Ryanair recruitment-facts
playstation says: Perhaps you forget skyflaps, if the miserable old sod next to you drops dead you are promoted. . . . which is the only reason you are there.
Or perhaps you are so great you never make mistakes or have never had the FO correct something you have or have not done? Never been tired and glad of the second mind and pair of hands? Do you always manage to complete your LPC/OPC as single crew operation? No, didnt think so.
I certainly have and most certainly will make mistakes, have omissions, uncertainties etc in the future. Just as I correct their mistakes on the line and when I am training, I rely on my FO to do the same for me.
What an prehistoric and very dangerous thing to say!
Kick the tyres,
Captplaystation is right.
Move the landing gear lever, autobrake selector and a few other things to the left hand side of the pedestal and a 737 could be flown just as easily single crew as a king air or a citation 1.
Having got the two pilots we can then invent CRM and all the good monitoring stuff that we all do, and hopefully say to the F/O "which sectors would you like?" and then let him or her make all the decisions, helping them along the ardous road to the left hand seat which some of us travelled via FI and air taxi and turboprop F/O then jet F/O and some travelled by SSTR straight to a jet.
But the underlying reason for having two pilots on a public transport flight remains the same as the reason for having two engines - in case one of them dies.
Captplaystation is right.
Move the landing gear lever, autobrake selector and a few other things to the left hand side of the pedestal and a 737 could be flown just as easily single crew as a king air or a citation 1.
Having got the two pilots we can then invent CRM and all the good monitoring stuff that we all do, and hopefully say to the F/O "which sectors would you like?" and then let him or her make all the decisions, helping them along the ardous road to the left hand seat which some of us travelled via FI and air taxi and turboprop F/O then jet F/O and some travelled by SSTR straight to a jet.
But the underlying reason for having two pilots on a public transport flight remains the same as the reason for having two engines - in case one of them dies.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Widebodywilly , Captplaystation,
Before getting too excited try and understand what Im trying to say.
Why is it that this market is so flooded with pilots right now? Of course the major reason is the economic situation but its also because many people aspire to do this job. Why are so many willing to take huge debt for a 12 month course on the gamble that they find a reasonable paying job afterwards? Perhaps its a similar reason for all of us - we have this flying dream/bug etc etc. Of course it has responsibility attached to it - I dont want an idiot flying me all over the place as a passenger either - but compared to other industires - its difficult for me to justify whining about the fact that after a 12mnth course, not too intensive (yes the groundschool does require work and no I wasnt brilliant at it either ) I cant find a 30-40k job that treats me like god.
Anyway, Im not campaigning for lower salaries - Im not campaigning for pilot responsibility to be taken for a joke - but I am campaigning for less whining by individuals that think they should land into a cozy contract earning good money after a 12 month flying course when this is not the norm compared to many other professional vocations. I agree with a pilot being seen as a professional but then again judging by some responses above egos also need to checked.
Before getting too excited try and understand what Im trying to say.
Why is it that this market is so flooded with pilots right now? Of course the major reason is the economic situation but its also because many people aspire to do this job. Why are so many willing to take huge debt for a 12 month course on the gamble that they find a reasonable paying job afterwards? Perhaps its a similar reason for all of us - we have this flying dream/bug etc etc. Of course it has responsibility attached to it - I dont want an idiot flying me all over the place as a passenger either - but compared to other industires - its difficult for me to justify whining about the fact that after a 12mnth course, not too intensive (yes the groundschool does require work and no I wasnt brilliant at it either ) I cant find a 30-40k job that treats me like god.
Anyway, Im not campaigning for lower salaries - Im not campaigning for pilot responsibility to be taken for a joke - but I am campaigning for less whining by individuals that think they should land into a cozy contract earning good money after a 12 month flying course when this is not the norm compared to many other professional vocations. I agree with a pilot being seen as a professional but then again judging by some responses above egos also need to checked.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bin No 28, UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with a pilot being seen as a professional but then again judging by some responses above egos also need to checked.
