Ryanair recruitment-facts
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I understand the deal, what I'm saying is that over time this profession will be destroyed. The way to keep this job attractive will be to use unions to force companies to pay a decent salary, that's the only way to keep managers at bay. Any ceo of any company would pay zero money if they could. Ryanair is one of the major trend-setters in the industry and unionization seems pretty far off. Fair enough, if paying for your job is the only option then take it but once you're in business join a union and grow a pair. There will always be a reason to keep your head low and your tongue brown but for the long term your job will be destroyed. Aviation is cornered right now, customers aren't prepared to pay for tickets, the economy is shot and if it gets going again oil will go through the roof. Finally we have the green movement busting to make us all go away.
I think flying is here to stay, that part might not be a problem. The question is will the people driving the planes be cowed MPL cadets 75k i debt making less than a taxi driver, with no pension, no loss of license sleeping out of their cars at the airport.
I'm sure the guys who flew in the 60s are shaking their heads at this career today just as I'm sure I'll be shaking my head when I retire at the **** the new guys have to put up with. Most unions seem to exist for their own benefit and the members get the crumbs but it's at least a force to oppose management. I think the reason it hasn't happened in Ryanair so far is that people have generally been pretty pleased with the situation. Now it's no more Mr nice guy from the company and they're about to start clamping down on the workers. Maybe if it becomes bad enough the union will start becoming an option as jumping ship for another company is hard in these times. I'm sure O'Leary knows this though so he probably pushes people just hard to keep the unions out of the picture and from what I can tell he can push pretty hard.
I think flying is here to stay, that part might not be a problem. The question is will the people driving the planes be cowed MPL cadets 75k i debt making less than a taxi driver, with no pension, no loss of license sleeping out of their cars at the airport.
I'm sure the guys who flew in the 60s are shaking their heads at this career today just as I'm sure I'll be shaking my head when I retire at the **** the new guys have to put up with. Most unions seem to exist for their own benefit and the members get the crumbs but it's at least a force to oppose management. I think the reason it hasn't happened in Ryanair so far is that people have generally been pretty pleased with the situation. Now it's no more Mr nice guy from the company and they're about to start clamping down on the workers. Maybe if it becomes bad enough the union will start becoming an option as jumping ship for another company is hard in these times. I'm sure O'Leary knows this though so he probably pushes people just hard to keep the unions out of the picture and from what I can tell he can push pretty hard.
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The point about being £50k in debt....no, you DON'T have to take the debt. However, I deliberately tried to guess at what the average fATPL costs to obtain. There are some who have paid >£100k, some who have no debt at all (fortunately, me!) and most are somewhere in the middle....My guess is that average would be C.£50k...
And again, I agree Gnirren...The Ts and Cs on offer for this job are no longer anywhere near as good as they should be when you consider the job. But it IS simple supply and demand....it IS still an aspirational job for many people and whilst there are [more than] enough people to meet demand, there will always be someone to drive down Ts and Cs.
Newbies CAN NOT influence this, other than by falling on their own swords, but no-one in their right mind would do this. The only people that can are those IN the jobs. But as you very rightly say "There will always be a reason to keep your head low and your tongue brown"
Right now FR IS the only game in town, so you play O'Learys game, or not at all....what would you choose, really, if you had £50k of debt [rhetorical question]???
And again, I agree Gnirren...The Ts and Cs on offer for this job are no longer anywhere near as good as they should be when you consider the job. But it IS simple supply and demand....it IS still an aspirational job for many people and whilst there are [more than] enough people to meet demand, there will always be someone to drive down Ts and Cs.
Newbies CAN NOT influence this, other than by falling on their own swords, but no-one in their right mind would do this. The only people that can are those IN the jobs. But as you very rightly say "There will always be a reason to keep your head low and your tongue brown"
Right now FR IS the only game in town, so you play O'Learys game, or not at all....what would you choose, really, if you had £50k of debt [rhetorical question]???
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Originally Posted by Clanger32
Newbies CAN NOT influence this...
The law of supply and demand dictates that if there are no buyers then the seller (operator) will be forced to lower their price or (ideally in this case) stop charging.
The old school captains won't strike or withdraw their training services on the principle that they didn't pay their way up so why should they? The newer captains and FO's won't strike because they did pay their way so don't see why they should help their colleagues.
