
Bitter and vengeful crap seems to be Caulfield's speciality!
Probably best to engage the ignore function.
Originally Posted by Caulfield, a bitter man
What a shame that would be...all of us,Brits and unsuspecting transit passengers who might be visiting Britain for the first time,being herded onto these orange fat alberts by people with little or no grace and manners..being snapped at by teenage cabin crew and thrown a cheese and ham sandwich..all of us being thrown into this orange melting pot of proletarian mediocrity.
Is this what people want?Safe,cheap and on-time and thats it?And is easyjet those things in any case?
Is this what people want?Safe,cheap and on-time and thats it?And is easyjet those things in any case?
EzyRamper, CTC do not pay you, you pay yourself from your big loan that is why you do not pay tax or NI!
I do not like these schemes where pilots fly for free in order to get experience but can also understand why inexperienced pilots are tempted by the thought of a few pages of Airbus hours in their log book.
Unfortunately, the CTC scheme now screws its own cadets by condoning Easyjets actions of booting out cadets after 6 months when they would have to be given a contract and be paid in favour of another bunch of fly for free cadets. This obviously suits CTC very nicely as there is a constant demand for their services.
However, I would strongly advise any cadets to consider their options this coming winter as Ezy will not be in need of their services even if they are free.
I do not like these schemes where pilots fly for free in order to get experience but can also understand why inexperienced pilots are tempted by the thought of a few pages of Airbus hours in their log book.
Unfortunately, the CTC scheme now screws its own cadets by condoning Easyjets actions of booting out cadets after 6 months when they would have to be given a contract and be paid in favour of another bunch of fly for free cadets. This obviously suits CTC very nicely as there is a constant demand for their services.
However, I would strongly advise any cadets to consider their options this coming winter as Ezy will not be in need of their services even if they are free.
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Slightly on-topic, the CTC cadets I fly with seem to range in ability from very very good up to excellent, and all seem to be quite happy with the route they have taken in to the business.
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either:
a. you failed to get into CTC and are a bitter man or
b. you failed to get into EZY and are a bitter man, as evidenced by your previous postings, one of which is shown below from 2007!!!
a. you failed to get into CTC and are a bitter man or
b. you failed to get into EZY and are a bitter man, as evidenced by your previous postings, one of which is shown below from 2007!!!
When I started flying there were three ways in;RAF,cadetship(BA,BMI) and self-improver.Pilots didnt pay for Type ratings and they certainly didnt pay for line flying.I see nothing wrong with the traditional 3 year bond to cover TR costs(pilot pays nothing up front but has a guarantor) but the system as it stands today is plainly out of control and needs addressing.Where are the labour laws that protect people?What other profession is being hijacked in such a disgraceful manner?
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I think Caulfield has a point. As long as you don't think that airlines owe you a career. Easyjet and Ryanair right now are doing their level best to devalue pilots and make our skills worth a quarter of what they ever were. It is part of the low cost model though and that's why companies like BMI Baby have a harder time - they pay people properly right from the start and pay for their TRs. It's pointles talking about unions etc. the people that are paying to fly by very nature are open to being screwed. They can't see the wood for the trees. They are probably all very good pilots but that's about it. They don't have a business mind, they don't have value for money or respect for money. They are infact probably in the main, uni leavers who don't understand the real world. So I strongly suggest people just accept it and have a sideline making the greater part of your income - the clever ones do.
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Excellent pilots do NOT exist. You can be a good opeartor on a fully automatic plane like the airbus, you can fly the bars of the FD with ease, but one day you can find yourself in a hard situation, and even if you think you are excellent, all you'll need is to get luck to get out of the ****.
Anyway, the topic is not about good or bad pilots, but BAD working conditions and salary in Ryanair and at Easyet. Taking on pay to fly cadets for 6 months is NOT acceptable and it is a pain for the future of all the employees of that company, because sooner or later Ryanair and Easyjet will contract pay to fly captains...for 6 months as well!
Ryanair and Easyjet are now bringing a new structure to this industry by creating "low cost employees" for their "low cost airline". After all Michael o Leary is right when he says Pilots have been paid too much for doing nothing, seated in an automatic bus with wings.
Anyway, the topic is not about good or bad pilots, but BAD working conditions and salary in Ryanair and at Easyet. Taking on pay to fly cadets for 6 months is NOT acceptable and it is a pain for the future of all the employees of that company, because sooner or later Ryanair and Easyjet will contract pay to fly captains...for 6 months as well!