Did you ever hear the story about the the young boy marching in the band? His mother looked at him and said to the woman next to her, "Look at that, my son's the only one marching in step"
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by skyflaps
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on the way...
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TO: skyflaps
AUTO PILOT can take the responsibility, hmmm.... I didn't know that.
You must be an idiot.
We do have a large responsibility but come on - most of its taken care of by the bloody auto pilot.
You must be an idiot.
This thread used to be about the joys of working for Ryanair. Now that it's degnerated into utter chaos, I feel qualified to add my blissful ignorance to the debate.
Having worked as a lawyer for 5 years in the UK and therefore spent the preceding 5 years at University and Law School getting incredibly drunk, and now holding a shiny new CPL/IR in my hand after a nicely timed (
)career change and a fair dollup of hard work, I can confirm that other careers are also overrated and underpaid.
Not one of my friends who heard about my proposed career change recoiled in horror and told me to stick to my white collar job in the office. On the contrary, every-single friend, colleague and family member was jealous and full of support. Ironically, half of them seem to be out of work at the moment due to redundancy...
Look, everyone hates Ryanair. MOL is singularly unpleasant man. The irony is that the late Tony Ryan set up a company that prided itself on beating its competition on price and service. In the early years apparently even MOL himself argued that Ryanair didn't need Unions because all its staff were happy. Is that the case now?
MOL then went on to import Southwest Airline's low cost business model but decided to poo-poo their emphasis on customer service, staff happiness (it's heavily unionised but they have few problems) and transparent pricing. Yet MOL has effectively ensured that Ryanair is the complete opposite, that is, except for providing low fares. He seems to be driven by an obsession with the No Frills concept in order to make profit at the expense of his employees.
But in the current job market, where there are no jobs for anyone let alone 250 hour newbies, Ryanair's recruitment continues and most of us are drawn to the company out of necessity not choice. I have empathy with those who state, with religious zeal, that they would never work for MOL. Given the choice, neither would I. However, I don't have many options and neither do most of those graduating with their new blue books. If Ryanair offer me a job contingent on paying for a TR, I'll take it.
Is flying a 738 for Ryanair my dream job? Nope. I'd be happy flying a Kingair around Africa or a 146 into LCY. The irony is that my best chance of any flying job is with Ryanair.
Having worked as a lawyer for 5 years in the UK and therefore spent the preceding 5 years at University and Law School getting incredibly drunk, and now holding a shiny new CPL/IR in my hand after a nicely timed (
)career change and a fair dollup of hard work, I can confirm that other careers are also overrated and underpaid. Not one of my friends who heard about my proposed career change recoiled in horror and told me to stick to my white collar job in the office. On the contrary, every-single friend, colleague and family member was jealous and full of support. Ironically, half of them seem to be out of work at the moment due to redundancy...
Look, everyone hates Ryanair. MOL is singularly unpleasant man. The irony is that the late Tony Ryan set up a company that prided itself on beating its competition on price and service. In the early years apparently even MOL himself argued that Ryanair didn't need Unions because all its staff were happy. Is that the case now?
MOL then went on to import Southwest Airline's low cost business model but decided to poo-poo their emphasis on customer service, staff happiness (it's heavily unionised but they have few problems) and transparent pricing. Yet MOL has effectively ensured that Ryanair is the complete opposite, that is, except for providing low fares. He seems to be driven by an obsession with the No Frills concept in order to make profit at the expense of his employees.
But in the current job market, where there are no jobs for anyone let alone 250 hour newbies, Ryanair's recruitment continues and most of us are drawn to the company out of necessity not choice. I have empathy with those who state, with religious zeal, that they would never work for MOL. Given the choice, neither would I. However, I don't have many options and neither do most of those graduating with their new blue books. If Ryanair offer me a job contingent on paying for a TR, I'll take it.
Is flying a 738 for Ryanair my dream job? Nope. I'd be happy flying a Kingair around Africa or a 146 into LCY. The irony is that my best chance of any flying job is with Ryanair.
Kick the tyres,
You know where todays captains get their experience, I'm sure, but just in case you don't...