I asked this specific question in another thread and not ONE of the job buyers volunteered an answer which should tell you all you need to know about their views on solidarity.
Originally Posted by Clanger 32
so you play O'Learys game, or not at all....what would you choose, really, if you had £50k of debt [rhetorical question]???
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Originally Posted by Flintstone
They can.
They can.
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The rip-off machine
The problem is that the debate should have moved on the the next level (down). What I mean is, all the old arguments about people not paying for type-ratings, not signing up for sub-standard conditions, etc, are over. There is always somebody willing to pay and to work for nothing.
The sad reality is that the image and the expectations of a career in aviation are out of kilter with the reality. That feeds the pilot supply chain. Even worse, Ryanair have managed to find a method of making substantial sums of money from those who want a job.
Rumour has it that the price of a B737-800 Ryanair type rating will shortly be raised to 30,000. Remember, to get the type-rating only requires YOUR money. You get it with a limited contract and no guarantee of a job - delicately phrased. The next contract - line training - when it arrives, comes with no guarantee of a job either.
The money being made is now so substantial that it has become a business centre of significance. Ryanair will now continue to build up the pool of trainees "waiting for a slot" to move on until we have discussions here (like has happened before) about people waiting for a year in the hope of a possible opportunity for line training. They also have to find the money to renew their rating in the interim, including travel and accommodation in EMA.
Where does this end? It ends up with people who have big debts being unable to find any job at all for years. That prospect is not too far away. But you won't be able to warn any of them.
The sad reality is that the image and the expectations of a career in aviation are out of kilter with the reality. That feeds the pilot supply chain. Even worse, Ryanair have managed to find a method of making substantial sums of money from those who want a job.
Rumour has it that the price of a B737-800 Ryanair type rating will shortly be raised to 30,000. Remember, to get the type-rating only requires YOUR money. You get it with a limited contract and no guarantee of a job - delicately phrased. The next contract - line training - when it arrives, comes with no guarantee of a job either.
The money being made is now so substantial that it has become a business centre of significance. Ryanair will now continue to build up the pool of trainees "waiting for a slot" to move on until we have discussions here (like has happened before) about people waiting for a year in the hope of a possible opportunity for line training. They also have to find the money to renew their rating in the interim, including travel and accommodation in EMA.
Where does this end? It ends up with people who have big debts being unable to find any job at all for years. That prospect is not too far away. But you won't be able to warn any of them.
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I like planes 
If the 'now now now, me me me' brigade were to lower their (initial) expectations and work their way up through the profession instead of demanding the RH seat on an airliner from the off the problem wouldn't be so pronounced.
People gambled that they'd immediately get such a job upon completion of their training. They borrowed money which they could only afford to repay if they hit the proverbial job jackpot. Surely anybody doing their research beforehand would have realised that a 'lesser' job was always a possibility? Is this any different to those who borrowed heavily to gamble on the property market and now find themselves in trouble? Should we bail them out too?
Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for any pilot (or indeed anyone) that finds themselves out of work but these cries for someone else to sort the problem are sadly typical. It's always someone elses fault.
Edit: Phantasm, Reluctant, whatever name you're posting under today. I'm not bitter at all, why should I be? I have exactly the job I want and it's as safe as any is likely to be at the moment. If you said I was tired however you'd be right. Tired of seeing people who still won't accept that someone else isn't going to come along and bail them out. Many do, some don't. Those that take responsibilty and get on with it have my respect. The bleating sheep just give me a headache.
If the 'now now now, me me me' brigade were to lower their (initial) expectations and work their way up through the profession instead of demanding the RH seat on an airliner from the off the problem wouldn't be so pronounced.
People gambled that they'd immediately get such a job upon completion of their training. They borrowed money which they could only afford to repay if they hit the proverbial job jackpot. Surely anybody doing their research beforehand would have realised that a 'lesser' job was always a possibility? Is this any different to those who borrowed heavily to gamble on the property market and now find themselves in trouble? Should we bail them out too?
Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for any pilot (or indeed anyone) that finds themselves out of work but these cries for someone else to sort the problem are sadly typical. It's always someone elses fault.