Ryanair and Easyjet are now bringing a new structure to this industry by creating "low cost employees" for their "low cost airline". After all Michael o Leary is right when he says Pilots have been paid too much for doing nothing, seated in an automatic bus with wings.
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As an FO working for an airline which has recently started training Pay-To-Fly scum (also referred to as Pay Gays), let me tell you what it has done to the position of FO.....it has devalued it to the point where I am no longer an asset to the company, but an expensive liability......the only thing that stands between me being kicked out of the company and being replaced by an unpaid Pay Gay is the honour of the training department, who I might add, are not happy with this arrangement either.
If these scum bags only knew what was being said behind there backs they would think twice about paying to work....they are not wanted!!
Well done guys and may the flee's from a thousand camels infest your pubes and may your arms be to short to scratch.
If these scum bags only knew what was being said behind there backs they would think twice about paying to work....they are not wanted!!
Well done guys and may the flee's from a thousand camels infest your pubes and may your arms be to short to scratch.
Last edited by bluelearjetdriver; 1st Jun 2009 at 14:19.
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BLJD, I was just posting a lengthy-ish reply, but I can't be bothered. If you really, really can't see that, ACTUALLY, it's your attitude towards these poor buggers who are only trying to get a foothold that ALLOWS the airlines to divide and conquer like this and create these schemes, then, well frankly, there is no hope.
You might not like it, but Caulfield is right. "Every-man-for-himself-and-sod-the-rest" has got to stop, or there will be nothing left. Unfortunately this appears to apply just as much to line pilots as it does to Newbies.
You might not like it, but Caulfield is right. "Every-man-for-himself-and-sod-the-rest" has got to stop, or there will be nothing left. Unfortunately this appears to apply just as much to line pilots as it does to Newbies.
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Bluelearjet
I omit driver, because anyone with the size of chip you have on your shoulder should not be guiding a push bike let alone an aircraft.
What you and others seem to forget is that it NOT the Lo-Co's that drive the terms conditions and pay down, it is the accountants and managers who live for their bonus.
Cutting back has been the bean counters aim for many years and the easy targets are crew members, who have traditionally received high renumeration, for what is perceived little actual work.
What we have forgotten here is the CAA who allowed the Bader Report as the basis for our flight time limitations, and overnight crews went from an average of 450 hours per year to 700 hours without any change in pay.
Now controlable costs are the target of bean counters, and encouraging people to pay for their own ratings is one way to cut the training budget.
I agree with SSTR's as they put the onus upon the student and not the airline.
What I do not agree with is Flexicrew and 6 month contracts for cadets or captains.
Calling the pilots "Scum or Scabs" is totally uncalled for and does nothing for the credability of the person posting.
Human nature will take over and if there is a short cut available it will be taken, even if it means further debt.
CTC have made many hundreds of thousands of pounds from their product and while there was a hiring boom it worked, but in years of lean recruitment it has stalled as the company figures have shown.
We may yet see the demise of CTC, but I do not think we will see the end of the SSTR schemes, as long as there are more pilots than jobs, this is reflected by the numbers of students seeking a career in an airline.
Even in the current climate we have not seen a significant down turn in numbers seeking entry to Integrated or Modular training, and until we do airlines (Read Bean Counters) will continue to encourage part time working and SSTR's.
I omit driver, because anyone with the size of chip you have on your shoulder should not be guiding a push bike let alone an aircraft.
What you and others seem to forget is that it NOT the Lo-Co's that drive the terms conditions and pay down, it is the accountants and managers who live for their bonus.
Cutting back has been the bean counters aim for many years and the easy targets are crew members, who have traditionally received high renumeration, for what is perceived little actual work.
What we have forgotten here is the CAA who allowed the Bader Report as the basis for our flight time limitations, and overnight crews went from an average of 450 hours per year to 700 hours without any change in pay.
Now controlable costs are the target of bean counters, and encouraging people to pay for their own ratings is one way to cut the training budget.
I agree with SSTR's as they put the onus upon the student and not the airline.
What I do not agree with is Flexicrew and 6 month contracts for cadets or captains.
Calling the pilots "Scum or Scabs" is totally uncalled for and does nothing for the credability of the person posting.
Human nature will take over and if there is a short cut available it will be taken, even if it means further debt.
CTC have made many hundreds of thousands of pounds from their product and while there was a hiring boom it worked, but in years of lean recruitment it has stalled as the company figures have shown.