Todays Captains get their experience from all sorts of places. Some still from the "traditional route", and some from SSTR straight to a jet and then spend three to four thousand hours in that jet. In the future they could get it from an MPL course and spend the same three to four thousand hours in the right hand seat of the jet. All these people make perfectly good aircraft commanders.
I made no comment on the good or bad points of any way of getting qualified.
All I pointed out was that you were wrong in attacking captplaystayions comment about why there are two pilots. There have been two pilots on public transport flights since the 1930s, CRM has been around since the 1970s.
CRM is not the reason for having two pilots. CRM is about how the two pilots function together once the regulatory authorities have decided they must both be there for the safety of the aircraft and it's passengers.
You know where todays captains get their experience, I'm sure, but just in case you don't...
Todays Captains get their experience from all sorts of places. Some still from the "traditional route", and some from SSTR straight to a jet and then spend three to four thousand hours in that jet. In the future they could get it from an MPL course and spend the same three to four thousand hours in the right hand seat of the jet. All these people make perfectly good aircraft commanders.
I made no comment on the good or bad points of any way of getting qualified.
All I pointed out was that you were wrong in attacking captplaystayions comment about why there are two pilots. There have been two pilots on public transport flights since the 1930s, CRM has been around since the 1970s.
CRM is not the reason for having two pilots. CRM is about how the two pilots function together once the regulatory authorities have decided they must both be there for the safety of the aircraft and it's passengers.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 49
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mikeHotel,
Great post....absolutely spot on. You hit the nail squarely on the head when you say that it's not the dream job, but it's the best chance of ANY job in the current market (unless, paraphrasing Dreamshiner - you meet the chief pilots daughter and ...well...you know...)
I too spent a great fun three years getting drunk and chasing girls at Uni....I built a very good (10+ years) career subsequent to this where I earn a lot of money and have no satisfaction. Hence the career change to what I always wanted to do, but was told (erroneously) I would never be able to. I'm fortunate that the non satisfying but well paying job is currently well paying my mortgage, which is better than so many others out there, but....
I didn't reply to my earlier facetious reply, but I will just comment now....
Flintstone, please don't take this the wrong way, because actually I agree with you, but I simply don't see another way - which clearly you do.
And then earlier....
Aye, there's the rub....it is indeed, always someone elses problem to sort and even those whining about people saying it's someone elses problem, are - ironically - saying "it's someone elses problem".
Seriously, I'm not on a wind up, but I'd love to have sensible and realistic suggestions as to what you'd have a [generic] newbie with C.250 hours TT on Pistons and the worlds most expensive cheap blue plastic book should do, if not 'buy' their way forward into somewhere like RYR, in the current climate, given that we're repeatedly told there's no FI jobs out there, as mentioned earlier, you probably need 400tt to have any hope of a air taxi role and so on? It ISN'T ideal, I don't think there is ANYONE out there jumping for joy that they can spend another £30k, but give us an option.... (bear in mind I already AM working in a different industry, trying to stay current and ride the storm out...)
Great post....absolutely spot on. You hit the nail squarely on the head when you say that it's not the dream job, but it's the best chance of ANY job in the current market (unless, paraphrasing Dreamshiner - you meet the chief pilots daughter and ...well...you know...)
I too spent a great fun three years getting drunk and chasing girls at Uni....I built a very good (10+ years) career subsequent to this where I earn a lot of money and have no satisfaction. Hence the career change to what I always wanted to do, but was told (erroneously) I would never be able to. I'm fortunate that the non satisfying but well paying job is currently well paying my mortgage, which is better than so many others out there, but....
I didn't reply to my earlier facetious reply, but I will just comment now....
Flintstone, please don't take this the wrong way, because actually I agree with you, but I simply don't see another way - which clearly you do.
Clanger,
Excellent post. I don't feel that any of your suggestions are too silly. Crack on with them old bean, let me know how you get on.
Excellent post. I don't feel that any of your suggestions are too silly. Crack on with them old bean, let me know how you get on.
Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for any pilot (or indeed anyone) that finds themselves out of work but these cries for someone else to sort the problem are sadly typical. It's always someone elses fault.