Edit: Phantasm, Reluctant, whatever name you're posting under today. I'm not bitter at all, why should I be? I have exactly the job I want and it's as safe as any is likely to be at the moment. If you said I was tired however you'd be right. Tired of seeing people who still won't accept that someone else isn't going to come along and bail them out. Many do, some don't. Those that take responsibilty and get on with it have my respect. The bleating sheep just give me a headache.
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Flintstone
It's probably because the general standard of students coming out of CTC and OAA are of sufficient high quality to be able to move directly into the right seat of a Jet.
Expectations aside its the ability of a cadet that gets him or her into that seat.
The selection criteria and tests weed out those who are not ready, or who are ill prepared.
Why should a recent fATPL have to go through the progression from Air Taxi, Regional carrier to Airline.
Today there is no reason to take that route as Jet jobs are available to those who are prepared to pay (natural selection) while those who are unable post childish remarks based upon hearsay on forums like this.
Unfortunately the times are hard and there will be no free type ratings for many years to come. (if ever there was such a thing in the last 10 years)
To those who perpetually knock Ryanair, please give it a rest as you are now showing signs of much repetition and sour grapes.
Its a free society so allow people to make their own informed choices.
If and when cadets pass the RYR training course and line training they are offered positions throughout the network, so those who say jobs are not available at the end of training do not know what they are writing about.
Recruitment is based upon company needs and is not profit driven as some will have you believe.
Its a new cold hard world out there since late 2008, and jobs of any kind are hard to come by for low experienced pilots, whom I sincerly wish good fortune in their search.
Remember that principles do not pay bills.
It's probably because the general standard of students coming out of CTC and OAA are of sufficient high quality to be able to move directly into the right seat of a Jet.
Expectations aside its the ability of a cadet that gets him or her into that seat.
The selection criteria and tests weed out those who are not ready, or who are ill prepared.
Why should a recent fATPL have to go through the progression from Air Taxi, Regional carrier to Airline.
Today there is no reason to take that route as Jet jobs are available to those who are prepared to pay (natural selection) while those who are unable post childish remarks based upon hearsay on forums like this.
Unfortunately the times are hard and there will be no free type ratings for many years to come. (if ever there was such a thing in the last 10 years)
To those who perpetually knock Ryanair, please give it a rest as you are now showing signs of much repetition and sour grapes.
Its a free society so allow people to make their own informed choices.
If and when cadets pass the RYR training course and line training they are offered positions throughout the network, so those who say jobs are not available at the end of training do not know what they are writing about.
Recruitment is based upon company needs and is not profit driven as some will have you believe.
Its a new cold hard world out there since late 2008, and jobs of any kind are hard to come by for low experienced pilots, whom I sincerly wish good fortune in their search.
Remember that principles do not pay bills.
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In what respect is only those who can afford it 'Natural Selection'. Hardly survival of the fittest in terms of skill, just survival of those with the daddies with the deepest pockets.
SSTR's are not the best thing in the world clearly - but what gets me is those who will happily whore themselves to the likes of Air Asia et al when paying to fly.
SSTR's are not the best thing in the world clearly - but what gets me is those who will happily whore themselves to the likes of Air Asia et al when paying to fly.
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Originally Posted by Day_Dreamer
Why should a recent fATPL have to go through the progression from Air Taxi, Regional carrier to Airline.
Originally Posted by Day_Dreamer
Unfortunately the times are hard and there will be no free type ratings for many years to come. (if ever there was such a thing in the last 10 years)
You see this is the problem. The training organisations hard sell the airlines and nothing else. Those airlines using cadets who pay their own TR or worse still the 'pay-to-fly' ballast that I Like Planes describes encourage it and people get into the business with rose tinted spectacles, oblivious to the many other and more rewarding branches of the business. Initially those don't pay as much but there are very, very few occupations in which you are not expected to serve time before the mast. Why should aviation be different?
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I have met more pilots with less jet handling ability who have come through the air taxi, regional airline route than those who went straight on to jets. (obviously)
During Sim assessments many have failed from both sides, but there were significantly more who had developed bad habits early in their careers who would have had difficulty converting to a large jet type, their backgrounds were from the air taxi and turboprop routes.
As to your employer with whom I have had a working relationship, until recently they did not take on pilots of low experience, and I would not expect employees with those hours to pay for their rating, and certainly not pay for subsequent aircraft changes, bonding yes.