We may yet see the demise of CTC, but I do not think we will see the end of the SSTR schemes, as long as there are more pilots than jobs, this is reflected by the numbers of students seeking a career in an airline.
Even in the current climate we have not seen a significant down turn in numbers seeking entry to Integrated or Modular training, and until we do airlines (Read Bean Counters) will continue to encourage part time working and SSTR's.
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EZYramper: "Sorry for the idiot comment, but you're trying to make us out to be the evil people."
Apology accepted. However, you seem to have the wrong end of the stick - my post was out of concern for the way CTC cadets have been treated. I count several CTC cadets as friends and do not believe any of them are evil !
The current training system (up to first flying job), in the UK at least, has several moral problems. The roots of these can be found in:
1. The availability of easy, low interest credit - a buy it now pay later culture with dire consequences for all industries as seen in 2008, 1929 etc... The value of saving is lost on many leaving school and the return on savings has dropped with every BoE base rate cut leaving their elders with less in the bank. Without huge loans the approved courses wouldn't exist. Even rich daddies want to see a return on their investment - or at least a reasonable timescale for repayment even if interest free. The promises of £100k+ salaries and final salary pension schemes now look like fairy tales to those starting with the airlines now.
2. The change from National CAA ratings to JAR - where a CPL once required 700 hours before issue and pilots were either military, sponsored or self improver. The exams were reduced from BCPL/CPL/ATPL to just frozen ATPL. A direct result has come back to haunt EASA with the lack of youngsters wanting to go into instructional flying and hence the current debate on paying PPLs to instruct.
3. The promise by certain Flight Schools that their system was far better and their special relationship with the Airlines was a money spinner. This, whether by design or not, reduced the kudos of the self improver route to both wanabees and a few airlines. Over the past 5 years even those leaving military flying backgrounds have found they are no longer 1st choice for a few Airline HR departments.
4. Student impatience (?) and the need to pay back huge loans: Why work as an Instructor, fly Light Twins for a pitance, tow gliders, fly turbo-props, or work your way up the airline ladder (aka FAA) to FO on heavy jets when you can do a zero to hero package for £100k and around 2 years....?
5. HR departments replacing Chief Pilots: Yes, most CPs still have a major say in who is taken on. But in the 21st century airlines rely increasingly on recruiting agencies or their own HR who put wanabees through many more tests than ever before. Some are very good at weeding out poor prospects. On the other hand you have the "but you don't have 478 P1 hours on type" when you might have 458 hours...... Today, it is much more artificial - ticks in boxes rather than calls to the CP or airport visits to chat about flying opportunities. Just add in point 3 and offer Airlines a extra tier of HR and hey presto.....
6. Lack of strong pilot community/union or disillusionment with current options.
7. The advent of LoCo - golden handshakes for those able to get the ball rolling in the 1990s and then ever reducing Ts&Cs for the newbees - especially after 911/SARS/Fuel price rises/industry woes.
The results?
1. Pay for your own Type Rating up front - now common place where it was almost unheard of 10 years back.
2. Ripping FOs off for flying passengers: Folks believing they are not paying to fly airliners when the Approved School hands back £6k over 6 months before the Airline lets them go for at least 6 months. Or paying for Line Flying £20k for 300 - 500 hrs with no prospects of a job there after.
3. More and more low houred FOs who will meet the legal requirements and can score very highly in routine SIM assessments. They will get more hours in the 6 months but then loose continuity having been fired again. And what sort of flying would most of those hours be? (Maybe manual T/Os and Landings would be a better measure of experience).
4. No experience outside of automated environment - even with 1000s of hours on a modern airliner (Q400, 737, A320) recent events have shown the need for basic airmanship - particularly with Auto Throttle and Speed monitoring.
5. Additional workload on Captains Line flying (covering for missed ATC calls, extra monitoring as PNF etc) and with changes every 6 months, greater stresses on Training department programmes and Instructors.
This is certainly not a definitive list so feel free to add to it or comment.....
Apology accepted. However, you seem to have the wrong end of the stick - my post was out of concern for the way CTC cadets have been treated. I count several CTC cadets as friends and do not believe any of them are evil !