Seriously, I'm not on a wind up, but I'd love to have sensible and realistic suggestions as to what you'd have a [generic] newbie with C.250 hours TT on Pistons and the worlds most expensive cheap blue plastic book should do, if not 'buy' their way forward into somewhere like RYR, in the current climate, given that we're repeatedly told there's no FI jobs out there, as mentioned earlier, you probably need 400tt to have any hope of a air taxi role and so on? It ISN'T ideal, I don't think there is ANYONE out there jumping for joy that they can spend another £30k, but give us an option.... (bear in mind I already AM working in a different industry, trying to stay current and ride the storm out...)
Guest
Posts: n/a
clanger. (No wind-up from me either).
The answer, which nobody wants to hear, is the one that got many pilots where they are now. It's much slower (but also cheaper) than the £100,000 RHS yet still exists for those who are prepared to go that route. Air taxi, instructing, survey, photography.....these jobs have not suddenly ceased to exist although at the moment there aren't many around. Then again the same can be said of airline positions for newbies. The 'cycle' in our industry is not a new phenomena so it's a case of having to wait for the upswing as thousands have done before. Why can't/won't people do it now?
Instant gratification. The training industry has done a pretty good job of convincing wannabees that it's the way to go. Borrow a huge chunk of money and one year from now you can be wearing a shiny uniform. It's as simple as applying for credit in any other walk of life and they are drawn in with seemingly little thought about how they'll service the loan. People don't take out a mortgage without ensuring they can meet their monthly payments so why on earth do they saddle themselves with this debt with no guarantee of a job?
Then gaining the licence becomes a two-edged sword. Yes, it's what everybody strives for but once it's achieved it signals the time of having to make loan repayments and how do we do that? Borrow more!
Call me old fashioned but I gained my PPL, saved until I had enough to undergo my CPL training, became an instructor, moved on to flying SEP and MEP aircraft, added ME/IR and ATPL subjects when I could afford them and on the way politely declined my employers invitation to buy ratings on turbo-props and later, jets. It wasn't all that long ago and I'll admit I envied those ahead of me on the ladder but I knew that if I bought my way in I'd be contributing to the problem. For years I sympathised with people facing the same dilemma and have put time and effort into mentoring where I could. Not for thanks or kudos but because that's what people did for me and I enjoyed putting something back.
Not everyone thinks the same though, do they? Over the last few weeks it has become clear to me that the very same people who were complaining not so long ago about 'having' to buy their jobs now won't help the next wave of wannabees, even those joining their own company. I'm disappointed to find that this is, for me, the last straw. After years of banging the drum and helping out where I could why should I help (assuming I could, which I can't) those who will buy their first job only to turn their backs on the next batch of their 'colleagues'?
It might sound callous but after sixteen years in the industry I'm tiring of hearing people complain while those who contributed to the problem quietly sidle away and those doing the complaining will make their own contribution to the problem and probably turn deaf later on when asked to help.
Edited to add. Or there's always the route you're taking (hopefully not for long) which was also very common, having one or more jobs to pay the bills and building hours when you can. Is it glamorous? No, and there's another reason few people will do it.
The answer, which nobody wants to hear, is the one that got many pilots where they are now. It's much slower (but also cheaper) than the £100,000 RHS yet still exists for those who are prepared to go that route. Air taxi, instructing, survey, photography.....these jobs have not suddenly ceased to exist although at the moment there aren't many around. Then again the same can be said of airline positions for newbies. The 'cycle' in our industry is not a new phenomena so it's a case of having to wait for the upswing as thousands have done before. Why can't/won't people do it now?
Instant gratification. The training industry has done a pretty good job of convincing wannabees that it's the way to go. Borrow a huge chunk of money and one year from now you can be wearing a shiny uniform. It's as simple as applying for credit in any other walk of life and they are drawn in with seemingly little thought about how they'll service the loan. People don't take out a mortgage without ensuring they can meet their monthly payments so why on earth do they saddle themselves with this debt with no guarantee of a job?