Flintstone, it appears to me that you consider LEP's as excess baggage, so how do you rate your own cadets from OAA ?
Also from the bitter tone in your post I might assume that you have faced rejection somewhere in your career which you considered unjustified.
Serving time before the mast is an interesting statement as it was certainly what most of us did in the past, but times have changed and so must our attitudes.
From my industry connections the standards of direct jet F/O's are generally high, and the SSTR route should not be maligned, especially by those with a chip on their shoulder.
Its the current norm, and people will pay in one form or another for the forseeable future.
There are less daddies with big pockets these days, its called credit crunch but the majority of SSTR's are helped in some ways by their families or have taken on loans to reach their goal.
They are jumping over other fATPL pilots who do not have the monies, this is true, but there is no reason to decry those who have gone down this route just because you can't afford to pay out the monies for the extra rating.
Would I pay for a child of mine to go Integrated then a type rating, providing I had the ability to make the loan and repayments your damn right I would.
Would I help a person who wanted to advance his job prospects in any way the answer is again YES.
This is natural selection, and I am sorry to say today if you cant pay to get on that first rung then its join the 1000's of CV's on the HR desk.
You need an edge to get that first job so dont malign those who take the SSTR route.
They take the risk not the employer, and those I have had dealings with are very highly motivated and skilled.
During Sim assessments many have failed from both sides, but there were significantly more who had developed bad habits early in their careers who would have had difficulty converting to a large jet type, their backgrounds were from the air taxi and turboprop routes.
As to your employer with whom I have had a working relationship, until recently they did not take on pilots of low experience, and I would not expect employees with those hours to pay for their rating, and certainly not pay for subsequent aircraft changes, bonding yes.
Flintstone, it appears to me that you consider LEP's as excess baggage, so how do you rate your own cadets from OAA ?
Also from the bitter tone in your post I might assume that you have faced rejection somewhere in your career which you considered unjustified.
Serving time before the mast is an interesting statement as it was certainly what most of us did in the past, but times have changed and so must our attitudes.
From my industry connections the standards of direct jet F/O's are generally high, and the SSTR route should not be maligned, especially by those with a chip on their shoulder.
Its the current norm, and people will pay in one form or another for the forseeable future.
There are less daddies with big pockets these days, its called credit crunch but the majority of SSTR's are helped in some ways by their families or have taken on loans to reach their goal.
They are jumping over other fATPL pilots who do not have the monies, this is true, but there is no reason to decry those who have gone down this route just because you can't afford to pay out the monies for the extra rating.
Would I pay for a child of mine to go Integrated then a type rating, providing I had the ability to make the loan and repayments your damn right I would.
Would I help a person who wanted to advance his job prospects in any way the answer is again YES.
This is natural selection, and I am sorry to say today if you cant pay to get on that first rung then its join the 1000's of CV's on the HR desk.
You need an edge to get that first job so dont malign those who take the SSTR route.
They take the risk not the employer, and those I have had dealings with are very highly motivated and skilled.
Last edited by Day_Dreamer; 22nd Feb 2009 at 18:31.
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You have to be a scab to accept employment with RyanAir and their work conditions. This scheme lowers completely the standards of this industry. I truly have no respect for any new FOs joining their rank.
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DD.
No cadets whatsoever at my company, from OAA or anywhere else. I've never been turned down for a job either. Thanks for the concern though
Our experiences obviously differ. I have found that pilots from a more varied background do better in the bizjet line of work than (generally) those from the airlines. Jet handling can be taught. Initiative and the ability to 'get on with it' less so. Low time pilots who thought they were being groomed for the airlines have performed particularly poorly perhaps because they see anything other than straight to the RH seat of a Boeing or Airbus as a comedown.
Horses for courses I suppose but the latter seem a bit slow at picking up on the other aspects of our operations.
Edit to clarify. I could have bought a type rating, I chose not to. Amateur psychologist on the side?
No cadets whatsoever at my company, from OAA or anywhere else. I've never been turned down for a job either. Thanks for the concern though
Our experiences obviously differ. I have found that pilots from a more varied background do better in the bizjet line of work than (generally) those from the airlines. Jet handling can be taught. Initiative and the ability to 'get on with it' less so. Low time pilots who thought they were being groomed for the airlines have performed particularly poorly perhaps because they see anything other than straight to the RH seat of a Boeing or Airbus as a comedown.