The current training system (up to first flying job), in the UK at least, has several moral problems. The roots of these can be found in:
1. The availability of easy, low interest credit - a buy it now pay later culture with dire consequences for all industries as seen in 2008, 1929 etc... The value of saving is lost on many leaving school and the return on savings has dropped with every BoE base rate cut leaving their elders with less in the bank. Without huge loans the approved courses wouldn't exist. Even rich daddies want to see a return on their investment - or at least a reasonable timescale for repayment even if interest free. The promises of £100k+ salaries and final salary pension schemes now look like fairy tales to those starting with the airlines now.
2. The change from National CAA ratings to JAR - where a CPL once required 700 hours before issue and pilots were either military, sponsored or self improver. The exams were reduced from BCPL/CPL/ATPL to just frozen ATPL. A direct result has come back to haunt EASA with the lack of youngsters wanting to go into instructional flying and hence the current debate on paying PPLs to instruct.
3. The promise by certain Flight Schools that their system was far better and their special relationship with the Airlines was a money spinner. This, whether by design or not, reduced the kudos of the self improver route to both wanabees and a few airlines. Over the past 5 years even those leaving military flying backgrounds have found they are no longer 1st choice for a few Airline HR departments.
4. Student impatience (?) and the need to pay back huge loans: Why work as an Instructor, fly Light Twins for a pitance, tow gliders, fly turbo-props, or work your way up the airline ladder (aka FAA) to FO on heavy jets when you can do a zero to hero package for £100k and around 2 years....?
5. HR departments replacing Chief Pilots: Yes, most CPs still have a major say in who is taken on. But in the 21st century airlines rely increasingly on recruiting agencies or their own HR who put wanabees through many more tests than ever before. Some are very good at weeding out poor prospects. On the other hand you have the "but you don't have 478 P1 hours on type" when you might have 458 hours...... Today, it is much more artificial - ticks in boxes rather than calls to the CP or airport visits to chat about flying opportunities. Just add in point 3 and offer Airlines a extra tier of HR and hey presto.....
6. Lack of strong pilot community/union or disillusionment with current options.
7. The advent of LoCo - golden handshakes for those able to get the ball rolling in the 1990s and then ever reducing Ts&Cs for the newbees - especially after 911/SARS/Fuel price rises/industry woes.
The results?
1. Pay for your own Type Rating up front - now common place where it was almost unheard of 10 years back.
2. Ripping FOs off for flying passengers: Folks believing they are not paying to fly airliners when the Approved School hands back £6k over 6 months before the Airline lets them go for at least 6 months. Or paying for Line Flying £20k for 300 - 500 hrs with no prospects of a job there after.
3. More and more low houred FOs who will meet the legal requirements and can score very highly in routine SIM assessments. They will get more hours in the 6 months but then loose continuity having been fired again. And what sort of flying would most of those hours be? (Maybe manual T/Os and Landings would be a better measure of experience).
4. No experience outside of automated environment - even with 1000s of hours on a modern airliner (Q400, 737, A320) recent events have shown the need for basic airmanship - particularly with Auto Throttle and Speed monitoring.
5. Additional workload on Captains Line flying (covering for missed ATC calls, extra monitoring as PNF etc) and with changes every 6 months, greater stresses on Training department programmes and Instructors.
This is certainly not a definitive list so feel free to add to it or comment.....
Errrr, why are easy and ryanair being singled out here??
Can we add Thomas cook, thompson, My travel, or whatever they are now, monarch etc etc.
ALL airlines employ CTC not just ezy and ryr!
It is a fact of life in these times.
And no, I dont agree with the principle, but do understand the economics.
Caulfield: I dont understand your bitterness. Many of your immature and foundless postings were made BEFORE the CTC scheme even started!!!
Certainly you dont exude the maturity that your profess to have, so perhaps I was right afterall, simply a bitter chap who failed selection; i can see no other reason for your attacks on ezy and ryr. Or should I include all other airlines that employ CTC is that list? No? Thought not!
Can we add Thomas cook, thompson, My travel, or whatever they are now, monarch etc etc.
ALL airlines employ CTC not just ezy and ryr!
It is a fact of life in these times.
And no, I dont agree with the principle, but do understand the economics.
Caulfield: I dont understand your bitterness. Many of your immature and foundless postings were made BEFORE the CTC scheme even started!!!
Certainly you dont exude the maturity that your profess to have, so perhaps I was right afterall, simply a bitter chap who failed selection; i can see no other reason for your attacks on ezy and ryr. Or should I include all other airlines that employ CTC is that list? No? Thought not!
Last edited by kick the tires; 1st Jun 2009 at 22:12.