Then gaining the licence becomes a two-edged sword. Yes, it's what everybody strives for but once it's achieved it signals the time of having to make loan repayments and how do we do that? Borrow more!
Call me old fashioned but I gained my PPL, saved until I had enough to undergo my CPL training, became an instructor, moved on to flying SEP and MEP aircraft, added ME/IR and ATPL subjects when I could afford them and on the way politely declined my employers invitation to buy ratings on turbo-props and later, jets. It wasn't all that long ago and I'll admit I envied those ahead of me on the ladder but I knew that if I bought my way in I'd be contributing to the problem. For years I sympathised with people facing the same dilemma and have put time and effort into mentoring where I could. Not for thanks or kudos but because that's what people did for me and I enjoyed putting something back.
Not everyone thinks the same though, do they? Over the last few weeks it has become clear to me that the very same people who were complaining not so long ago about 'having' to buy their jobs now won't help the next wave of wannabees, even those joining their own company. I'm disappointed to find that this is, for me, the last straw. After years of banging the drum and helping out where I could why should I help (assuming I could, which I can't) those who will buy their first job only to turn their backs on the next batch of their 'colleagues'?
It might sound callous but after sixteen years in the industry I'm tiring of hearing people complain while those who contributed to the problem quietly sidle away and those doing the complaining will make their own contribution to the problem and probably turn deaf later on when asked to help.
Edited to add. Or there's always the route you're taking (hopefully not for long) which was also very common, having one or more jobs to pay the bills and building hours when you can. Is it glamorous? No, and there's another reason few people will do it.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 49
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flintstone,
An excellent post and one I [generally] agree on. For what it's worth, I've been busy telling as many newbies as I can that every penny they can pay towards their training from their own cash, is probably worth 2 pennies in borrowed cash.
It also perplexes me how many people are prepared to jump into what until not so very long ago was mortgage levels of debt without consideration of the consequence, either on lifestyle while it's paid back, or on what happens if they can't get the job.
Like you, I didn't start my training until I knew I could pay for it all, but whilst that does give me some freedom, I'm also tied to the fact I HAVE to get a decent income, or the cost I've paid just isnt' worth it. This is one of the key points - to get ANY of the kind of jobs you mention, you're talking significant expenditure now and I just don't think that - noble as the serving of an "apprenticeship" is - the salaries afforded by air taxi, instructing etc just don't cut it - and certainly won't pay any loans back.
And so anyone finishing now, is faced either with a choice of trying to find a non existent instructing/air taxi jobs that won't pay their bills or the RYR route, which will cost them more, but at least edge them closer to the end goal. As MikeHotel alludes to, right now - you don't HAVE any choice....it's RYR or nothing...
Of course, you are right, in that they'll get there and then **** on the next bunch coming through. The conclusion of several generations of which leads us to where we are right now....sad but true. And it's this attitude which has allowed the likes of MO'L to divide and conquer so simply....
An excellent post and one I [generally] agree on. For what it's worth, I've been busy telling as many newbies as I can that every penny they can pay towards their training from their own cash, is probably worth 2 pennies in borrowed cash.
It also perplexes me how many people are prepared to jump into what until not so very long ago was mortgage levels of debt without consideration of the consequence, either on lifestyle while it's paid back, or on what happens if they can't get the job.
Like you, I didn't start my training until I knew I could pay for it all, but whilst that does give me some freedom, I'm also tied to the fact I HAVE to get a decent income, or the cost I've paid just isnt' worth it. This is one of the key points - to get ANY of the kind of jobs you mention, you're talking significant expenditure now and I just don't think that - noble as the serving of an "apprenticeship" is - the salaries afforded by air taxi, instructing etc just don't cut it - and certainly won't pay any loans back.
And so anyone finishing now, is faced either with a choice of trying to find a non existent instructing/air taxi jobs that won't pay their bills or the RYR route, which will cost them more, but at least edge them closer to the end goal. As MikeHotel alludes to, right now - you don't HAVE any choice....it's RYR or nothing...