Horses for courses I suppose but the latter seem a bit slow at picking up on the other aspects of our operations.
Edit to clarify. I could have bought a type rating, I chose not to. Amateur psychologist on the side?
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Remember being an airline pilot is not classed as a 'professional occupation', but merely as 'technical occupation' (Become a Magistrate - Guidance Notes).
You can hardly expect the benefits of professional employment as 'blue collar' workers! Pilots are classed with, amongst others, air traffic controllers, train drivers and salesmen.
It's not how much you earn, but your standing that counts.
No wonder pilots are always moaning - they have ambitions above their status!
SITW
(I have a 'professional occupation', but lowered myself for several years to work as an airline pilot)
You can hardly expect the benefits of professional employment as 'blue collar' workers! Pilots are classed with, amongst others, air traffic controllers, train drivers and salesmen.
It's not how much you earn, but your standing that counts.
No wonder pilots are always moaning - they have ambitions above their status!
SITW
(I have a 'professional occupation', but lowered myself for several years to work as an airline pilot)
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And what airline do you work for Bubi? You better look at all those devout union members who rolled over and took up the old wazoo on the advice of their MECs when pay and benefits were cut
Do you consider employees from UAL, DAL, NW, to name a few, for lowering the bar as they are working for lower wages?
Do you consider employees from UAL, DAL, NW, to name a few, for lowering the bar as they are working for lower wages?
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"It's probably because the general standard of students coming out of CTC and OAA are of sufficient high quality to be able to move directly into the right seat of a Jet.
Expectations aside its the ability of a cadet that gets him or her into that seat.
The selection criteria and tests weed out those who are not ready, or who are ill prepared.
Why should a recent fATPL have to go through the progression from Air Taxi, Regional carrier to Airline."
What a load of tosh. A brand new fATPL holder knows jack sh*t. Theyre there for the pure and simple reason that theyre cheap. Like everything in life, money is the way of the world.
I remember the first time I flew right seat in a King Air, shortly after gaining my fATPL - The learning curve went so steap I honestly thought I was a hinderence to the poor guy sitting next to me. Plonked in the right seat of a jet at 3 times the speed, god knows what kind of liability I would have posed!
Expectations aside its the ability of a cadet that gets him or her into that seat.
The selection criteria and tests weed out those who are not ready, or who are ill prepared.
Why should a recent fATPL have to go through the progression from Air Taxi, Regional carrier to Airline."
What a load of tosh. A brand new fATPL holder knows jack sh*t. Theyre there for the pure and simple reason that theyre cheap. Like everything in life, money is the way of the world.
I remember the first time I flew right seat in a King Air, shortly after gaining my fATPL - The learning curve went so steap I honestly thought I was a hinderence to the poor guy sitting next to me. Plonked in the right seat of a jet at 3 times the speed, god knows what kind of liability I would have posed!
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Phantasm,
Indeed, thankfully I know my limits!
I remember going for an interview for a Shorts 360 FO's position with only 300 hours and the guy interviewing me said "we dont want you disappearing, we want you to stay the 2 years(bond) as realistically it'll be 2 years before your actually of any worth to us!". Slightly harsh words...but true. Reality is always tough at times...
Indeed, thankfully I know my limits!
I remember going for an interview for a Shorts 360 FO's position with only 300 hours and the guy interviewing me said "we dont want you disappearing, we want you to stay the 2 years(bond) as realistically it'll be 2 years before your actually of any worth to us!". Slightly harsh words...but true. Reality is always tough at times...
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Originally Posted by I like planes
a fraternal handshake between BRK's kiddies
I suppose that's what irritates me about the whole SSTR thing. For years the bizjet market was the best kept secret in aviation and if truth be known most people in the airlines looked down on it. A small price to pay to keep the secret imho, one gladly paid. Then what happened? Airline T&C's began to degrade and airline crew started to enviously eye some fancy machinery parked our side of the apron. Fair enough, keep your voice down and you can come in but keep schtum about it, ok? "Righto" they said and then what happened? Some GA/bizjet operators then saw that people were daft enough to buy their type ratings in the airline world so started charging and now it's harder for people to get started in 'our' arm of the business. There's a steady trickle of airline people posting in the bizjet forum making no secret of the fact that they'll buy their own type rating to get into the market, some of them with multi-thousand hours.