Of course, you are right, in that they'll get there and then **** on the next bunch coming through. The conclusion of several generations of which leads us to where we are right now....sad but true. And it's this attitude which has allowed the likes of MO'L to divide and conquer so simply....
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry for the off topic post but excrab…
CRM has been around for a very long time in various incarnations. It was only formalised in the late 1970s and with good reason.
I can only assume that your idea of having 2 crew being akin to having two engines is a tongue in cheek remark ? The difference between flying something on your own and doing it safely is blindingly obvious.
The reason for having 2 crew is not ” in case one of them dies “ and a 737 is not a citation or a king air and cant be flown as such.
CRM has been around for a very long time in various incarnations. It was only formalised in the late 1970s and with good reason.
I can only assume that your idea of having 2 crew being akin to having two engines is a tongue in cheek remark ? The difference between flying something on your own and doing it safely is blindingly obvious.
The reason for having 2 crew is not ” in case one of them dies “ and a 737 is not a citation or a king air and cant be flown as such.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason for two crew is essentially redundancy.
Skyflaps - if you are not on a wind up then I think you do not appreciate the work we all put in to get into an aeroplane.
Back to topic - anyone who is thinking of joining Ryanair try not to. It is miserable.
Skyflaps - if you are not on a wind up then I think you do not appreciate the work we all put in to get into an aeroplane.
Back to topic - anyone who is thinking of joining Ryanair try not to. It is miserable.
Pg wing tips,
It is off topic, but I'm going to disagree with you.
Originally aircraft such DC3s carried two pilots.
The fact that they were ferried single crew by the ATA during the war proves that the two pilots were not required to operate the aircraft.
You only have to read "Fate is the Hunter" to see that CRM effectively did not exist.
The reason for having the two pilots was to re-assure the travelling public that they were safe in the event of pilot incapacitation, and also because the early aircraft had no autopilots.
The 737 requires two pilots because of certification due to it's size. Other than that any competent B737 pilot could operate one single crew in the same way that a Citation can be operated single crew, if a few adjustments were made to the position of some of the controls to save having to reach across the flight deck.
I'm not saying that it would be as safe as an proper two crew operation, I am just pointing out that CRM and monitoring is not the reason that we have two pilots. CRM came after the requirement to have two pilots and was developed to make them more effective as a team.
It is off topic, but I'm going to disagree with you.
Originally aircraft such DC3s carried two pilots.
The fact that they were ferried single crew by the ATA during the war proves that the two pilots were not required to operate the aircraft.
You only have to read "Fate is the Hunter" to see that CRM effectively did not exist.
The reason for having the two pilots was to re-assure the travelling public that they were safe in the event of pilot incapacitation, and also because the early aircraft had no autopilots.
The 737 requires two pilots because of certification due to it's size. Other than that any competent B737 pilot could operate one single crew in the same way that a Citation can be operated single crew, if a few adjustments were made to the position of some of the controls to save having to reach across the flight deck.
I'm not saying that it would be as safe as an proper two crew operation, I am just pointing out that CRM and monitoring is not the reason that we have two pilots. CRM came after the requirement to have two pilots and was developed to make them more effective as a team.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flintstone said:
If it's that bad come over to the dark side. In our world we have leather, silk and gold everything, posh plates, they feed us and the toilet is still free.
If it's that bad come over to the dark side. In our world we have leather, silk and gold everything, posh plates, they feed us and the toilet is still free.
(albeit on a terrible fleet)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, last off post topic blurb
Excrab
Yes I agree with you by moving some controls you would be able to operate the 737 or the likes of as single pilot ac. But for how long, 2, 3, 4, 5 sectors/hrs/ turn arounds, not to mention eating using the toilet etc. It is more about the premise of your argument that the second modern day crew member is purely there as a redundancy which I don’t totally agree with.
I would argue that there are two pilots because the work load at times can demand as much, not the other way round by saying that regulation is the only reason we have two pilots due to a perception from the past.
Historically I understand what you are saying about having 1 or 2 pilots. It would seem that many things were done ( especially during the war ) out of necessity / technology and or the knowledge of the time. It shows that 1 crew ops can be done but to what level of safety is another thing all together.