It's a bit like having pikeys* as neighbours. They bring down house prices and to add insult to injury the weeds from their garden spread to yours
* The appearance of the word 'pikey' in a RYR thread is pure coincidence
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MIKECR
There you go with supposition all over again, just because you had problems does not mean that every student has problems.
Today both CTC and OAA train their students using full motion simulators for their MCC and JOC courses and the hours in the sims usually 40 on average give a very good insight into the airline environment and workload required.
Many students passing through these courses have high levels of skill and knowledge which prepare them well for a jet environment.
In our company we have several LEP's and the training course approved by the CAA turns out some outstanding young pilots whom I am happy to fly with under any conditions.
These standards apply to any EU based airline and just because they are LEP's it does not mean that they are not skilled and competent.
The trainers have to sign off the student at several stages of their training and should there be an incident / accident they have to justify their training comments and checks to the relevent CAA.
Paying for training has been around for many years, I once paid for a piston rating so as to get employment after flying jets for several years and being made redundant when the airline closed.
FLINTSTONE.
You mentioned in your post NJE and this company has recently taken on several Cadet pilots straight out of OAA, so I may have misunderstood who employs you.
As far as Air taxi and Bizjet operations go, the feedback I have from two particular operators a high regard for their LEP's.
Bubi325
You use very emotive words which are best left out of this or any other forum.
Many of the LEP / Cadet pilots flying for Ryanair are certainly not strike breakers (Definition of SCAB) neither are they reducing anyone's T & C's, the job is offered with know limitations and working practices of which a prospective employee are fully aware, and it is their choice to go forward or to reject the offer.
Most of those offered a position take it, in full knowledge of what is expected of them. Many enjoy their time there and take advantage of the career offered to them, including training positions and commands.
Then they look elsewhere where pastures appear greener, with a wealth of experience under their belts.
I have said before T & C's were being eroded long before Ryanair started flying, they have just taken the bull by the horns and developed a business model that works !!
By and large those who work for them are happy, but of course many think that they should have a better deal and improved conditions, don't we all ??
Those joining RYR know upfront what to expect and those who Bleet and Moan should leave them alone.
There you go with supposition all over again, just because you had problems does not mean that every student has problems.
Today both CTC and OAA train their students using full motion simulators for their MCC and JOC courses and the hours in the sims usually 40 on average give a very good insight into the airline environment and workload required.
Many students passing through these courses have high levels of skill and knowledge which prepare them well for a jet environment.
In our company we have several LEP's and the training course approved by the CAA turns out some outstanding young pilots whom I am happy to fly with under any conditions.
These standards apply to any EU based airline and just because they are LEP's it does not mean that they are not skilled and competent.
The trainers have to sign off the student at several stages of their training and should there be an incident / accident they have to justify their training comments and checks to the relevent CAA.
Paying for training has been around for many years, I once paid for a piston rating so as to get employment after flying jets for several years and being made redundant when the airline closed.
FLINTSTONE.
You mentioned in your post NJE and this company has recently taken on several Cadet pilots straight out of OAA, so I may have misunderstood who employs you.
As far as Air taxi and Bizjet operations go, the feedback I have from two particular operators a high regard for their LEP's.
Bubi325
You use very emotive words which are best left out of this or any other forum.
Many of the LEP / Cadet pilots flying for Ryanair are certainly not strike breakers (Definition of SCAB) neither are they reducing anyone's T & C's, the job is offered with know limitations and working practices of which a prospective employee are fully aware, and it is their choice to go forward or to reject the offer.
Most of those offered a position take it, in full knowledge of what is expected of them. Many enjoy their time there and take advantage of the career offered to them, including training positions and commands.
Then they look elsewhere where pastures appear greener, with a wealth of experience under their belts.
I have said before T & C's were being eroded long before Ryanair started flying, they have just taken the bull by the horns and developed a business model that works !!
By and large those who work for them are happy, but of course many think that they should have a better deal and improved conditions, don't we all ??
Those joining RYR know upfront what to expect and those who Bleet and Moan should leave them alone.