Ultimately, I agree with you that CRM is not the reason we have two pilots, but more a product of having two pilots. It was formally introduced in part because it was realised that you can’t fly modern jet aircraft on your own. Both pilots needed to be in the loop, the captain only airlines scrapes of the past are solid evidence of this.
I am also not totally convinced that prior to 1980ish no form of crew cooperation existed. Like many things in our wonderful world of aviation it takes a great deal of time to formally introduce things that some pilots/companies have been doing for a while.
Excrab
Yes I agree with you by moving some controls you would be able to operate the 737 or the likes of as single pilot ac. But for how long, 2, 3, 4, 5 sectors/hrs/ turn arounds, not to mention eating using the toilet etc. It is more about the premise of your argument that the second modern day crew member is purely there as a redundancy which I don’t totally agree with.
I would argue that there are two pilots because the work load at times can demand as much, not the other way round by saying that regulation is the only reason we have two pilots due to a perception from the past.
Historically I understand what you are saying about having 1 or 2 pilots. It would seem that many things were done ( especially during the war ) out of necessity / technology and or the knowledge of the time. It shows that 1 crew ops can be done but to what level of safety is another thing all together.
Ultimately, I agree with you that CRM is not the reason we have two pilots, but more a product of having two pilots. It was formally introduced in part because it was realised that you can’t fly modern jet aircraft on your own. Both pilots needed to be in the loop, the captain only airlines scrapes of the past are solid evidence of this.
I am also not totally convinced that prior to 1980ish no form of crew cooperation existed. Like many things in our wonderful world of aviation it takes a great deal of time to formally introduce things that some pilots/companies have been doing for a while.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
eagerbeaver 1
Ok - I come clean here - if I managed to wind up some of the newly graduated whiners then I succeeded,
to the respectable old and bold........... peace.
Clanger32, Flintstone, Mikehotel152 - If Im still entitled to an opinion may I say to you - awesome posts!
After the 2nd World War, during a tough recession, Britain had a poster campaign in the traditional British Spirit which read ' Stay calm move on.....'
To all the whiners out there, especially the newbies - for goodness sake 'Saty calm and move on' and for all our sanity - please........... stop whining. Let Ryan Air be.......... and others too for that matter.
I am just short of 1000hrs and I have not received a single cent for my flying work. For the time being I refeuse to pay for a rating too - but I may have to eat my words in the future. Im in danger of loosing my house because of the way things are but they're bound to improve and in the meantime I'll use my two hands to get cash somehow, even if its cutting the neighbour's grass.
Just for the record..... Pilots are highly trained individuals with tremendous skill achieved through incerdible dedeication, talent and hard work. There's not a day that goes by that I dont invest time trying to learn more and improve my ability. I take pride in working / flying with other pilots, learning from them , and operating to the most professional standard possible. To all you guys ... good luck!
Ok - I come clean here - if I managed to wind up some of the newly graduated whiners then I succeeded,
to the respectable old and bold........... peace.
Clanger32, Flintstone, Mikehotel152 - If Im still entitled to an opinion may I say to you - awesome posts!
After the 2nd World War, during a tough recession, Britain had a poster campaign in the traditional British Spirit which read ' Stay calm move on.....'
To all the whiners out there, especially the newbies - for goodness sake 'Saty calm and move on' and for all our sanity - please........... stop whining. Let Ryan Air be.......... and others too for that matter.
I am just short of 1000hrs and I have not received a single cent for my flying work. For the time being I refeuse to pay for a rating too - but I may have to eat my words in the future. Im in danger of loosing my house because of the way things are but they're bound to improve and in the meantime I'll use my two hands to get cash somehow, even if its cutting the neighbour's grass.
Just for the record..... Pilots are highly trained individuals with tremendous skill achieved through incerdible dedeication, talent and hard work. There's not a day that goes by that I dont invest time trying to learn more and improve my ability. I take pride in working / flying with other pilots, learning from them , and operating to the most professional standard possible. To all you guys ... good luck!